Who Is The Biblical God?

[mfbukowski]

Quite to the contrary, I used the words literal and illogical, not dumb.

The Jews expected Elijah to literally precede the first coming of the Messiah, whilst Jesus insisted it occurred figuratively as John the Baptist.

Whilst you may consider those Jews to have followed an illogical literalist doctrine, if you consider them dummies on account of this then by associating "dummy" with "illogical literalist" you are self projecting connotations onto me which I do not share.

I said none of these things- I really don't have a clue where you are getting these ideas.  I never said anything about literalism being illogical- I don't even know what the word means, nor did I say that anyone is a dummy.

 

Plucked out of the air.  Read what I said ok?  I said that I thought that YOU thought that Mormons were "dummies". 

 

But this is all just a diversion from the Neoplatonism issue.   Anyway, those who read this all can judge for themselves- I have posted a whole lot about Neoplatonism around here for several years now and everyone knows the drill by now I am sure.  Just ask good old 3DOP. 

 

Anyway we are obviously not communicating well so it might be best just to drop the subject anyway.

[mfbukowski]

I believe God is embodied figuratively speaking, whilst you believe God is literally embodied.

Not really.

 

I believe that the BELIEF that God is embodied is the most enriching and enobling belief one can have to enable a human being to reach their fullest potential.

[theplains]

I'm actually a very good Mormon, though I think independently. I am not endowed and not likely to be endowed, so I do not have to conform precisely; the carrot on a stick is absent. 

 

You are the first Mormon I have ever met which denies that Jesus is God. You don't seem to

believe in your own Book of Mormon teachings - 2 Nephi 26:12; Mosiah 3:5-8.

 

Are there others which believe like you in your ward?

 

Regards,

Jim

[Stone holm]

You are the first Mormon I have ever met which denies that Jesus is God. You don't seem to

believe in your own Book of Mormon teachings - 2 Nephi 26:12; Mosiah 3:5-8.

 

Are there others which believe like you in your ward?

 

Regards,

Jim

Although you said it a bit harshly, I agree Mormon doctrine teaches Christ is The Lord, a member of the Godhead and hence a God, and the God that does most of the interacting with mankind in the Old Testament, I cannot imagine it being taught else wise anywhere in the Church.

[EllenMaksoud]

You are the first Mormon I have ever met which denies that Jesus is God. You don't seem to

believe in your own Book of Mormon teachings - 2 Nephi 26:12; Mosiah 3:5-8.

 

Are there others which believe like you in your ward?

 

Regards,

Jim

Oh dear, does this mean I have to go back through the Missionary Discussions again? Shades !

 

I know that in the NT Jesus said, "I and the Father are one." and I have always interpreted that to mean that he and the Father are of one mind; agreed.  "He also says, "No man cometh to the Father but by me."

 

Boyd K Packer quoted Matt 16: 15-16, "Thou art the Christ, the son of the living God".

[volgadon]

You are the first Mormon I have ever met which denies that Jesus is God. You don't seem to

believe in your own Book of Mormon teachings - 2 Nephi 26:12; Mosiah 3:5-8.

 

Are there others which believe like you in your ward?

 

Regards,

Jim

 

 

You should be aware that Jim is a non-Mormon with less than a basic grasp of LDS teachings.

[EllenMaksoud]

Although you said it a bit harshly, I agree Mormon doctrine teaches Christ is The Lord, a member of the Godhead and hence a God, and the God that does most of the interacting with mankind in the Old Testament, I cannot imagine it being taught else wise anywhere in the Church.

I have to take that under advisement, and study the issue more.

[Stone holm]

Oh dear, does this mean I have to go back through the Missionary Discussions again? Shades !

 

I know that in the NT Jesus said, "I and the Father are one." and I have always interpreted that to mean that he and the Father are of one mind; agreed.  "He also says, "No man cometh to the Father but by me."

 

Boyd K Packer quoted Matt 16: 15-16, "Thou art the Christ, the son of the living God".

Sounds like you might have dozed off during at least one, it's been almost forty years, but am pretty sure they still teach investigators that Christ is Jehovah and the God that does most of the interaction in the OT. Heavenly Father or Eloheim normally limits Himself to introducing His Son. Although am not sure Who interacts with Adam in the beginning.

[EllenMaksoud]

You should be aware that Jim is a non-Mormon with less than a basic grasp of LDS teachings.

Thank you.

[EllenMaksoud]

Sounds like you might have dozed off during at least one, it's been almost forty years, but am pretty sure they still teach investigators that Christ is Jehovah and the God that does most of the interaction in the OT. Heavenly Father or Eloheim normally limits Himself to introducing His Son. Although am not sure Who interacts with Adam in the beginning.

Thanks. It never hurts to be challenged.  I am still staunchly monotheistic and just took that from the First Commandment in the OK. Muslims practice that also. So, I am going to spend the rest of the evening reviewing the Bom, and will talk to the Missionaries tomorrow. I'm willing to be counseled by you and other Mormons on the board.

[Stone holm]

Thanks. It never hurts to be challenged.  I am still staunchly monotheistic and just took that from the First Commandment in the OK. Muslims practice that also. So, I am going to spend the rest of the evening reviewing the Bom, and will talk to the Missionaries tomorrow. I'm willing to be counseled by you and other Mormons on the board.

The main reason it hit me from the very first was until I was taught by the missionaries those many years ago, I had always believed that HF was the God of the Old Testament.

[mfbukowski]

 

Who is Jesus Christ?

Jesus Christ is the Savior of the world and the Son of God. He is our Redeemer. Each of these titles points to the truth that Jesus Christ is the only way by which we can return to live with our Heavenly Father.  

Jesus suffered and was crucified for the sins of the world, giving each of God’s children the gift of repentance and forgiveness. Only by His mercy and grace can anyone be saved. His subsequent resurrection prepared the way for every person to overcome physical death as well. These events are called the Atonement. In short, Jesus Christ saves us from sin and death. For that, He is very literally our Savior and Redeemer.

In the future Jesus Christ will return to reign on earth in peace for a thousand years. Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and He will be our Lord forever.

On January 1, 2000, the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve Apostles issued the following declaration. Titled “The Living Christ,” this declaration bears witness of the Lord Jesus Christ and summarizes His identity and divine mission:

“As we commemorate the birth of Jesus Christ two millennia ago, we offer our testimony of the reality of His matchless life and the infinite virtue of His great atoning sacrifice. None other has had so profound an influence upon all who have lived and will yet live upon the earth.

“He was the Great Jehovah of the Old Testament, the Messiah of the New. Under the direction of His Father, He was the creator of the earth. ‘All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made’ (John 1:3). Though sinless, He was baptized to fulfill all righteousness. He ‘went about doing good’ (Acts 10:38), yet was despised for it. His gospel was a message of peace and goodwill. He entreated all to follow His example. He walked the roads of Palestine, healing the sick, causing the blind to see, and raising the dead. He taught the truths of eternity, the reality of our premortal existence, the purpose of our life on earth, and the potential for the sons and daughters of God in the life to come.

“He instituted the sacrament as a reminder of His great atoning sacrifice. He was arrested and condemned on spurious charges, convicted to satisfy a mob, and sentenced to die on Calvary’s cross. He gave His life to atone for the sins of all mankind. His was a great vicarious gift in behalf of all who would ever live upon the earth.

“We solemnly testify that His life, which is central to all human history, neither began in Bethlehem nor concluded on Calvary. He was the Firstborn of the Father, the Only Begotten Son in the flesh, the Redeemer of the world.

“He rose from the grave to ‘become the firstfruits of them that slept’ (1 Corinthians 15:20). As Risen Lord, He visited among those He had loved in life. He also ministered among His ‘other sheep’ (John 10:16) in ancient America. In the modern world, He and His Father appeared to the boy Joseph Smith, ushering in the long-promised ‘dispensation of the fulness of times’ (Ephesians 1:10).

“Of the Living Christ, the Prophet Joseph wrote: ‘His eyes were as a flame of fire; the hair of his head was white like the pure snow; his countenance shone above the brightness of the sun; and his voice was as the sound of the rushing of great waters, even the voice of Jehovah, saying:

“ ‘I am the first and the last; I am he who liveth, I am he who was slain; I am your advocate with the Father’ (D&C 110:3–4).

“Of Him the Prophet also declared: ‘And now, after the many testimonies which have been given of him, this is the testimony, last of all, which we give of him: That he lives!

“ ‘For we saw him, even on the right hand of God; and we heard the voice bearing record that he is the Only Begotten of the Father—

“ ‘That by him, and through him, and of him, the worlds are and were created, and the inhabitants thereof are begotten sons and daughters unto God’ (D&C 76:22–24).

“We declare in words of solemnity that His priesthood and His Church have been restored upon the earth—‘built upon the foundation of … apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone’ (Ephesians 2:20).

“We testify that He will someday return to earth. ‘And the glory of the Lord shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together’ (Isaiah 40:5). He will rule as King of Kings and reign as Lord of Lords, and every knee shall bend and every tongue shall speak in worship before Him. Each of us will stand to be judged of Him according to our works and the desires of our hearts.

“We bear testimony, as His duly ordained Apostles—that Jesus is the Living Christ, the immortal Son of God. He is the great King Immanuel, who stands today on the right hand of His Father. He is the light, the life, and the hope of the world. His way is the path that leads to happiness in this life and eternal life in the world to come. God be thanked for the matchless gift of His divine Son” (Ensign, Apr. 2000, 2–3).

https://www.lds.org/topics/jesus-christ?lang=eng

[EllenMaksoud]

The main reason it hit me from the very first was until I was taught by the missionaries those many years ago, I had always believed that HF was the God of the Old Testament.

Sometimes I mourn the fact that I've had such different exposures to religions. If I had bee born to the covenants it would not be nearly so confusing.   It just never occured to me that Jesus Christ was even around in the OT until I read the first few verses of John.  I have heard certain folk say that they believed that Jesus Christ was Melchizedek, the King of Salem.

 

Now I have to decide if this doctrine of Jesus Christ being God is supportable. Well, and as I think of it, in John it says, "In the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was God." Guess I just talked myself right into the stanchion.  Which in this case makes God and Jesus Christ the same person and if you lump the Holy Spirit in there with them, then you have the Trinity.

[Stone holm]

Sometimes I mourn the fact that I've had such different exposures to religions. If I had bee born to the covenants it would not be nearly so confusing.   It just never occured to me that Jesus Christ was even around in the OT until I read the first few verses of John.  I have heard certain folk say that they believed that Jesus Christ was Melchizedek, the King of Salem.

 

Now I have to decide if this doctrine of Jesus Christ being God is supportable. Well, and as I think of it, in John it says, "In the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was God." Guess I just talked myself right into the stanchion.  Which in this case makes God and Jesus Christ the same person and if you lump the Holy Spirit in there with them, then you have the Trinity.

Not the same person. Think of it as a Presidency, Heavenly Father as the President and Christ and the Holy Ghost as Counselors. We know next to nothing about the personage who is the Holy Ghost, just what He does...that He is a he is possibly an assumption ... But they are three separate personages.

[Calm]

Now I have to decide if this doctrine of Jesus Christ being God is supportable. Well, and as I think of it, in John it says, "In the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was God." Guess I just talked myself right into the stanchion.  Which in this case makes God and Jesus Christ the same person and if you lump the Holy Spirit in there with them, then you have the Trinity.

http://www.lds.org/topics/godhead

 

http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideNav=1&locale=0&sourceId=dc48b00367c45110VgnVCM100000176f620a____&vgnextoid=5158f4b13819d110VgnVCM1000003a94610aRCRD

 

http://www.lds.org/manual/doctrines-of-the-gospel-student-manual/chapter-3-god-the-eternal-father?lang=jpn&clang=eng

 

•

“Three glorified, exalted, and perfected personages comprise the Godhead or supreme presidency of the universe. … They are: God the Father; God the Son; God the Holy Ghost. …“Though each God in the Godhead is a personage, separate and distinct from each of the others, yet they are ‘one God’ … , meaning that they are united as one in the attributes of perfection. For instance, each has the fulness of truth, knowledge, charity, power, justice, judgment, mercy, and faith. Accordingly they all think, act, speak, and are alike in all things; and yet they are three separate and distinct entities. Each occupies space and is and can be in but one place at one time, but each has power and influence that is everywhere present”

 

[EllenMaksoud]

http://www.lds.org/topics/godhead

 

http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideNav=1&locale=0&sourceId=dc48b00367c45110VgnVCM100000176f620a____&vgnextoid=5158f4b13819d110VgnVCM1000003a94610aRCRD

 

http://www.lds.org/manual/doctrines-of-the-gospel-student-manual/chapter-3-god-the-eternal-father?lang=jpn&clang=eng

Thank you.  So, after having read these links, unless my age has finally rendered me daft, I see nothing that says Jesus Christ and Heavenly Father are ONE personage. That is in keeping with the first commandment.  I just don't see it as a critical position in any case. It seems clear that they are of one mind, and purpose however.

 

I've just heard the term, "New Order Mormon", but don't know if I am one because I don't see anything in the church that I would consider a dogma. The church is unique in my experience in that there is steadfast adherence to encouragement and love that I have not seen anywhere before. If that is a dogma, then I like it.

 

I have never been corrected in what I would consider a punitive manner.  And, there is a divergence of opinion on certain issues that I find refreshing.  It was refreshing to me to hear at General Conference that the church has not done every single thing right, but we strive to.

 

Looking at past pre-Mormon church history, many people have died over the so called "Trinity" debate.

[maklelan]

Now I have to decide if this doctrine of Jesus Christ being God is supportable. Well, and as I think of it, in John it says, "In the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was God." Guess I just talked myself right into the stanchion.  Which in this case makes God and Jesus Christ the same person and if you lump the Holy Spirit in there with them, then you have the Trinity.

 

No, you don't have the Trinity. You'd have Sabellianism. According to the Trinity, God is three different persons confined to one being. This is a monumentally important distinction to make for trinitarians. I also disagree with your translation of John 1:1. The Greek really doesn't point to the Trinity. I posted something on this several years ago here.

[EllenMaksoud]

No, you don't have the Trinity. You'd have Sabellianism. According to the Trinity, God is three different persons confined to one being. This is a monumentally important distinction to make for trinitarians. I also disagree with your translation of John 1:1. The Greek really doesn't point to the Trinity. I posted something on this several years ago here.

Well, that is a rather blunt way of stating your position.

 

I don't have credentials other than I love Heavenly Father and study his word at a very basic level in comparison to yours.

[ChristKnight]

Thank you.  So, after having read these links, unless my age has finally rendered me daft, I see nothing that says Jesus Christ and Heavenly Father are ONE personage. That is in keeping with the first commandment.  I just don't see it as a critical position in any case. It seems clear that they are of one mind, and purpose however.

 

 

Now I have to decide if this doctrine of Jesus Christ being God is supportable. Well, and as I think of it, in John it says, "In the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was God." Guess I just talked myself right into the stanchion.  Which in this case makes God and Jesus Christ the same person and if you lump the Holy Spirit in there with them, then you have the Trinity.

 

Neither Trinitarians nor Latter-day Saints view the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost as "one person".  That would be more in line with Modalism or Unitarianism.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabellianism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unitarianism

 

Trinitarians agree with LDS that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are distinct from each other, where, both believe, to use a classic example, Jesus prayed to the Father, and not to Himself.

[CV75]

When I told my bishop that Jesus is everything to me, he answered Jesus isn't everything, that His purpose is to take us to the Father, who is found in the Temple and its rites. The true goal is the Father, not Christ.  So I feel I have to leave the Lord that I know, whom I love, so that I can "progress", I just can't do it.  But scripture points that way.  

 

Any and all thoughts are well appreciated.  

When Jesus brings us to the Father, we don't leave Jesus at all, but we progress with Him and continue to enjoy His companionship more and more. We are joint-heirs (along with everyone else), which means we never leave each other. John 17 teaches all about this.

[CV75]

However, how LDS deal with sin, the process by which Jesus heals us, how we obtain unity with Christ and Father... the internal processes of becoming "worthy" just felt inadequate.  My heart turns away from God so easily and frequently, and I trample on my Lord  and His sacrifice so often, sometimes in deed and more often in thought.  I will never be worthy to enter into the presence of Father no matter how hard I try to change myself, my behavior.  He just loves me, and He dies for me even when I turn away, and I hope He will bring me home to Him through His steadfast love.  This feels right to me.

How do you think LDS deal with sin, forgivenes, healing, unity and worthiness? Some of this is described in 3 Nephi 9:13, as the surviving Nephites fir your self-description very closely!

[theplains]

Oh dear, does this mean I have to go back through the Missionary Discussions again? Shades !

 

I'm just a little surprised that your missionaries did not discuss those Book of Mormon

passages with you (ie. Jesus being God).

 

What do you think of that song with Joseph Smith mingling with the Gods?

 

On the subject of exaltation, maybe your Missionary Discussions skipped over that

part. When you have a moment, look at chapter 47 in the 1997 Gospel Principles,

online at the church's web site.

 

Regards,

Jim

[Tacenda]

I'm just a little surprised that your missionaries did not discuss those Book of Mormon

passages with you (ie. Jesus being God).

What do you think of that song with Joseph Smith mingling with the Gods?

On the subject of exaltation, maybe your Missionary Discussions skipped over that

part. When you have a moment, look at chapter 47 in the 1997 Gospel Principles,

online at the church's web site.

Regards,

Jim

Wow, just read the lesson on Exaltation, what an eye opener. My parents failed to teach me this one. Of course my mom was the stalwart and dad was really just in it to please her. But this lesson passed by me. Is this still in the Deseret Bookstore? It's all there, everything we believe in. Now to someone like Ellen, seems unfair for her to have gone through all the steps but still not get the TR.

[thesometimesaint]

Wow, just read the lesson on Exaltation, what an eye opener. My parents failed to teach me this one. Of course my mom was the stalwart and dad was really just in it to please her. But this lesson passed by me. Is this still in the Deseret Bookstore? It's all there, everything we believe in. Now to someone like Ellen, seems unfair for her to have gone through all the steps but still not get the TR.

 

I'm not her Bishop or Stake President. So of necessity I must defer to them on questions about her Temple attendence.

[Tacenda]

I'm not her Bishop or Stake President. So of necessity I must defer to them on questions about her Temple attendence.

Got it.