Lds View Of Godhead / Trinity

[Alma 11:44]

No, it is not...at least not in LDS doctrine or in the scriptures, including the Book of Mormon and the Bible.

 

It may be in some creedal Christians' formulations of their beliefs.

 

Have you read the links I posted yet?

Never said it was LDS thinking just a reference to the 4th and 5th century Creeds

[JLHPROF]

http://i.imgur.com/HmLQXiL.jpg

Doesn't Alma 11:44 teach all three persons of the Godhead in Genesis chapter 1 were Fatherless and Motherless ?

[JLHPROF]

Nope.  Not at all.

Alma 11:44 Now, this restoration shall come to all, both old and young, both bond and free, both male and female, both the wicked and the righteous; and even there shall not so much as a hair of their heads be lost; but every thing shall be restored to its perfect frame, as it is now, or in the body, and shall be brought and be arraigned before the bar of Christ the Son, and God the Father, and the Holy Spirit, which is one Eternal God, to be judged according to their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil.

 

Interestingly this does state that all three members of the Godhead will judge us, not just Christ as some have thought.

The final judgement is going to feature a LOT of judges I think.

[mfbukowski]

Your link starts with Isa 41 not 40

No it does not. Did you actually read it? The question is WHO is the person Isaiah, what "he" wrote and whether or not "he" was a prophet at all.

The problem starts with Chapter 40

This is the kind of thing that gives you a serious credibility problem here- you are here to preach and not to discuss. You respond to nothing and just keep repeating the same material. You assert assert assert and then do not respond.

That is a surefire way to get banned.

[mfbukowski]

Nope.  Not at all.

Alma 11:44 Now, this restoration shall come to all, both old and young, both bond and free, both male and female, both the wicked and the righteous; and even there shall not so much as a hair of their heads be lost; but every thing shall be restored to its perfect frame, as it is now, or in the body, and shall be brought and be arraigned before the bar of Christ the Son, and God the Father, and the Holy Spirit, which is one Eternal God, to be judged according to their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil.

That is the problem indeed. Smoke and mirrors.

[mfbukowski]

Never said it was LDS thinking just a reference to the 4th and 5th century Creeds

Which is irrelevant because we do not accept them. Assertion with no connection to the argument- again. Totally irrelevant.

I am just pointing these out in the hopes someone will actually notice what is happening here.

[Calm]

I have...

 

I think Kevin has too and the PROF

[Alma 11:44]

Which is irrelevant because we do not accept them. Assertion with no connection to the argument- again. Totally irrelevant.

I am just pointing these out in the hopes someone will actually notice what is happening here.

Never said you agreed with the Creeds, I do and so does the Book of Mormon .

[Calm]

I do and so does the Book of Mormon

 

So you didn't read the links.

[Alma 11:44]

Just give me some proof texts that disagree with the Creeds in the Book of Mormon

[JLHPROF]

That is a surefire way to get banned.

 

LIke so many "traditional" Christians before him...

[JLHPROF]

Never said you agreed with the Creeds, I do and so does the Book of Mormon .

 

No it doesn't, and neither does the Bible.  Just the same old 1700ish year old minterpretations.

[Calm]

Just give me some proof texts that disagree with the Creeds in the Book of Mormon

So you didn't read the links....

[Alma 11:44]

Just give one verse in the Book of Mormon that disagrees with the Creeds , I know I can give that agree:

Mormon 7:

7 And he hath brought to pass the redemption of the world, whereby he that is found guiltless before him at the judgment day hath it given unto him to dwell in the presence of God in his kingdom, to sing ceaseless praises with the choirs above, unto the Father, and unto the Son, and unto the Holy Ghost, which are one God, in a state of happiness which hath no end.

The Testimony of Three Witnesses

And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen.

Oliver Cowdery

David Whitmer

Martin Harris

2 Nephi 31:

21 And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen.

Alma 11:

44 Now, this restoration shall come to all, both old and young, both bond and free, both male and female, both the wicked and the righteous; and even there shall not so much as a hair of their heads be lost; but everything shall be restored to its perfect frame, as it is now, or in the body, and shall be brought and be arraigned before the bar of Christ the Son, and God the Father, and the Holy Spirit, which is one Eternal God, to be judged according to their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil.

2 Nephi 26:12 And as I spake concerning the convincing of the Jews, that Jesus is the very Christ, it must needs be that the Gentiles be convinced also that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God;

3 Nephi 11:17 Hosanna! Blessed be the name of the Most High God! And they did fall down at the feet of Jesus, and did worship him.

Moroni 7:22 For behold, God knowing all things, being from everlasting to everlasting , behold, he sent angels to minister unto the children of men, to make manifest concerning the coming of Christ; and in Christ there should come every good thing.

2 Nephi 27:23

For behold, I am god; and I am a God of miracles; and I will show unto the world that I am the same yesterday, today, and forever; and I work not among the children of men save it be according to their faith.

2 Nephi 29:9

And I do this that I may prove unto many that I am the same yesterday, today, and forever; and that I speak forth my words according to mine own pleasure. And because that I have spoken one word ye need not suppose that I cannot speak another; for my work is not yet finished; neither shall it be until the end of man, neither from that time henceforth and forever.

Moroni 8:18 For I know that God is not a partial God, neither a changeable being; but he is unchangeable from all eternity to all eternity.

Mormon 9:9 For do we not read that God is the same yesterday, today, and forever , and in him there is no variableness neither shadow of changing?

Mormon 9:19

And if there were miracles wrought then, why has God ceased to be a God of miracles and yet be an unchanging Being? And behold, I say unto you he changeth not; if so he would cease to be God; and he ceaseth not to be God, and is a God of miracles.”

Hebrews 12: 8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

2 Nephi 19:9 And I do this that I may prove unto many that I am the same yesterday, today, and forever; and that I speak forth my words according to mine own pleasure. And because that I have spoken one word ye need not suppose that I cannot speak another; for my work is not yet finished; neither shall it be until the end of man, neither from that time henceforth and forever.

Moroni 7:22

For behold, God knowing all things, being from everlasting to everlasting, behold, he sent angels to minister unto the children of men, to make manifest concerning the coming of Christ; and in Christ there should come every good thing.

[JLHPROF]

Just give one verse in the Book of Mormon that disagrees with the Creeds , I know I can give that agree:

 

The flaw is in your definition of "God".  The scriptures aren't saying what you think they are.  None of them agree with the creeds.

When the scripture says they are "one God" it means, to borrow a Mormon term, they are as members of a Bishopric.

It has nothing to do with essence, substance, or any other indefinite "..nce".

 

The Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are members of the Godhead, a group of three personages.  There is no mysterious essence connecting them other than their united mission.  Three people, one quorum, like any other presidency in the Church.

 

You do realize your argument is probably the 4th time this year alone someone has popped on the board with the same old interpretation of scripture?  Nothing new to see here.

Edited July 3, 2015 by JLHPROF

[Calm]

Still demonstrating you didnt read the links I posted.

Nor are you incorporating anything that Kevin pointed out.

Given this, why should anyone here believe that you will engage with anything we post?

Edited July 3, 2015 by calmoriah

[Anakin7]

       God The Father is The Monarch of The Universe/God The Son Jesus Christ is The Vice Monarch, The Lord of Life,Lord,Redeemer,Saviour,God, King,Master of The Universe/The Awesome Holy Ghost/Spirit is The Testator/Sanctifier of The Universe - they form a Monarch Kingdom Presidency, are seperate physicaly but one in Love/Covenant/Authority/Will,Power,Wisdom. They all are in possesion of The True God Nature. The Son and Holy Ghost/Spirit are in subordination to The Father,The Holy Ghost/Spirit is in subjection to The Son.

 

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

             Anakin7

Edited July 3, 2015 by Anakin7

[Auggybendoggy]

Seems to me both sides have their difficulties.  While I see no importance in the doctrine of the trinity or lack of, the case is not settled for me.  When theism is argued, trinitarianism has it's appeal because it avoids the endless regression of Gods.  Christian theists look to an eternal God as the only eplanation to our existence. 

 

On the other hand, Trinitarians seem to want to use science and history to explain it and that's when things seem to fall apart.  As it's so widley argued - how is Jesus praying to God if he is God?  The only response is "mystery".  Well if mystery is evidence for an argument, then any contradiction can be acceptable.

 

[ERayR]

Seems to me both sides have their difficulties.  While I see no importance in the doctrine of the trinity or lack of, the case is not settled for me.  When theism is argued, trinitarianism has it's appeal because it avoids the endless regression of Gods.  Christian theists look to an eternal God as the only eplanation to our existence. 

 

On the other hand, Trinitarians seem to want to use science and history to explain it and that's when things seem to fall apart.  As it's so widley argued - how is Jesus praying to God if he is God?  The only response is "mystery".  Well if mystery is evidence for an argument, then any contradiction can be acceptable.

 

 

Why is endless regression a problem?

[Auggybendoggy]

 

Why is endless regression a problem?

It seems to always beg the question.

[Calm]

What about where the First Cause/God came from? Does saying it/he was always here give us any more info than claiming infinite regression?

[ERayR]

It seems to always beg the question.

 

How?

[TheSkepticChristian]

Why is endless regression a problem?

 

It creates many paradoxes. There is a difference between potential infinity and actual infinity. 

 

 

It seems to always beg the question.

 

and the First cause begs the question too, it is a bigger problem. How can a God think before time? 

 

 

 

Christian theists look to an eternal God as the only eplanation to our existence. 

 

 

The problem of evil is a problem for Trinitarians too. In ex nihilo, God creates the rules 

 

Edited July 3, 2015 by TheSkepticChristian

[danielwoods]

What about where the First Cause/God came from? Does saying it/he was always here give us any more info than claiming infinite regression?

 

I think either is possible, which means the question to my mind is which is taught in scripture? 

 

The description in the Biblical text is a God that is from "everlasting to everlasting" a term used to describe his eternal nature. In my quick search of the BoM it also uses this phrase:

Moroni 7:22 "For behold, God knowing all things, being from everlasting to everlasting,"

 

Now, I'm not trying to tell you or any LDS how they believe, I'm only trying to support this idea with LDS scripture. 

 

If God alone is described in this way, in what way could there be an infinite regression of an infinite number of Gods? And what evidence is there for such a situation in scripture? 

Edited July 4, 2015 by danielwoods

[Alma 11:44]

The flaw is in your definition of "God".  The scriptures aren't saying what you think they are.  None of them agree with the creeds.

When the scripture says they are "one God" it means, to borrow a Mormon term, they are as members of a Bishopric.

It has nothing to do with essence, substance, or any other indefinite "..nce".

 

The Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are members of the Godhead, a group of three personages.  There is no mysterious essence connecting them other than their united mission.  Three people, one quorum, like any other presidency in the Church.

 

You do realize your argument is probably the 4th time this year alone someone has popped on the board with the same old interpretation of scripture?  Nothing new to see here.

Since the creeds teach three separate and distinct personages represent the ONE GOD, I'm not sure you know the Creeds teachings

first used by Theophilus (A.D. 168 A.D. - 183 A.D.), or from the Lat. trinitas, first used by Tertullian (A.D. 220 A.D.), to express this doctrine. The propositions involved in the doctrine are these: 1. That God is one, and that there is but one God (Deut 6:4; 1 Kings 8:60; Isa 44:6; Mark 12:29,32; John 10:30). 2. That the Father is a distinct divine Person (hypostasis, subsistentia, persona, suppositum intellectuale), distinct from the Son and the Holy Spirit. 3. That Jesus Christ was truly God, and yet was a Person distinct from the Father and the Holy Spirit. 4. That the Holy Spirit is also a distinct divine Person.

(from Easton's Bible Dictionary, PC Study Bible formatted electronic database Copyright © 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.)

God- Godhead- Substance- Essence- Being [ all Synonyms ]

There were two major Latin words involved. The first is substantia, Although the word was idiomatically to mean “goods” or “property” and in a legal sense to denote “ that to which two or more parties could share legal claim,” there never was never much doubt as to what the Church Fathers intended when using substantia was simply the being of God. Thus to say , with the Latin orthodox theologians, that Father,Son, and Spirit were consubstantialis was to say that they shared the same basic “thing” or “what” that they were: namely, they were God.