rockpond Posted September 30, 2014 Posted September 30, 2014 They were not suppositions. I was told by people who know why they put it there and by people who know what the church does with the funds. Yes, I am quite the moral monster for not honoring your disingenuous CFRs. And you are quite the apostate bent on every hypothetical wrongdoing you can construct done by the church. We all have our crosses to bear. Yours is just more likely to drag you down to hell. Have a nice trip. Nehor you are required to take a request for documentation seriously but now you are leaving the thread anyway.For the record, I have not suggested any intentional wrongdoing by the Church.
Garden Girl Posted September 30, 2014 Posted September 30, 2014 (edited) The church is very adamant about paying tithing. There's punishment for not being a full tithe payer. Tithing is one of the reasons my dad doesn't want to join the church. He doesn't wanna be a part of a religion where he's required to pay money to be a member. He is not required to do anything.... He can join and choose not to follow the Law of Tithing. True, he will miss out on temple blessings (what you obviously view as punishment), but there are lots of members who for one reason or another do not or cannot pay tithing. GG Edited September 30, 2014 by Garden Girl 2
sdc999 Posted September 30, 2014 Posted September 30, 2014 O We entrust people with NO skills at all to be "Judges in Israel". And it shows sometimes.
Sleeper Cell Posted September 30, 2014 Posted September 30, 2014 He is not required to do anything.... He can join and choose not to follow the Law of Tithing. True, he will miss out on temple blessings (what you obviously view as punishment), but there are lots of members who for one reason or another do not or cannot pay tithing. GGTo which I would add the obvious. If missing out on temple blessings is a punishment, isn’t he is inflicting this punishment on himself by choosing not to join? To say nothing of missing out on the other blessings he could receive as a non-tithing member. For that matter, aren’t all of us members missing out on blessings we could otherwise have been receiving had we been more faithful? 1
Raingirl Posted September 30, 2014 Posted September 30, 2014 The church is very adamant about paying tithing. There's punishment for not being a full tithe payer. Tithing is one of the reasons my dad doesn't want to join the church. He doesn't wanna be a part of a religion where he's required to pay money to be a member.What is the punishment meted out by the church for not paying tithing.
Kenngo1969 Posted September 30, 2014 Posted September 30, 2014 (edited) Thanks for the link rockpond. I ask about the money, because I know Jesus would want it going towards the poor. He was all about helping the poor and I feel we should honor that too today.Careful, My Young Padawan. People might mistake you for Judas Iscariot, and I know you wouldn't want that. (See John 12:3-8 ). Edited September 30, 2014 by Kenngo1969 1
will227457 Posted September 30, 2014 Posted September 30, 2014 What is the punishment meted out by the church for not paying tithing.No admittance to the presidents club....aka temple.
Nofear Posted September 30, 2014 Posted September 30, 2014 CFR on this. If, as you describe, the "moneychangers" were providing a service to temple worshippers, and this service was their main source of income so that in addition to their operating expenses they needed to provide food, clothing, shelter etc. for themselves and their families, what would Jesus have considered an acceptable rate of return on their service? Sorry for not responding earlier. I got bored with the thread and had stopped reading it. It is what I had recalled from Talmage's Jesus the Christ. I guess relevant sections are cited here: http://theboard.byu.edu/questions/66691/ Talmage isn't as explicit as I was in calling their activity exploitation though. He does outline some other faults though. 1
ksfisher Posted September 30, 2014 Posted September 30, 2014 (edited) Sorry for not responding earlier. I got bored with the thread and had stopped reading it. It is what I had recalled from Talmage's Jesus the Christ. I guess relevant sections are cited here: http://theboard.byu.edu/questions/66691/ Talmage isn't as explicit as I was in calling their activity exploitation though. He does outline some other faults though. 12 ¶And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves, 13 And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves. Matthew 21 By calling the temple a "den of thieves" Christ seems to be saying that a lot more was going on in the temple than providing needed services. Edited September 30, 2014 by ksfisher 1
Raingirl Posted September 30, 2014 Posted September 30, 2014 No admittance to the presidents club....aka temple."President 's club"? What does that mean exactly?
Nofear Posted September 30, 2014 Posted September 30, 2014 12 ¶And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves, 13 And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves. Matthew 21 By calling the temple a "den of thieves" Christ seems to be saying that a lot more was going on in the temple than providing needed services. Agreed. "Den of thieves" isn't exactly supportive of honest trade.
will227457 Posted September 30, 2014 Posted September 30, 2014 "President 's club"? What does that mean exactly?It's a figure of speech, only 30-50% of active members hold temple recommends, this makes holding a temple recommend rare/not common/exclusive. Presidents club/executive lounge/Gold member....all metaphors relating to the exclusivity of temple attendance.
ksfisher Posted September 30, 2014 Posted September 30, 2014 It's a figure of speech, only 30-50% of active members hold temple recommends, this makes holding a temple recommend rare/not common/exclusive. Presidents club/executive lounge/Gold member....all metaphors relating to the exclusivity of temple attendance. But perhaps not a positive metaphor. The Savior and the church desire all to be worthy to enter the temple. No one who obeys the commandments is excluded.
will227457 Posted September 30, 2014 Posted September 30, 2014 But perhaps not a positive metaphor. The Savior and the church desire all to be worthy to enter the temple. No one who obeys the commandments is excluded.I agree no one who obeys is excluded, but we use the word exclude and exclusion is a form of punishment. Do we bring this exclusion on ourselves through disobedience? Yes we do so I guess not a punishment from our leaders or the church but a self imposed one. Like it or not temple attendance is limited and rare even among "active" members
phaedrus ut Posted September 30, 2014 Posted September 30, 2014 We don't know what church leaders are paid but as I showed in my previous posts that in some parts of the world where there are salary disclosures for charities there are quite a few highly compensated employees in the church. Would it be accurate to describe compensation for the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve that exceeded $250,000 per year as a living stipend? Phaedrus
Raingirl Posted September 30, 2014 Posted September 30, 2014 It's a figure of speech, only 30-50% of active members hold temple recommends, this makes holding a temple recommend rare/not common/exclusive. Presidents club/executive lounge/Gold member....all metaphors relating to the exclusivity of temple attendance.Anyone who wants to can hold a temple recommend. They just have to do the work, which really isn't very hard.I know far more people who hold recommends than don't. It's more common than "exclusive" in my neck of the woods.The only person who can get in the way of holding a recommend is yourself.
JAHS Posted October 1, 2014 Posted October 1, 2014 I read that the $1.2 million condominium at 40 N State is home to the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and is free from property taxes. The church should release where exactly our tithings and offerings are going to not avoid confusion. I want to know where my hard earned money is headed, since I'm poor and hoping it goes towards a good cause. It could go towards the $1.2 million condo for all I know. It seems like an apostle is a sweet gig if you get like $70,000 a year to cover your bases. That's double more than I make. Perhaps someone has already mentioned this but I consider everything I have has been given to me by God. The tithing I donate is NOT my hard earned money. It already belongs to God and I am simply returning 10% back to His Church to help move it forward. I trust the leaders He has called to manage the funds of the church and so I have no need to know where the money is going. I can obviously see it in the buildings, universities, missionary program, literature, etc. which all cost million of dollars to build and maintain. I just don't worry about it. 3
Rain Posted October 1, 2014 Posted October 1, 2014 We don't know what church leaders are paid but as I showed in my previous posts that in some parts of the world where there are salary disclosures for charities there are quite a few highly compensated employees in the church. Would it be accurate to describe compensation for the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve that exceeded $250,000 per year as a living stipend?PhaedrusYes, in my searches on the internet it would be accurate, though not common. Funny thing was that most of the sites mentioned that stipends are usually lower than salaries when doing the same work. Which means that the theory that their stipends are greater than the salaries linked to doesn't necessarily hold up in the traditional sense so their stipends could be much lower than some church employees. But either way, since the amounts are speculation at this point then no one could use any sort of scale as to whether it is stipend or not. 1
Guest Posted October 1, 2014 Posted October 1, 2014 (edited) I read that the Prophet and Quorum of the 12 get compensated to live in apartments in Salt Lake tax free. I know Mission Presidents get houses and salary to support however long they serve. Does our tithing go towards our leaders living comfortably while many of us struggle to put food on the table? What other positions in the church get paid? I feel no one should be compensated and paid and every position in the church should be volunteer for free.I have been paid with innumerable blessings. I am just glad I do not have to pat taxes on those blessings. Edited October 1, 2014 by Pa Pa
rockpond Posted October 1, 2014 Posted October 1, 2014 Perhaps someone has already mentioned this but I consider everything I have has been given to me by God. The tithing I donate is NOT my hard earned money. It already belongs to God and I am simply returning 10% back to His Church to help move it forward. I trust the leaders He has called to manage the funds of the church and so I have no need to know where the money is going. I can obviously see it in the buildings, universities, missionary program, literature, etc. which all cost million of dollars to build and maintain. I just don't worry about it.I am fully committed to the law of tithing. I am less committed to paying it to an organization that refuses to disclose how it is used.
JAHS Posted October 1, 2014 Posted October 1, 2014 I am fully committed to the law of tithing. I am less committed to paying it to an organization that refuses to disclose how it is used.I don't see how disclosure is going to make any difference to someone who pays it for the right reason or with the right attitude.Insisting on disclosure is an indication that one does not trust church leaders. If that were true I would not belong to that church.So don't pay the tithing and lose the blessings you would have otherwise received. 1
Robert F. Smith Posted October 1, 2014 Posted October 1, 2014 ................................................................. If God wanted to call me as an apostle tomorrow I could not do my calling for more then a couple of years before becoming homeless and starving.You mean like without purse or scrip? Dependent on free will offerings?
rockpond Posted October 1, 2014 Posted October 1, 2014 I don't see how disclosure is going to make any difference to someone who pays it for the right reason or with the right attitude.Insisting on disclosure is an indication that one does not trust church leaders. If that were true I would not belong to that church.So don't pay the tithing and lose the blessings you would have otherwise received.I do pay my tithes, for the right reason and with the right attitude. My payment of tithes has nothing to do with the Church's willingness to disclose its finances. Where I pay tithes, however, does depend on how I believe they are being used.
ksfisher Posted October 1, 2014 Posted October 1, 2014 Where I pay tithes, however, does depend on how I believe they are being used.What do you mean by this? I don't understand.
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