I'm Not Worried If I Meet God And I'm Wrong On The Trinity

[Hamilton Porter]

The scholarly argument that Mormons aren't Christians is that Christianity has been defined by Nicaea for millennia (so they claim).

 

Then there's the trashier "different Jesus" argument advanced by pastors. Also the shock-valuable "Mormons believe Jesus is Lucifer's brother" argument. Because, of course, "Mormons aren't Christians because they don't believe Father/Son/Holy Ghost are homoousios" isn't going to get Billy riled up.

 

But the vast majority of Christendom does not understand the Trinity. They inadvertently explain modalism whenever they employe analogies. This goes for Catholics and Evangelicals (liberal Protestants don't care).

 

The Eastern Orthodox Church, I've been told, have a much simpler model of homoousios (there are two levels of homoousious, and they buy level one only, something like that). They don't subscribe to the Athanasian Creed and God's being "incomprehensible."

 

So Christianity is defined by a principle the vast majority of Christendom misunderstands. So how in hades is God going to judge someone for not believing in it? Well you can argue that they take it by faith even though they don't completely understand it. Well OK, what I believe about the Godhead as  a Mormon is the Trinity then, even though my understanding is lacking.

[3DOP]

deleted....too argumentative.

Edited October 11, 2014 by 3DOP

[Calm]

deleted....too argumentative.

I think I need to make that comment more often (not necessarily only this board, but elsewhere in my life)

[3DOP]

I think I need to make that comment more often (not necessarily only this board, but elsewhere in my life)

 

Oh man...I am the crankiest and most cynical employee.

 

But what I will try to say now in less strident tones, is that I don't want to be lumped, as a Catholic, with those who say the Nicene Trinity is easily arrived at from Scripture. If Hamilton Porter has any worries from my perspective, it would be if he rejected the authority of a Church which God approves, while the Son of His right hand is the Head. I accept the Nicene Trinity on authority and certainly not because I figured it out.

[The Nehor]

The scholarly argument that Mormons aren't Christians is that Christianity has been defined by Nicaea for millennia (so they claim).

 

I'm not sure "scholarly" is the word I would use to define that argument. The argument as to why Mormons are excluded is more analogous to this:

 

[saemo]

The scholarly argument that Mormons aren't Christians is that Christianity has been defined by Nicaea for millennia (so they claim).

 

Then there's the trashier "different Jesus" argument advanced by pastors. Also the shock-valuable "Mormons believe Jesus is Lucifer's brother" argument. Because, of course, "Mormons aren't Christians because they don't believe Father/Son/Holy Ghost are homoousios" isn't going to get Billy riled up.

 

But the vast majority of Christendom does not understand the Trinity. They inadvertently explain modalism whenever they employe analogies. This goes for Catholics and Evangelicals (liberal Protestants don't care).

 

The Eastern Orthodox Church, I've been told, have a much simpler model of homoousios (there are two levels of homoousious, and they buy level one only, something like that). They don't subscribe to the Athanasian Creed and God's being "incomprehensible."

 

So Christianity is defined by a principle the vast majority of Christendom misunderstands. So how in hades is God going to judge someone for not believing in it? Well you can argue that they take it by faith even though they don't completely understand it. Well OK, what I believe about the Godhead as  a Mormon is the Trinity then, even though my understanding is lacking.

Hello, the Orthodox subscribe to the Athanasian creed and also believe God is incomprehensible. Their view is the same as regards to God being of one substance. They do have a somewhat different, though not unacceptable, view of what that substance is. Athanasian is a Saint and Doctor of the Church, for all of the Catholic (universal) faith, East and West.

At any rate, I agree, that there will not be a theological test at our judgement.

However, the vast majority of Christians understand there is one God, not three Gods, even when that understanding is expressed with bad analogies. To say the Mormon view of the godhead is the same thing is an exercise in sophistry, IMO. The Mormon godhead is not an analogy of the Trinity, in any way, shape or form. Not even a bad analogy.

[mfbukowski]

However, the vast majority of Christians understand there is one God, not three Gods, even when that understanding is expressed with bad analogies. To say the Mormon view of the godhead is the same thing is an exercise in sophistry, IMO. The Mormon godhead is not an analogy of the Trinity, in any way, shape or form. Not even a bad analogy.

Thank Goodness.

And incidentally, good theology has nothing to do with majority rule.

[Storm Rider]

I think "understand" is an overstatement.  They know the words "one God", but I have never met anyone that could go beyond the truthful statement that God's oneness is a mystery.  The Father is God, Jesus is God and the Holy Ghost is God they are three Gods, but they are also One God.  

 

This teaching has been a touchstone for the definition of what a true Christian is and is not for hundreds of years.  I don't think anyone thinks that the LDS teaching on the Godhead is the the same as the teaching of the Trinity.  Though there is much that is similar, LDS teaching only goes so far and then stops; there is no essence, or substance, that makes them one.  We stop at separate and distinct persons and cannot carry it to the Catholic teachings that the three persons are only one God.  

 

Although I can accept the accusation that we are polytheists, I have always thought of myself as a monotheist - I worship the Father through the Son and by conviction of the Holy Ghost.  I pray to the same God that Jesus prayed and the Holy Spirit testifies.  

 

Of the many times that I have prayed with non-LDS people and individuals I have never felt any confusion that we each were praying to the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. 

[Ahab]

If they had only said there is only one God while also saying God is more than only one person a whole lot of contention would have been avoided.

I kinda think something was lost in translation.

[Ham Clam]

I think the last thing on our minds when we get to heaven will be the exact metaphysical nature of God. I don't find it the most important thing to know. I don't even know if any of us could come close to all the details.

[Ham Clam]

Hamilton Porter,

The chapter 'Rereading the Council of Nicaea and Its Creed' in 'Standing Apart: Mormon Historical Consciousness and the Concept of Apostasy' helped me a lot in understanding the Trinity.
 

[Flyonthewall]

In my mind, the One God is very simple. One is unity, not numerical.

Traditional Christianity says there are 3 individuals who are God but there are not 3 Gods there is only one God - this is a mystery.

LDS say there are 3 individuals that who are God, and they are one in purpose/goal/efforts. No mystery.

If I am wrong, and this consigns me to hell for eternity, instead of my actions, then boy was I wrong. Eternal torment in a lake of fire and brimstone for a simple misunderstanding seems merciful, fair and just to me.

[EllenMaksoud]

The scholarly argument that Mormons aren't Christians is that Christianity has been defined by Nicaea for millennia (so they claim).

 

Then there's the trashier "different Jesus" argument advanced by pastors. Also the shock-valuable "Mormons believe Jesus is Lucifer's brother" argument. Because, of course, "Mormons aren't Christians because they don't believe Father/Son/Holy Ghost are homoousios" isn't going to get Billy riled up.

 

But the vast majority of Christendom does not understand the Trinity. They inadvertently explain modalism whenever they employe analogies. This goes for Catholics and Evangelicals (liberal Protestants don't care).

 

The Eastern Orthodox Church, I've been told, have a much simpler model of homoousios (there are two levels of homoousious, and they buy level one only, something like that). They don't subscribe to the Athanasian Creed and God's being "incomprehensible."

 

So Christianity is defined by a principle the vast majority of Christendom misunderstands. So how in hades is God going to judge someone for not believing in it? Well you can argue that they take it by faith even though they don't completely understand it. Well OK, what I believe about the Godhead as  a Mormon is the Trinity then, even though my understanding is lacking.

Well, the ilk of Evangelical Christianity that I was thrown out of is definitely "trashy". They eschew any sort of real scholarship. If something bad you say about them is the truth is it slanderous? And, one pastor in that can of worms actually told me that he did not believe certain goofy theology, but to keep his preaching certificate, he had to remain silent.

 

The truth is that none of us actually know if the Trinity is a good model. Some time if God whacks me on the side of the head and says, "Look dummy, the trinity is good", then I'll buy it. At best so many doctrines are simply guesses we make to explain things we do not understand.

 

The "did the Bible happen?" discussion will make me get up and walk out immediately, not because I necessarily think it is true, but if we have to pick at the Bible then I just think that is non productive and faithless, and a waste of time. I would rather talk about what was God's intent with the flood story, or with the Job story?

 

When we finally meet God (Allah, Subhanna Wa Allah ta Allah to me)  face to face We are going to see so many things.  So for example, when Jesus the Christ returns, does it matter if he just pops out of a dimensional rift, or if he arrives in a planet sized space ship? If you want to stick with the "Savior on a big white horse with a two edged sword sticking out of his mouth" model, I am good with that.

 

Mean while, since we have been expending lots of energy on sophisticated, high level theology, there is just doing what Jesus told us to do. Love God, Love each other.

[Hamilton Porter]

Hello, the Orthodox subscribe to the Athanasian creed and also believe God is incomprehensible. Their view is the same as regards to God being of one substance. They do have a somewhat different, though not unacceptable, view of what that substance is. Athanasian is a Saint and Doctor of the Church, for all of the Catholic (universal) faith, East and West.

At any rate, I agree, that there will not be a theological test at our judgement.

However, the vast majority of Christians understand there is one God, not three Gods, even when that understanding is expressed with bad analogies. To say the Mormon view of the godhead is the same thing is an exercise in sophistry, IMO. The Mormon godhead is not an analogy of the Trinity, in any way, shape or form. Not even a bad analogy.

 

The Orthodox prefer to use the words "one nature" to describe the Trinity. One substance like water is all of one substance. The three share a divinity just as humans share a humanity. But at least they have an analogy; there is no apt analogy for the Western version of the Trinity.

Edited October 14, 2014 by Hamilton Porter

[Hamilton Porter]

Hamilton Porter,

The chapter 'Rereading the Council of Nicaea and Its Creed' in 'Standing Apart: Mormon Historical Consciousness and the Concept of Apostasy' helped me a lot in understanding the Trinity.

 

Thanks for the recommendation, brother from another mother. I've read a bajillion definitions of the Trinity already, but that is a hot book and I need an excuse.

[teddyaware]

In my mind, the One God is very simple. One is unity, not numerical.

Traditional Christianity says there are 3 individuals who are God but there are not 3 Gods there is only one God - this is a mystery.

LDS say there are 3 individuals that who are God, and they are one in purpose/goal/efforts. No mystery.

If I am wrong, and this consigns me to hell for eternity, instead of my actions, then boy was I wrong. Eternal torment in a lake of fire and brimstone for a simple misunderstanding seems merciful, fair and just to me.

Hi Fly.

As a practicing Latter-day Saint, I believe that the members of the Godhead (though three separate personages) are most definitely unified as "one God" through more than just a common purpose, common goals or common efforts. The Father and the Son are also unified by a common and shared Spirit, even the uncreated Spirit of Truth that...

12 ... proceedeth forth from the presence of God to fill the immensity of space—

13 The light which is in all things (including the Father and the Son), which giveth life to all things (including both the Father and the Son), which is the law by which all things are governed, even the power of God who sitteth upon his throne, who is in the bosom of eternity, who is in the midst of all things. (D&C 88)

 

Since Latter-day Saints believe the Spirit of God is composed of very real spiritual matter, and is not the so-called 'immaterial 'substance' of not-LDS theology, and since we are told both the Father and the Son enjoy a fullness of the presence of that Spirit within their beings, then it's plain the Father and the Son are indeed beings of "one substance," that substance being the Spirit of God. Even that same Spirit in which dwelleth...

"... the truth of all things; that which quickeneth all things (including God), which maketh alive all things (including God); that which knoweth all things, and hath all power according to wisdom, mercy, truth, justice, and judgment." (Moses 61:6)

I believe through this understanding that both the Father and the Son are filled to infinite and eternal measure with this uncreated Spirit of truth, power and life, the Latter-day Saints have solved the mystery as to precisely what that indwelling unifying substance is that makes the Father and the Son one. And it is that same tangible and very real spiritual substance that makes the saints one with each other as well as one with their God.

11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.

13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. (1 Cor 12)

Yet for reasons which to me seem weak and unscriptural, many Latter-day Saints seem to recoil at the scriptural concept that the Father and the Son do share an actual common substance that mightily helps to make them one in purpose and one God. I'm actually fascinated that this wonderful concept seems to have escaped the attention of so many knowledgeable members. Perhaps the reason why is because many Latter-day Saints are loathe to admit there really is an actual substance the facilitates the unity of the Godhead, because they don't want to give the non-LDS Christians that satisfaction that there really is a substance that plays a significant role in making the Godhead one in purpose. Yet we read:

"And he being the Only-Begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth, and having over-come, received a fullness of the glory of the Father, possessing the same mind with the Father, which mind is the Holy Spirit... (Lectures on Faith 5)

 

I'm just as fascinated and perplexed by the fact that our non-LDS Christian friends, in spite of all that's written in the New Testament, apparently still haven't figured out that the common substance that unifies the Godhead is that same eternal Spirit of Truth that had no beginning and will have no end.  Why they insist on leaving the trinity a mystery by not defining what that unifying substance actually is beyond me, especially in light of the fact that the New Testament clearly spells out that unity can only come by means of the Spirit. After all, one of the main themes of the New Testament is the unity that God that and His saints enjoy by means of the common presence of that same Spirit.

4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; (Ephesians 4)

Edited October 14, 2014 by teddyaware

[theplains]

So Christianity is defined by a principle the vast majority of Christendom misunderstands. So how in hades is God going to judge someone for not believing in it? Well you can argue that they take it by faith even though they don't completely understand it.

 

If the Bible does not teach the real identity and mission of Jesus Christ, then I don't believe Muslims

will be judged for falsely teaching that Jesus was only a prophet or for some religious groups falsely

teaching Jesus is a created angel called Michael.

 

Regards,

Jim

[Flyonthewall]

Hi Fly.

As a practicing Latter-day Saint, I believe that the members of the Godhead (though three separate personages) are most definitely unified as "one God" through more than just a common purpose, common goals or common efforts. The Father and the Son are also unified by a common and shared Spirit, even the uncreated Spirit of Truth that...

12 ... proceedeth forth from the presence of God to fill the immensity of space—

13 The light which is in all things (including the Father and the Son), which giveth life to all things (including both the Father and the Son), which is the law by which all things are governed, even the power of God who sitteth upon his throne, who is in the bosom of eternity, who is in the midst of all things. (D&C 88)

 

Since Latter-day Saints believe the Spirit of God is composed of very real spiritual matter, and is not the so-called 'immaterial 'substance' of not-LDS theology, and since we are told both the Father and the Son enjoy a fullness of the presence of that Spirit within their beings, then it's plain the Father and the Son are indeed beings of "one substance," that substance being the Spirit of God. Even that same Spirit in which dwelleth...

"... the truth of all things; that which quickeneth all things (including God), which maketh alive all things (including God); that which knoweth all things, and hath all power according to wisdom, mercy, truth, justice, and judgment." (Moses 61:6)

I believe through this understanding that both the Father and the Son are filled to infinite and eternal measure with this uncreated Spirit of truth, power and life, the Latter-day Saints have solved the mystery as to precisely what that indwelling unifying substance is that makes the Father and the Son one. And it is that same tangible and very real spiritual substance that makes the saints one with each other as well as one with their God.

11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.

13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. (1 Cor 12)

Yet for reasons which to me seem weak and unscriptural, many Latter-day Saints seem to recoil at the scriptural concept that the Father and the Son do share an actual common substance that mightily helps to make them one in purpose and one God. I'm actually fascinated that this wonderful concept seems to have escaped the attention of so many knowledgeable members. Perhaps the reason why is because many Latter-day Saints are loathe to admit there really is an actual substance the facilitates the unity of the Godhead, because they don't want to give the non-LDS Christians that satisfaction that there really is a substance that plays a significant role in making the Godhead one in purpose. Yet we read:

"And he being the Only-Begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth, and having over-come, received a fullness of the glory of the Father, possessing the same mind with the Father, which mind is the Holy Spirit... (Lectures on Faith 5)

 

I'm just as fascinated and perplexed by the fact that our non-LDS Christian friends, in spite of all that's written in the New Testament, apparently still haven't figured out that the common substance that unifies the Godhead is that same eternal Spirit of Truth that had no beginning and will have no end.  Why they insist on leaving the trinity a mystery by not defining what that unifying substance actually is beyond me, especially in light of the fact that the New Testament clearly spells out that unity can only come by means of the Spirit. After all, one of the main themes of the New Testament is the unity that God that and His saints enjoy by means of the common presence of that same Spirit.

4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; (Ephesians 4)

I am open to the concept of the Spirit of God being a binding/unifying "substance"(already believe it to be), but somehow it just doesn't line up with how it is described by Trinitarians... maybe it's just me.

[teddyaware]

I am open to the concept of the Spirit of God being a binding/unifying "substance"(already believe it to be), but somehow it just doesn't line up with how it is described by Trinitarians... maybe it's just me.

The problem is that we Latter-day Saints will never be able to "line up" our theology on the unity of our Godhead with the unity of the non-LDS Trinity until the non-LDS Christians define what the 'substance' is that makes the separate personages of their Godhead one. Rather, they deliberately (and unnecessarily, I might add) make no attempt to define what the "one substance" is that unifies their Godhead, preferring to let it remain a mystery; and this even though the New Testament always refers to the substance that unifies the Father with the Son, and the Son with the saints as nothing more or less than the eternal Spirit. There is no need for mystery here. All throughout the New Testament, the unifying divine substance is the Spirit. And in LDS Theology, the Spirit actually is a highly refined material substance.

Edited October 15, 2014 by teddyaware

[Walden]

Interesting......I'm not worried if I meet God and I'm wrong on the whole existence of God thing, much less the Trinity.

[Hamilton Porter]

Interesting......I'm not worried if I meet God and I'm wrong on the whole existence of God thing, much less the Trinity.

 

That's different.

[stephenpurdy]

The Orthodox prefer to use the words "one nature" to describe the Trinity. One substance like water is all of one substance. The three share a divinity just as humans share a humanity. But at least they have an analogy; there is no apt analogy for the Western version of the Trinity.

 

 

In that case, you agree with Mormons, because we absolutely believe that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit have the same "nature".

 

-stephen

[Jeanne]

If we can associate and relate to those we have loved on earth..family is not necessary..I mean it just isn't.  We are all brothers and sisters are we not?

[ERayR]

Oh man...I am the crankiest and most cynical employee.

 

But what I will try to say now in less strident tones, is that I don't want to be lumped, as a Catholic, with those who say the Nicene Trinity is easily arrived at from Scripture. If Hamilton Porter has any worries from my perspective, it would be if he rejected the authority of a Church which God approves, while the Son of His right hand is the Head. I accept the Nicene Trinity on authority and certainly not because I figured it out.

 

Though I suspect you and I do not agree which church that is I can not fault your reasoning.

Edited June 6, 2015 by ERayR

[ERayR]

I think the last thing on our minds when we get to heaven will be the exact metaphysical nature of God. I don't find it the most important thing to know. I don't even know if any of us could come close to all the details.

 

I hope to be busy greeting loved ones who have preceded me.