Who Is The Biblical God?

[Avatar4321]

The only way to know is to personally experience Christ. Personal revelation is the only way to know God.

[3DOP]

I am confused here why are we discussing Bahai references with respect to the Bible?

 

Maybe I was mistaken too. I thought that the person who started the thread invites non-LDS points of view. I would be confused if he wished to exclude the Bahai teachings:

Any and all thoughts are well appreciated.  

 

 

Bubbachen, I am not Bahai, but if you are going for Latter-day revelation, you need to know that the Mormons aren't the only game in town. The blog which I recommended earlier is hosted by a guy who along with appreciating the LDS Scriptures has a high esteem for Bahai claims. I am Catholic so I am satisfied with Tradition, but once you are cut loose from that, it gets really interesting (er...complicated) . The Bahais are not without some pretty compelling arguments and as if you are commited to Latter-day revelation as a biblical arbiter (instead of Tradition), they should not in my opinion be ignored.

 

If, as some seem to think, you want non-LDS to bow out, just say the word. I don't want to shove non-LDS views at somebody who is adamantly opposed.

Edited October 19, 2013 by 3DOP

[mfbukowski]

I disagree with this point.

Basically the Gospel did not come into a cultural or religious vacuum, it addressed the ideas of the day, and referenced various Greek philosophical and religious ideas.

Various ideas that Jesus used to explain His station, things such as the logos are pre-Gospel ideas of the Greeks.

Although Greek philosophy is not pre-requisite to understanding the Gospel (and the person who provided the explanation in my link was not even Greek), it is a good (imo) explanation of the station of Christ as advanced by the Gospel, and the view that something is unbiblical on the basis of it's similarity to Greek ideas is not a scholarly informed view (imo).

I know about all these things, and you are continuing the derail.

I have studied the Baha'i faith and know more than you think

[mfbukowski]

Basically the Gospel did not come into a cultural or religious vacuum, it addressed the ideas of the day, and referenced various Greek philosophical and religious ideas.

Actually the OP was talking about "the gospel" of Mormonism.  Of course there were Greek influences to the NT but LDS would say that is where the original gospel that Jesus established lost its way.   We can talk about the apostasy if you like, but that is not the topic of the thread.

[Stone holm]

Maybe I was mistaken too. I thought that the person who started the thread invites non-LDS points of view. I would be confused if he wished to exclude the Bahai teachings:

 

Bubbachen, I am not Bahai, but if you are going for Latter-day revelation, you need to know that the Mormons aren't the only game in town. The blog which I recommended earlier is hosted by a guy who along with appreciating the LDS Scriptures has a high esteem for Bahai claims. I am Catholic so I am satisfied with Tradition, but once you are cut loose from that, it gets really interesting (er...complicated) . The Bahais are not without some pretty compelling arguments and as if you are commited to Latter-day revelation as a biblical arbiter (instead of Tradition), they should not in my opinion be ignored.

 

If, as some seem to think, you want non-LDS to bow out, just say the word. I don't want to shove non-LDS views at somebody who is adamantly opposed.

Well, I investigated the Bahai a long time before I investigated the LDS Church, but was not aware that they particularly emphasized the Bible but rather the teachings of Bahualah (sp?) , although I understood they accepted Moses and Christ as prophets along with Mohamed ... But don't recall them emphasizing the Bible. I suspect the Catholics would disagree on the Trinity as they incorporated a lot of Greek philosophic thought into Christianity via Paul's convoluted writings. But not sure it is fair to criticize them because without Joseph Smith...it would I'm estimation be a little difficult to come to the conclusion that the God of the OT and the God of the NT are the same God.

[3DOP]

Well, I investigated the Bahai a long time before I investigated the LDS Church, but was not aware that they particularly emphasized the Bible but rather the teachings of Bahualah (sp?) , although I understood they accepted Moses and Christ as prophets along with Mohamed ... But don't recall them emphasizing the Bible. I suspect the Catholics would disagree on the Trinity as they incorporated a lot of Greek philosophic thought into Christianity via Paul's convoluted writings. But not sure it is fair to criticize them because without Joseph Smith...it would I'm estimation be a little difficult to come to the conclusion that the God of the OT and the God of the NT are the same God.

 

 

Stone holm, I've been here as a regular since 2004 and I have only 2,468 posts because I stay out for days and weeks at a time. I wait. I wait for people to say things like "any and all comments are appreciated." If he doesn't want my opinions, he needs to say so.

 

I have been in the same room with Bahai guys that are more than sharp about the 66 Book Protestant Bible. I am not pushing Bahai. Make no mistake, however I sound, I would subtly edge someone closer to the Catholic Church. There it is. Regardless, I don't think this fellow should judge Bahai claims on the basis of my experience or yours or anybody else's. He might want to be aware that there are very intelligent Bahais who make good use of the Koran in conjunction with a Bible that leaves out a few books (according to my faith).

 

3DOP

[Stone holm]

Stone holm, I've been here as a regular since 2004 and I have only 2,468 posts because I stay out for days and weeks at a time. I wait. I wait for people to say things like "any and all comments are appreciated." If he doesn't want my opinions, he needs to say so.

 

I have been in the same room with Bahai guys that are more than sharp about the 66 Book Protestant Bible. I am not pushing Bahai. Make no mistake, however I sound, I would subtly edge someone closer to the Catholic Church. There it is. Regardless, I don't think this fellow should judge Bahai claims on the basis of my experience or yours or anybody else's. He might want to be aware that there are very intelligent Bahais who make good use of the Koran in conjunction with a Bible that leaves out a few books (according to my faith).

 

3DOP

Well we kind of accept those left out books...it's just that The Lord did not view them as a priority at the time and then Joseph Smith went and got shot before getting back to them.

[danieldemol]

Well, I investigated the Bahai a long time before I investigated the LDS Church, but was not aware that they particularly emphasized the Bible but rather the teachings of Bahualah (sp?) , although I understood they accepted Moses and Christ as prophets along with Mohamed ... But don't recall them emphasizing the Bible.

Where Jesus referred to statements found in the Jewish scriptures, and explained them, Christians typically see the explanations in the Gospel as correct, without denying the validity of the Old Testament references.

Likewise Baha'is accept the interpretation of Baha'u'llah, whilst accepting the authenticity of the Gospel message.

This is different to the view of MF in that we only question the extent to which the meaning of the words was lost, but do not consider the actual words themselves to be lost.

[Stone holm]

Where Jesus referred to statements found in the Jewish scriptures, and explained them, Christians typically see the explanations in the Gospel as correct, without denying the validity of the Old Testament references.

Likewise Baha'is accept the interpretation of Baha'u'llah, whilst accepting the authenticity of the Gospel message.

This is different to the view of MF in that we only question the extent to which the meaning of the words was lost, but do not consider the actual words themselves to be lost.

Got to admit,I was mainly attracted to theme cause of two folk singers of the time.

[volgadon]

Various ideas that Jesus used to explain His station, things such as the logos are pre-Gospel ideas of the Greeks.

 

While the word logos is Greek, the concept itself is not, as Daniel Boyarin has ably shown.

[danieldemol]

Who is Daniel Boyarin?

[3DOP]

Who is Daniel Boyarin?

 

Do a search danieldemol.

 

Daniel Boyarin seems to have spoken a bit about John 1.

 

http://www.resurrectingraleigh.com/2013/02/11/daniel-boyarin-on-the-jewish-roots-of-john-1/

 

John 1 "fans" should take note that until the innovational Mass of Pope Paul VI, the Roman Catholic Church recited John 1 after every single low Mass, which is to say every day of the week in every Catholic Church for at least a thousand years. The Catholic Church has backed away from it only recently, but traditionally she has recognized the profound significance of John 1. In addition to the recitation, there is a genuflection at the words, "the Word became flesh."

 

PS: deleted a bit of my own self-exuberance. I get carried away theologically sometimes.

 

PPS: If you are interested in something that is great...albeit in the natural order...albeit non-salvific...but permissible in this brief mortality...please...take a peek at Birth of the Bluz (Social Hall).

 

Love, Rory

Edited October 19, 2013 by 3DOP

[volgadon]

Do a search danieldemol.

 

Daniel Boyarin seems to have spoken a bit about John 1.

 

http://www.resurrectingraleigh.com/2013/02/11/daniel-boyarin-on-the-jewish-roots-of-john-1/

 

John 1 "fans" should take note that until the innovational Mass of Pope Paul VI, the Roman Catholic Church recited John 1 after every single low Mass, which is to say every day of the week in every Catholic Church for at least a thousand years. The Catholic Church has backed away from it only recently, but traditionally she has recognized the profound significance of John 1. In addition to the recitation, there is a genuflection at the words, "the Word became flesh." I am so happy to be...what I am. Don't want to steal anybody else's joy. You're happy? Great. Me too.

 

Rory, thanks for finding that well-done summary. It touches upon some of the major points of Boyarin's argument. Here is the actual article, which he has since epanded into a book. http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CCsQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fnes.berkeley.edu%2FWeb_Boyarin%2FBoyarinArticles%2F108%2520Gospel%2520of%2520the%2520Memra%2520(2001).pdf&ei=kRxiUs6TNePkyAGjnYHoCA&usg=AFQjCNHEiRWvJcN8hk5-ieUHLbrjQEob0A&bvm=bv.54934254,d.aWc

 

I also find your brief remark about Catholic liturgy fascinating.

[volgadon]

Versions ARE important.  Some versions of the Bible are written with agendas in mind.  Some translations are better than others.  Some include ancient interpolations that were added much later (Johannine Comma, for instance).  So, understanding versions IS important.  Understanding background is also important.

 

Even the NAME of God can be important. While I believe Allah is the same as the Father, there still are significant differences.  Islam does not have Jesus as Savior, Redeemer or the Way.  Their reading of Jesus' life and purpose clearly is different than that found in the Bible.

 

You do realise that you are conflating the Arabic term for God- Allah- with Muslim theology, which is not at all the same thing.

[danieldemol]

Thanks 3DOP,

This quote comes from your link

"To support his thesis, Boyarin adduces numerous passages from Jewish writings parallel to John’s line of thought. Take for instance the follwing passage from the Jewish philosopher Philo"

Philo was a Hellenic Jewish Greek Philosopher,

Wikipedia (sorry for not having a more scholarly resource at the drop of a hat) states this about Philo in it's "logos" article;

Philo of Alexandria[edit]

Philo (20 BC – 50 AD), a Hellenized Jew, used the term Logos to mean an intermediary divine being, or demiurge.[6] Philo followed the Platonic distinction between imperfect matter and perfect idea, and therefore intermediary beings were necessary to bridge the enormous gap between God and the material world.[26] The Logos was the highest of these intermediary beings, and was called by Philo "the first-born of God."[26] Philo also wrote that "the Logos of the living God is the bond of everything, holding all things together and binding all the parts, and prevents them from being dissolved and separated."[27]

The Platonic Ideas were located within the Logos, but the Logos also acted on behalf of God in the physical world.[26] In particular, the Angel of the Lord in the Hebrew Bible (Old Testament) was identified with the Logos by Philo, who also said that the Logos was God's instrument in the creation of the universe.[26]

Christianity

Christ the Logos[edit]

Main article: Logos (Christianity)...

...Gospel of John, 1:1–18.

The Christian concept of the Logos is derived from the first chapter of the Gospel of John, where the Logos (often translated as “Word”) is described in terms that resemble, but likely surpass, the ideas of Philo:[28]

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it.

What clearly emerges here is that Greek philosophy and the Gospel are not mutually exclusive, rather there is some overlap. Thus it is not correct to say that an idea being found in Greek philosophy demonstrates non-Biblical nature, owing to the presence of some ideas being found in both.

I'm happy that you are happy, and certainly do not require anyone to adopt the option in my link. My objection was centred around what I saw as an attempt to dismiss consideration of another option on the basis of who it is alleged to have been from.

I don't know of any Biblical scholarly qualifications that Joseph Smith had anyway *shrugs*

[3DOP]

Thanks 3DOP,

This quote comes from your link

"To support his thesis, Boyarin adduces numerous passages from Jewish writings parallel to John’s line of thought. Take for instance the follwing passage from the Jewish philosopher Philo"

Philo was a Hellenic Jewish Greek Philosopher,

Wikipedia (sorry for not having a more scholarly resource at the drop of a hat) states this about Philo in it's "logos" article;

What clearly emerges here is that Greek philosophy and the Gospel are not mutually exclusive, rather there is some overlap. Thus it is not correct to say that an idea being found in Greek philosophy demonstrates non-Biblical nature, owing to the presence of some ideas being found in both.

I'm happy that you are happy, and certainly do not require anyone to adopt the option in my link. My objection was centred around what I saw as an attempt to dismiss consideration of another option on the basis of who it is alleged to have been from.

I don't know of any Biblical scholarly qualifications that Joseph Smith had anyway *shrugs*

 

 

Heh, Daniel.

 

I deleted the "I'm happy" stuff as self-serving...but thanks for the support!

 

Centred? Good on you. God love you you're an Englishmen, however far away you are. I'm a few leagues from home myself.

 

Nobody can reasonably say they are for or against "Greek philosophy". Different Greeks are the foundation of every current philosophy. That's my position about it, There is "Greek philosophy" I like. There is Greek philosophy I abhor.

 

Hint: I abhor Greek philosophy that leads to epistemological agnosticism. I believe in objective realism.

[mfbukowski]

Got to admit,I was mainly attracted to theme cause of two folk singers of the time.

Seals and Crofts.

[mfbukowski]

The Catholic Church has backed away from it only recently, but traditionally she has recognized the profound significance of John 1.

Dang.

Another one bites the dust.  My mom would be very sad.

Edited October 19, 2013 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

You do realise that you are conflating the Arabic term for God- Allah- with Muslim theology, which is not at all the same thing.

I took a course once on Ibn Sina - most don't realize how close Muslim theology is to the Catholic- and I see of lot of that in the writings of Baha'u'llah.  Neoplatonism mixed with Aristotelianism is what it is.  There are only so many options.  The whole notion that an embodied God could not be "perfect" is a perfect example. 

[3DOP]

No worries Mark.

 

I am among those who doesn't recognize the present as being of any extra importance as regards what might be true. Heh. Your Mom and anyone else who wishes is welcome on the bandwagon.

Edited October 19, 2013 by 3DOP

[mfbukowski]

Thanks 3DOP,

This quote comes from your link

"To support his thesis, Boyarin adduces numerous passages from Jewish writings parallel to John’s line of thought. Take for instance the follwing passage from the Jewish philosopher Philo"

Philo was a Hellenic Jewish Greek Philosopher,

Wikipedia (sorry for not having a more scholarly resource at the drop of a hat) states this about Philo in it's "logos" article;

What clearly emerges here is that Greek philosophy and the Gospel are not mutually exclusive, rather there is some overlap. Thus it is not correct to say that an idea being found in Greek philosophy demonstrates non-Biblical nature, owing to the presence of some ideas being found in both.

I'm happy that you are happy, and certainly do not require anyone to adopt the option in my link. My objection was centred around what I saw as an attempt to dismiss consideration of another option on the basis of who it is alleged to have been from.

I don't know of any Biblical scholarly qualifications that Joseph Smith had anyway *shrugs*

Again, you don't seem to understand Mormonism at all.  Not one bit.

 

We relish the fact that Joseph did not need "qualifications" to be a prophet and Mormon theology is diametrically opposed to Philo and Ibn Sina and your Messenger as well.  You are just showing your lack of understanding.  Maybe you should learn a little bit before you start condemning.

[danieldemol]

I didn't perceive it to be self serving anyway

Centred? Good on you. God love you you're an Englishmen, however far away you are. I'm a few leagues from home myself.

The cultural heritage tends to make itself known in commonwealth countries such as Australia

[mfbukowski]

No worries Mark.

 

I am among those who doesn't recognize the present as being of any extra importance as regards what might be true. Heh. Your Mom and anyone else who wishes is welcome on the bandwagon.

Well the fact is, I would love to attend a good old Tridentine Mass one of these days.  But it would have to have some Gregorian Chant going with it as well.  Fix me up with that and maybe I will fly to wherever you are if I can. 

[3DOP]

Bukowski...as it happens...I'll be in SoCal next week...Sunday will be the Feast of Christ the King...I kind of need to go where my son goes in Colton, I don't think Colton is having High Mass. No chant. But Gregorian Chant is alive and well in my world anyway. I would meet you for the Feast of All Saints on Friday. Lunch after? Are you retired? I'll bet Arcadia, Our Lady of the Angels has a Pontifical High Mass.

 

I went to a Dodger game with the boy in May. They were stinking. Bad. And then this Puig shows up. I would rather watch that guy walk to right field than I would most players pitch or swing a bat. What a physical specimen! Anyway...I had to console my police boy tonight, I mean...what a long way they came from the spring. Willie Mays was like that...Puig I mean. You just wanted to see him run or even walk. Its going to fun baseball in L.A. for awhile. (IMHO as they say) I had saved my Dodger hat and was hoping for the Series to be happening for our visit. Oh well.

 

3DOP

[mfbukowski]

Bukowski...as it happens...I'll be in SoCal next week...Sunday will be the Feast of Christ the King...I kind of need to go where my son goes in Colton, I don't think Colton is having High Mass. No chant. But Gregorian Chant is alive and well in my world anyway. I would meet you for the Feast of All Saints on Friday. Lunch after? Are you retired? I'll bet Arcadia, Our Lady of the Angels has a Pontifical High Mass.

 

I went to a Dodger game with the boy in May. They were stinking. Bad. And then this Puig shows up. I would rather watch that guy walk to right field than I would most players pitch or swing a bat. What a physical specimen! Anyway...I had to console my police boy tonight, I mean...what a long way they came from the spring. Willie Mays was like that...Puig I mean. You just wanted to see him run or even walk. Its going to fun baseball in L.A. for awhile. (IMHO as they say) I had saved my Dodger hat and was hoping for the Series to be happening for our visit. Oh well.

 

3DOP

Hey- Sunday is out because I am tied up all day doing my callings, but Friday is a definite maybe!  Colton is far, Arcadia is closer by far, but I also have a wedding reception in the evening that I don't want to miss.  Maybe just lunch will work- but if it works out, i would love to meet with you!  Let's PM and figure it out if we can!  Dodgers washed out tonight so I guess you can kiss that part good bye!