Lds View Of Godhead / Trinity

[Sp0ckrates]

If you put it as one Godhead consisting of three persons I'd be OK with that.

Yes, until you ask a Trinitarian what Godhead means to her, then you wouldn't be OK with believing it, I think.

Even so, please tell me: Do Mormons believe only the word Godhead refers to the three gods, but words like Lord and God refer to merely one of the three gods?

Edited June 16, 2015 by Sp0ckrates

[TheSkepticChristian]

 if the Trinity cannot be shown to be illogical or impossible

 

Yes it can be shown to be impossible, please watch the video in post 42. 3 = 1?

 

Also, the Trinity doctrine also says that God exist outside time. A God that exist outside time cannot think because thinking requires time. 

 

[Sp0ckrates]

In the Bible Jesus claims to not know somethings that his father knows; claims to do only what he has seen his father do; that others will be one as he is with his father.

The Trinitarian Monotheistic Model is illogical on its face.

Regarding the first, did you have this verse in mind?

But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

(Matthew 24:36)

[Sp0ckrates]

Yes it can be shown to be impossible, please watch the video in post 42. 3 = 1?

I will let you know what I think after I watch it.

Also, the Trinity doctrine also says that God exist outside time. A God that exist outside time cannot think because thinking requires time.

I'm no physicist, but I think living outside of time wouldn't be an absense of time if this fifth (or greater) dimension was a kind of time itself. As three dimensions is so much greater than two, so too eterity might be beyond time.

Our time might be existing inside his time, and his time, existing outside our time, would not be limited by our time. He might then be able to exist in the past, present and future of our time all at the same time.

Interacting with our time might be like viewing a video game he had already played to the end and beat. He could load any save and visit any time in the game. (Simplistic analogy, I know. But I wonder if living in our presence was for Jesus like going from actual reality to virtual reality. And I also wonder if finding oneself in God's presence after death would be like going from living in virtual reality to actual reality. Hmmm.)

But if he cannot be in the future before the future happens, then how would the hundreds of predictions of the future he made in the Old Testament have been possible?

Also even if God is not omnipresent, he might still be one God in three persons. Disproving one does not necessarily make the other false, I think. And omniscience, if false, is still fun to think about. If true, it's more imaginative than anything found in science fiction.

Edited June 16, 2015 by Sp0ckrates

[thesometimesaint]

Yes, until you ask a Trinitarian what Godhead means to her, then you wouldn't be OK with believing it, I think.

Even so, please tell me: Do Mormons believe only the word Godhead refers to the three gods, but words like Lord and God refer to merely one of the three gods?

 

Possibly. I can only go on what my understanding of the term Trinity is at any given time. But I have asked many Trinitarians to explain it to me in words I can understand. None have been able to do so yet. However it is in the realm of possibility though.

 

I don't entirely understand your question. But if I can venture a stab at it. I'd say that this LDS believes we are all Gods, or at least have the potential to become Gods. You might think of the Godhead as a Counsel of Gods with a President(God the Father), Vice President(God the Son), and Speaker(God the Holy Ghost) with all us "lesser" Gods as members of the counsel.

[Sp0ckrates]

Possibly. I can only go on what my understanding of the term Trinity is at any given time. But I have asked many Trinitarians to explain it to me in words I can understand. None have been able to do so yet. However it is in the realm of possibility though.

I don't entirely understand your question. But if I can venture a stab at it. I'd say that this LDS believes we are all Gods, or at least have the potential to become Gods. You might think of the Godhead as a Counsel of Gods with a President(God the Father), Vice President(God the Son), and Speaker(God the Holy Ghost) with all us "lesser" Gods as members of the counsel.

Well, Thesimetimesaint, I have to say I like the idea of becoming a god, though I'm not sure how good I'd be at it. As a kid I left an ant farm of mine in a window and the sun fried all the creatures I cared for! It wasn't intentiona, mind you. But my poor judgement made it a sad day for my first dry run at being like God.

What I'm asking is for scriptural evidence. You see, I like to have some written evidence from the Bible that some metaphysical concept is actual before I actually believe it. So I'm wondering if you are the same, and there is text in the Bible, Book of Mormon or elsewhere that convinces you there is not one God but three.

But I'm not asking you to quote chapter and verse, especially if it is a Bible verse. I'm not so bad at guessing the verse and looking it up.

Edited June 16, 2015 by Sp0ckrates

[bluebell]

Agreed, Bluebell. This passage is indeed not speaking of the Son and the Father sharing one nature. It's speaking of the relationship between the Son and the Father.

 

11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

(John 17)

But the passage also doesn't say there isn't one God in three persons, and I don't recall any Trinitarian using it as proof of the doctrine.

The persons of the Trinity can logically have a relationship with one another and at the same time have one God in each of them (Trinity meaning one God in three persons). So I'm not sure how it proves the doctrine is illogical or inaccurate.

 

 

I think the key is in the word 'being', especially as Trinitarians use it.

 

The passage contradicts the idea that God is three persons in one being.  It contradicts it because it says that we are supposed to be one with Christ as He is one with the Father, yet when we are one with Christ (and one with each other, which He also commands) we are not one being.  We each retain our own being even when we are one with Christ.

 

From my perspective (i know that trinitarians see it differently, and there is nothing in the bible that proves either belief correct beyond doubt), Christ would not command us to be one with Him in a way that is impossible for us to accomplish, even with His help.  If the Trinitarians are right, then there is no way for us to be one with Christ as He is one with the Father.

 

That tells me that their definition of 'being one' and Christ's definition of 'being one' is not the same.  

[Sp0ckrates]

Thesimetimesaint:

Maybe it will help if I suggest a passage of the Bible we may consider together:

8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

(Colossians 2)

Notice that Paul says the Godhead dwells in Christ. So I'm confused when you say Christ dwells in the Godhead. That seems to me to be the opposite of what Paul is saying. Are you thinking maybe Paul got it wrong? Or am I misunderstanding you?

Edited June 16, 2015 by Sp0ckrates

[Sp0ckrates]

I think the key is in the word 'being', especially as Trinitarians use it.

The passage contradicts the idea that God is three persons in one being.

I agree it contradicts the idea that God is three persons in one being. But this is what Modalists believe, not Trinitarians. Trinitarians believe the opposite: God is one being in three persons. At least, that is what they think Paul's words mean:

For in [Christ] dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

(Colossians 2:9)

It contradicts it because it says that we are supposed to be one with Christ as He is one with the Father, yet when we are one with Christ (and one with each other, which He also commands) we are not one being. We each retain our own being even when we are one with Christ.

From my perspective (i know that trinitarians see it differently, and there is nothing in the bible that proves either belief correct beyond doubt), Christ would not command us to be one with Him in a way that is impossible for us to accomplish, even with His help. If the Trinitarians are right, then there is no way for us to be one with Christ as He is one with the Father.

That tells me that their definition of 'being one' and Christ's definition of 'being one' is not the same.

Please tell me, Bluebell: I know that if you become a god you will be like Christ in many ways, but is there even one way you can be like him now? Edited June 16, 2015 by Sp0ckrates

[Sp0ckrates]

So I'm carefully considering this word Godhead and what it means. I've come up with this analogy that I hope will help me. I'm thinking of the Boy Scouts of America and the Scouts' Law.

When I was young I was a scout. If someone asked me, "Are you in the Boy Scouts?" I would have said, "Yes, I am!" But if someone asked me, "Are the Boy Scouts in you?" I would have replied, "Wait...what?"

As a Boyscout I could recite the Scout's Law: "A Scout is trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean, and reverent." So if someone asked me if the Scout's Law was in me, I might have said, "Yes! It's in my heart and mind." But if someone asked me, "Are you in the Scout's Law?" I would have said, "Say, what?"

So I guess my question about the Godhead is this: Are the three (Father, Son and Holy Ghost) in it, or is it in them?

Edited June 16, 2015 by Sp0ckrates

[TheSkepticChristian]

I'm no physicist, but I think living outside of time wouldn't be an absense of time if this fifth (or greater) dimension was a kind of time itself. As three dimensions is so much greater than two, so too eterity might be beyond time.

 

Trinitarian theologians say that God exists outside any kind of time and outside all dimensions. 

 

 

But if he cannot be in the future before the future happens, then how would the hundreds of predictions of the future he made in the Old Testament have been possible?

 

It shouldn't be hard for the greatest mind to predict certain events. The church teaches moral free will (or moral agency), but it doesn't teach that there is free will in everything. For example, do you like Pizza? Why? 

 

 

Also even if God is not omnipresent, he might still be one God in three persons. Disproving one does not necessarily make the other false, I think. And omniscience

 

How can God be three persons? 3 = 1? That is not possible. Any analogy to explain that collapses to something else that contradicts the doctrine of the Trinity. There is simply no analogy to explain the Trinity because it is simply not possible 

 

 

Modalism (i.e. Sabellianism, Noetianism and Patripassianism) 

...taught that the three persons of the Trinity as different “modes” of the Godhead. Adherants believed that Father, Son and Holy Spirit are not distinct personalities, but different modes of God's self-revelation. A typical modalist approach is to regard God as the Father in creation, the Son in redemption, and the Spirit in sanctification. In other words, God exists as Father, Son and Spirit in different eras, but never as triune. Stemming from Modalism, Patripassianism believed that the Father suffered as the Son.

 

Tritheism 

...Tritheism confessses the Father, Son and Holy Spirit as three independent divine beings; three separate gods who share the 'same substance'. This is a common mistake because of misunderstanding of the use of the term 'persons' in defining the Trinity.

Arianism 

...taught that the preexistent Christ was the first and greatest of God’s creatures but denied his fully divine status. The Arian controversy was of major importance in the development of Christology during the fourth century and was addressed definitely in the Nicene Creed.

Docetism

...taught that Jesus Christ as a purely divine being who only had the “appearance” of being human. Regarding his suffering, some versions taught that Jesus’ divinity abandoned or left him upon the cross while other claimed that he only appeared to suffer (much like he only appeared to be human).

Ebionitism

...taught that while Jesus was endowed with particular charismatic gifts which distinguished him from other humans but nonetheless regarded Him as a purely human figure.

Macedonianism

...that that the Holy Spirit is a created being.

Adoptionism

...taught that Jesus was born totally human and only later was “adopted” – either at his baptism or at his resurrection – by God in a special (i.e. divine) way.

Partialism 

...taught that Father, Son and Holy Spirit together are components of the one God. This led them to believe that each of the persons of the Trinity is only part God, only becoming fully God when they come together.

 

 

Edited June 16, 2015 by TheSkepticChristian

[danielwoods]

I think the key is in the word 'being', especially as Trinitarians use it.

 

The passage contradicts the idea that God is three persons in one being.  It contradicts it because it says that we are supposed to be one with Christ as He is one with the Father, yet when we are one with Christ (and one with each other, which He also commands) we are not one being.  We each retain our own being even when we are one with Christ.

 

From my perspective (i know that trinitarians see it differently, and there is nothing in the bible that proves either belief correct beyond doubt), Christ would not command us to be one with Him in a way that is impossible for us to accomplish, even with His help.  If the Trinitarians are right, then there is no way for us to be one with Christ as He is one with the Father.

 

That tells me that their definition of 'being one' and Christ's definition of 'being one' is not the same.

 

Notice bolded portion. Christ never commands us to be one with him and the Father. It's a prayer.

Christ is praying that we would be one with the Father as he is. And the answer is that he is speaking as a man, notice he's praying. And as the Man, Christ Jesus is one with the Father by his spirit that resides in him. "I do nothing by myself…." The Spirit resides inside us allows us to be one with the Father, just as Christ is one with him (as a man). 

 

As Paul described, "3 For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. 4 When Christ who is your life appears, then you also will appear with him in glory." (Colossians 3)

[Sp0ckrates]

Yes it can be shown to be impossible, please watch the video in post 42. 3 = 1?

I watched the video, TheSkepticChristian. Funny!

There are anti-Mormon Donall and Conall videos on YouTube, too. But it would be rude to post a link, since I am a guest here.

As far as 1= 3, that would indeed be illogical. But it is not what the doctrine of the Trinity teaches, which is 1 in 3. I do agree that there can be no good analogy, for nothing God has created has one being in three persons. I suppose that God would be unique, more complex and unlike anything he created, if the doctrine is true.

[bluebell]

Notice bolded portion. Christ never commands us to be one with him and the Father. It's a prayer.

Christ is praying that we would be one with the Father as he is. And the answer is that he is speaking as a man, notice he's praying. And as the Man, Christ Jesus is one with the Father by his spirit that resides in him. "I do nothing by myself…." The Spirit resides inside us allows us to be one with the Father, just as Christ is one with him (as a man).

As Paul described, "3 For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. 4 When Christ who is your life appears, then you also will appear with him in glory." (Colossians 3)

Like I said, I know that Trinitarians see it differently. If they didn't, they wouldn't be Trinitarians.

[Sp0ckrates]

Trinitarian theologians say that God exists outside any kind of time and outside all dimensions.

Please post a link to support your premise.

It shouldn't be hard for the greatest mind to predict certain events.

Agreed. Already existing in the future would be one way of knowing the future, but I suppose not the only way. I'm just not sure what other way would enable God to make such predictions with 100% accuracy 100% of the time. I'm curious: Are there predictions of the future in the Book of Mormon?

The church teaches moral free will (or moral agency), but it doesn't teach that there is free will in everything. For example, do you like Pizza? Why?

Yes, because I desire it, not because of free will. Desiring something is not the same as doing it, I think. (Did I answer correctly?)

How can God be three persons? 3 = 1? That is not possible.

I agree that is impossible. It is also not what Trinitarians believe.

Any analogy to explain that collapses to something else that contradicts the doctrine of the Trinity. There is simply no analogy to explain the Trinity because it is simply not possible

Oh, I don't know. I can apprehend how one being can exist in three persons. I can comprehend how the science of logic demonstrates this is not an illogical contradiction. I can appreciate how God could be unique and more complex than anything he created. I can see how one being having three persons to its nature is certainly more complex and unlike anything I've ever seen. I can also admit that since I have never experienced anything like it, it's beyond what I comprehend but not beyond what I apprehend.

But all that aside, isn't the important thing what God says? I mean, Trinitarians believe there is one Godhead in three persons. But if the Bible says the Godhead is not in the persons, but instead says the persons are in the Godhead, then shouldn't that settle the matter? I think it would settle the matter for me.

Edited June 16, 2015 by Sp0ckrates

[Flyonthewall]

Well, Thesimetimesaint, I have to say I like the idea of becoming a god, though I'm not sure how good I'd be at it. As a kid I left an ant farm of mine in a window and the sun fried all the creatures I cared for! It wasn't intentiona, mind you. But my poor judgement made it a sad day for my first dry run at being like God.

What I'm asking is for scriptural evidence. You see, I like to have some written evidence from the Bible that some metaphysical concept is actual before I actually believe it. So I'm wondering if you are the same, and there is text in the Bible, Book of Mormon or elsewhere that convinces you there is not one God but three.

But I'm not asking you to quote chapter and verse, especially if it is a Bible verse. I'm not so bad at guessing the verse and looking it up.

I'm not TSS, and I'm sure he will have his own response, but a quick search ou our website turns up this article that addresses deification... it does contain biblical references:

https://www.lds.org/topics/becoming-like-god?lang=eng&query=exaltation

What does the Bible say about humans’ divine potential?

Several biblical passages intimate that humans can become like God. The likeness of humans to God is emphasized in the first chapter of Genesis: “God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. … So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.”3 After Adam and Eve partook of the fruit of “the tree of the knowledge of good and evil,” God said they had “become as one of us,”4 suggesting that a process of approaching godliness was already underway. Later in the Old Testament, a passage in the book of Psalms declares, “I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.”5

New Testament passages also point to this doctrine. When Jesus was accused of blasphemy on the grounds that “thou, being a man, makest thyself God,” He responded, echoing Psalms, “Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?”6 In the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus commanded His disciples to become “perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.”7 In turn, the Apostle Peter referred to the Savior’s “exceeding great and precious promises” that we might become “partakers of the divine nature.”8 The Apostle Paul taught that we are “the offspring of God” and emphasized that as such “we are the children of God: and if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ.”9 The book of Revelation contains a promise from Jesus Christ that “to him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.”10

These passages can be interpreted in different ways. Yet by viewing them through the clarifying lens of revelations received by Joseph Smith, Latter-day Saints see these scriptures as straightforward expressions of humanity’s divine nature and potential. Many other Christians read the same passages far more metaphorically because they experience the Bible through the lens of doctrinal interpretations that developed over time after the period described in the New Testament.

[coolrok7]

Stephen, your explanation in the opening post is not consistent with how Jesus identifies with Human beings in order to suffer death for us, not the angels. Angels have already been judged with no chance of changing their future state (that is those of Matthew 25:41):

 

 

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

 

 

Jesus wasn't elevated to Godhood, He was already God before the incarnation. We become like Jesus in the resurrection of our body (glorified not deified), not His Deity.

 

 

[Sp0ckrates]

I'm not TSS, and I'm sure he will have his own response, but a quick search ou our website turns up this article that addresses deification... it does contain biblical references:

https://www.lds.org/topics/becoming-like-god?lang=eng&query=exaltation

Thanks for the link. I'll check it out. If true, deification is one of the best selling points is Mormonism--though it still takes a back seat to exaltation. Like David sang in one of the psalms: He'd rather be a janitor in God's house than king of his own castle.

[Sp0ckrates]

Stephen, your explanation in the opening post is not consistent with how Jesus identifies with Human beings in order to suffer death for us, not the angels. Angels have already been judged with no chance of changing their future state (that is those of Matthew 25:41):

Jesus wasn't elevated to Godhood, He was already God before the incarnation. We become like Jesus in the resurrection of our body (glorified not deified), not His Deity.

Rather than tell a person why he's wrong, why not ask him why he's right? You'll learn a lot more that way.

[Flyonthewall]

Thanks for the link. I'll check it out. If true, deification is one of the best selling points is Mormonism--though it still takes a back seat to exaltation. Like David sang in one of the psalms: He'd rather be a janitor in God's house than king of his own castle.

Just to throw this out there, deification is not a quick process. As eternal beings we have as much time as it takes to become perfected as Jesus commanded us to be. (Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father in heaven:Matt. 5:48)

[TheSkepticChristian]

I agree that is impossible. It is also not what Trinitarians believe.

 

What does "God in three persons" even mean? How "God is three persons" any different?  Are you saying that God is inside three persons? 

 

I say 3 = 1 because Trinitarians believe The Father, the son, and the Holy ghost are separate persons (see the baptism of Jesus), but at the same time they are the same being. Here are some examples 

 

 

The New Testament clearly states that Jesus is God (John 1:1, 14); the Father is God (Phil. 1:2); and the Holy Spirit is God (Acts 5:3-4). Since the Son speaks to the Father, they are separate persons (John 17). Since the Holy Spirit speaks also (Acts 13:2), He, too, is a separate person. There can be no question that the New Testament proclaims there is only One God and that He exists in three distinct persons.

http://bible-truth.org/Trinity.html

 

 

 

The Trinity is not three substances but three persons existing simultaneously... As Athanasius coined the phrase "not dividing the substance nor confusing the persons."

http://www.letusreason.org/Trin7.htm

 

 

the Trinity is three separate persons who share the same nature.

https://C***.org/que...who-did-he-pray

 

 

The Doctrine of the Trinity teaches that there is only one God, but that within the nature of the one God there exist three distinct, separate, and equal persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

http://www.consider.org/library/trinity.htm

 

The Trinity doctrine clearly says that 3 = 1, and that is a logical contradiction. 

 

 

Yes, because I desire it, not because of free will. Desiring something is not the same as doing it, I think. (Did I answer correctly?)

 

but did you choose to desire it? 

 

 

Please post a link to support your premise.

 

Trinitarians believe that God created everything, including time and all dimensions.

Here is a Trinity apologist saying that, see 3:30

They believe God is spaceless and timeless 

 

The Trinity is clearly impossible (and there is no evidence for it). A trinity God cannot think because Trinitarians believe he is outside time, and time is required to think . 

 

 

There are anti-Mormon Donall and Conall videos on YouTube, too. But it would be rude to post a link, since I am a guest here.

 

It is not anti 

Edited June 17, 2015 by TheSkepticChristian

[coolrok7]

I'm not new here. I've been studying with Mormons on their own turf since 1979. It is not Biblical Christianity although they can believe what they want. They (beginning with Joseph Smith) crossed our line first and said we are wrong.

[Sp0ckrates]

Just to throw this out there, deification is not a quick process. As eternal beings we have as much time as it takes to become perfected as Jesus commanded us to be. (Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father in heaven:Matt. 5:48)

Indeed. I don't think Jesus would make such a request were it not possible. Catholics say such perfecting takes place in Purgatory. Many Protestants say God declares us to be perfect, even though we are not. The Mormon belief is another plausible way to obey Christ's command.

[Sp0ckrates]

What does "God in three persons" even mean? How "God is three persons" any different? Are you saying that God is inside three persons?

Well, I'm no theologian. What I think it means is God is unlike you and me. We each have one person to our being--one mind, so to speak. The one God is believed to have three persons to his one being--three minds, so to speak. I believe that is correct. But if some Christians have explained it differently, please tell me.

I say 3 = 1 because Trinitarians believe The Father, the son, and the Holy ghost are separate persons (see the baptism of Jesus), but at the same time they are the same being. Here are some examples

You are correct that if Trinitarians believed God was one being in three beings, then they would illogically believe 3 = 1, and I would have to reject their irrational beliefs. But this is not what they believe. They believe God is one being in three persons, and each of the persons are not separate beings. One being has three persons. This is not the same as saying one being is three persons. You see?

The Trinity doctrine clearly says that 3 = 1, and that is a logical contradiction.

Please post a link to a reputable source that supports your premise.

but did you choose to desire it?

No, I didn't. Please consider sin. One does not choose to be tempted. But his desires tempt him. He has little control over what he desires. But when tempted to sin, he does have control over whether or not he will give in to that temptation. Every sin is a choice. No temptation is a choice.

But I don't yet see what this has to do with our discussion. Please explain.

Trinitarians believe that God created everything, including time and all dimensions.

Here is a Trinity apologist saying that, see 3:30

They believe God is spaceless and timeless

The Trinity is clearly impossible (and there is no evidence for it). A trinity God cannot think because Trinitarians believe he is outside time, and time is required to think .

There is no Biblical evidence for it?

It is not anti

Donall and Conall Meet the Mormons is not anti-Mormon? Edited June 17, 2015 by Sp0ckrates

[Storm Rider]

I'm not new here. I've been studying with Mormons on their own turf since 1979. It is not Biblical Christianity although they can believe what they want. They (beginning with Joseph Smith) crossed our line first and said we are wrong.

 

I have always felt the same about you and your religion; it just isn't based on scripture in context.  It is based on a few scriptures and then a lot of man's teachings.  More importantly, your church broke away from the Orthodox church/Catholicism without any authority except that a man said he rebelled and then taught something different. Strange, John Wesley taught that Christianity was only a dead form of what what true Christianity.  I think he many ways he was correct.