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Great Adam-God Discussion

Rivers

By Rivers
in General Discussions

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Rivers Grand Master

Rivers

Posted
Posted (edited)

I hope Bro. Reel doesn't mind me posting this but this probably the best discussion I've heard regarding the Adam-God teachings of Brigham Young.  The history of this teaching and how church leaders have dealt with it for is fascinating. It's a big long I must warn.

http://www.mormondiscussionpodcast.org/2016/09/premium-adam-god-historical-subterfuge/

I'm now eager to see how the church deals  with this topic in the near future.  No essay on it yet.

Edited by Rivers
4
Calm Grand Master

Calm

Posted
Posted (edited)

Is it his premium podcast and if so has it been released publicly yet?  The url suggests not and if so, you need to remove link as the income he gets is what pays for the podcasts to be made.  Probably best to ask him first if you are not sure about it.

Edited by Calm
Calm Grand Master

Calm

Posted
Posted

It looks like it was originally released Aug 10, but I don't know how long premium customers get it before regular.  Also Google brought up what you posted and appears to be what is posted yesterday, but still...best to ask.

Calm Grand Master

Calm

Posted
Posted
6 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

It's not a premium episode. I wonder if this is a rerun, because I recall another one like it.

Good to know.

Bobbieaware Grand Master

Bobbieaware

Posted
Posted
17 minutes ago, VideoGameJunkie said:

Elohim is my Heavenly Father, Jehovah is Jesus Christ and Michael is Adam. Adam is not God. He may be an exalted god now like Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, but he is not our Heavenly Father.

It's not as simple and clear cut as many think. The apostle Paul informs us that, pertaining to this earth, there are at least two very important personages who are known by the name Adam. The first is the man who fell from the presence of God in the Garden of Eden. The second very important personage known by the sacred name Adam is the Lord Jesus Christ.

 41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differethfrom another star in glory.

 42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

 45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam (Christ) was made a quickening spirit. (1 Corinthians 15)

 

1
Teancum Grand Master

Teancum

Posted
Posted
2 hours ago, Rivers said:

I hope Bro. Reel doesn't mind me posting this but this probably the best discussion I've heard regarding the Adam-God teachings of Brigham Young.  The history of this teaching and how church leaders have dealt with it for is fascinating. It's a big long I must warn.

http://www.mormondiscussionpodcast.org/2016/09/premium-adam-god-historical-subterfuge/

I'm now eager to see how the church deals  with this topic in the near future.  No essay on it yet.

I highly doubt the church will do an essay.  Most prominent among many of Brigham's odd teachings they simply ignore it as the position is it was never adopted as official doctrine.  But clearly that ignores the fact that the Prophet, Seer and Revelator at that time did not seem to know who or what God really was......

Teancum Grand Master

Teancum

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, VideoGameJunkie said:

Elohim is my Heavenly Father, Jehovah is Jesus Christ and Michael is Adam. Adam is not God. He may be an exalted god now like Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, but he is not our Heavenly Father.

Brigham Young clearly disagreed with you.

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cdowis Grand Master

cdowis

Posted
Posted
23 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Brigham Young clearly disagreed with you.

Spencer W. Kimball clearly disagrees with Brigham Young when he declared the Church's official position on Adam-God:

We warn you against the dissemination of doctrines which are not according to the Scriptures and which are alleged to have been taught by some of the General Authorities of past generations. Such, for instance, is the Adam-God theory. We denounce that theory and hope that everyone will be cautioned against this and other kinds of false doctrine
https://www.lds.org/ensign/1976/11/our-own-liahona?lang=eng
Calm Grand Master

Calm

Posted
Posted

Podcasts are not very good at providing documentation, the format doesn't make it easy to do so.  Plus nuanced positions can be missed while listening.  Is there a book or blog that covers the same stuff available?

Flexible Contributor

Flexible

Posted
Posted (edited)

I think the podcast does a good job of providing a documentation trail.  Highly recommend it.  It is an interview with Corbin Volluz.  Corbin details the history of BY's
Adam-God teachings and then documents the subterfuge the Church has employed to hide it.   

Edited by Flexible
Correct formatting
1
BCSpace Grand Master

BCSpace

Posted
Posted
4 hours ago, Rivers said:

I hope Bro. Reel doesn't mind me posting this but this probably the best discussion I've heard regarding the Adam-God teachings of Brigham Young.  The history of this teaching and how church leaders have dealt with it for is fascinating. It's a big long I must warn.

http://www.mormondiscussionpodcast.org/2016/09/premium-adam-god-historical-subterfuge/

I'm now eager to see how the church deals  with this topic in the near future.  No essay on it yet.

What's to discuss?  Only these two facts make sense:

1) Adam-God is not, and never was, LDS doctrine (and that includes Nutall which actually demonstrates 2 below).

2) Adam Sr - Adam Jr is the only explanation that fits the evidence.

1
Flexible Contributor

Flexible

Posted
Posted

Hard to see how the Church could do an essay on this.  It seems to defy any attempt at plausible deniability, and is a clearly embarrassing case of doctrinal discord among modern prophets.  The Bruce R. McConkie letter to Eugene England discussed in the podcast is astonishing;  As the old saying goes, "skate quickly over thin ice".  This is the thinnest of ice.

Flexible Contributor

Flexible

Posted
Posted

In Bill Reel's interview of Patrick Mason a while back (podcast is available on Bill's website), Patrick talks about the need for a "new theology of prophets" in the church.  A theology that does a better job of bringing men who are almost deified in our culture back down to earth.  The strong language used by BY in demanding his followers accept his Adam-God teachings, and then the strong language used by SW Kimball and BR McConkie in denouncing BYs Adam-God teachings,  simply pull the rug out from under any notion of infallible prophets.    BR McConkie's letter to Eugene England about Adam-God  then further complicates things by showing how the Brethren can be intentionally disingenuous and deceptive in what they teach over the pulpit. 

Adam-God, as well as over 100 years of erroneous doctrine regarding Blacks and the Priesthood, seem to argue for the need to revise our theology of prophets.   What will happen as more members begin to learn of these things?

3
rongo Grand Master

rongo

Posted
Posted

Any ideas on who sent the McConkie/England letter to the Tanners? I asked Sandra Tanner, and she said it was sent anonymously. Eugene England was out of town when the letter arrived, and someone opened it, copied it (CONFIDENTIAL; DO NOT COPY is stamped on every page), and sent it to them. Had to have been a BYU employee with access to the mail in that department, obviously. 

I'm fascinated by the "mole" mentality of highly-placed leakers who invariably leak privileged information. 

 

cdowis Grand Master

cdowis

Posted
Posted

FWIW, many decades ago (using Compuserv or AOL), I was discussing this topic, and she told me the story that she had visited her grandmother in the nursing home.  She told how BY had come to their town for a visit, and was visiting with her father.  Before leaving, BY told him that he had a great joke that he was going to play on the Saints.

He didn't give the details.  But it reminded me of the talk that he gave where he told the members to get their own testimony on what the church leaders were preaching, not to take everything they said without finding out for themselves if it were true.

While this is all fourth hand, it seems to me to give the best explanation of the Adam-God theory.  Why did he continue the "joke" is a problem.  Perhaps it may have taken on a life on its own, and he went too far with it.

Anyway, it's an interesting idea.

Tacenda Grand Master

Tacenda

Posted
Posted
22 minutes ago, rongo said:

Any ideas on who sent the McConkie/England letter to the Tanners? I asked Sandra Tanner, and she said it was sent anonymously. Eugene England was out of town when the letter arrived, and someone opened it, copied it (CONFIDENTIAL; DO NOT COPY is stamped on every page), and sent it to them. Had to have been a BYU employee with access to the mail in that department, obviously. 

I'm fascinated by the "mole" mentality of highly-placed leakers who invariably leak privileged information. 

 

Like this ... http://fox13now.com/2016/09/22/allegedly-secret-lds-church-documents-leaked/

Tacenda Grand Master

Tacenda

Posted
Posted
21 minutes ago, cdowis said:

FWIW, many decades ago (using Compuserv or AOL), I was discussing this topic, and she told me the story that she had visited her grandmother in the nursing home.  She told how BY had come to their town for a visit, and was visiting with her father.  Before leaving, BY told him that he had a great joke that he was going to play on the Saints.

He didn't give the details.  But it reminded me of the talk that he gave where he told the members to get their own testimony on what the church leaders were preaching, not to take everything they said without finding out for themselves if it were true.

While this is all fourth hand, it seems to me to give the best explanation of the Adam-God theory.  Why did he continue the "joke" is a problem.  Perhaps it may have taken on a life on its own, and he went too far with it.

Anyway, it's an interesting idea.

Funny how both he and Joseph did this, such as testing Kimball by asking for his wife in marriage. I think it's terrible, they say things in the name of God practically, when they wear the mantle of prophethood. It reeks taking the Lord's name in vain, IMO.

Oliver_Cowdery Collaborator

Oliver_Cowdery

Posted
Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Calm said:

Podcasts are not very good at providing documentation, the format doesn't make it easy to do so.  Plus nuanced positions can be missed while listening.  Is there a book or blog that covers the same stuff available?

Just look at Bill's notes section for the podcast.  There are links to the most important documents that were referenced.

http://www.mormondiscussionpodcast.org/2016/09/premium-adam-god-historical-subterfuge/

 

Also checkout this website for a more sources:

http://www.adamgod.com/

 

 

 

Edited by Oliver_Cowdery
1
Flexible Contributor

Flexible

Posted
Posted
40 minutes ago, rongo said:

Any ideas on who sent the McConkie/England letter to the Tanners? I asked Sandra Tanner, and she said it was sent anonymously. Eugene England was out of town when the letter arrived, and someone opened it, copied it (CONFIDENTIAL; DO NOT COPY is stamped on every page), and sent it to them. Had to have been a BYU employee with access to the mail in that department, obviously. 

I'm fascinated by the "mole" mentality of highly-placed leakers who invariably leak privileged information. 

 

I cannot remember where I heard or read it, but I did just recently. England was traveling when the letter was leaked. When he learned of it, he advised McConkie. I cannot vouch for the accuracy of this. It could be total fiction. 

Flexible Contributor

Flexible

Posted
Posted
38 minutes ago, cdowis said:

FWIW, many decades ago (using Compuserv or AOL), I was discussing this topic, and she told me the story that she had visited her grandmother in the nursing home.  She told how BY had come to their town for a visit, and was visiting with her father.  Before leaving, BY told him that he had a great joke that he was going to play on the Saints.

He didn't give the details.  But it reminded me of the talk that he gave where he told the members to get their own testimony on what the church leaders were preaching, not to take everything they said without finding out for themselves if it were true.

While this is all fourth hand, it seems to me to give the best explanation of the Adam-God theory.  Why did he continue the "joke" is a problem.  Perhaps it may have taken on a life on its own, and he went too far with it.

Anyway, it's an interesting idea.

Well that's an interesting theory. He had Adam-God included in the lecture at the veil in the St George Temple.  Was that part of the joke too?  I think you can put that explanation to rest. 

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