tonie Posted September 29, 2014 Posted September 29, 2014 A God and a potential God is not good enough for you. I am beginning to suspect it is impossible to satisfy a CFR from you.And a third witness joins me, another potential God. Will you demand still more and tempt your Gods? A second person has reiterated that the clause is legal language, at for the Donation slips used in the United States. A discussion on tech.lds.org suggest there are at least versions of the donation slip. zionssuburb has not posted that the Church would not move funds once recieved.
VideoGameJunkie Posted September 29, 2014 Author Posted September 29, 2014 I know the church is a perfect church but imperfect people have important roles and there could be misuse going on in the church and we wouldn't know about it because it's not a transparent church. Anyone who denies the possibility of corruption somewhere at some level of the church is fooling themselves.
rockpond Posted September 29, 2014 Posted September 29, 2014 No, because I suspect you may be one of those godless heathen satanist jello despisers. I'm not.
will227457 Posted September 29, 2014 Posted September 29, 2014 OP sounds like sour grapes to me. I think we should have a paid clergy with rules for admittance to the clergy. This will enable local leaders to dedicate their efforts full time to the church. If you want to be a bishop we should have educational and leadership requirements. We entrust people with NO skills at all to be "Judges in Israel".
will227457 Posted September 29, 2014 Posted September 29, 2014 Anyone who denies the possibility of corruption somewhere at some level of the church is fooling themselves.I don't deny that there may be corruption on some level, a lot of money passes through the church.....I also don't spend any time thinking about it....
The Nehor Posted September 29, 2014 Posted September 29, 2014 A second person has reiterated that the clause is legal language, at for the Donationzionssuburb has not posted that the Church would not move funds once recieved.Actually he or she did. Read the last sentence of their post.
tonie Posted September 29, 2014 Posted September 29, 2014 Actually he or she did. Read the last sentence of their post. Opps yeah I missed that part of the sentence. However, your appeals are not confirmation. Neither you nor zionssburb, has cited verifiable source to verify that the Church will ONLY use funds for the specified donation category.
Analytics Posted September 29, 2014 Posted September 29, 2014 (edited) It comes from the business profits of the Church, not your tithing. That is a distinction without a difference. According to Wikipedia, When the LDS Church takes in more donations than it pays out in period expenses, it uses the surplus to build a reserve for capital expenditures and for future years when period expenses may exceed donations. The church invests its reserve to maintain the principal and generate a reasonable return and directs its investments into income-producing assets that may help it in its mission, such as farmland- and communication-related companies.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finances_of_The_Church_of_Jesus_Christ_of_Latter-day_Saints According to the latest church audit report, "The Church follows the practices taught to its members of living within a budget, avoiding debt, and saving against a time of need." https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2014/04/church-auditing-department-report-2013?lang=eng So if the Church really is "saving against a time of need," what is the most likely way it will invest the positive cash flow? The stock market? Corporate bonds? Or will it issue stocks and/or bonds to Deseret Management Corp (DMC) in order to grow its portfolio of farms, malls, radio stations, etc.? Using some made-up numbers to illustrate the point, say that the Church has 5 million active members, which corresponds to 1 million active families. Assume that the average active family pays $1,000 in tithing a year. That would mean the church collects $1 Billion a year in tithing. If it goes by the basic guideline of saving 10% of your income for a rainy day, the Church would only spend $900 million on its core "tithing-funded operations," with the remaining $100 million annually being funneled into DMC to grow its for-profit corporate empire. So if somebody is uncomfortable with tithing money be used to provide comfortable "stipends" to GA's, are they supposed to be okay with for-profit businesses paying these stipends, knowing that a portion of his tithing is being used to capitalize the for-profit businesses? Edited September 29, 2014 by Analytics 1
The Nehor Posted September 29, 2014 Posted September 29, 2014 Opps yeah I missed that part of the sentence. However, your appeals are not confirmation. Neither you nor zionssburb, has cited verifiable source to verify that the Church will ONLY use funds for the specified donation category.Well then, I suppose we should just assume they are ignoring the categories as they wish. I mean, we can ignore two people who know why it was changed and just assume the Church is tricking its members.
rockpond Posted September 29, 2014 Posted September 29, 2014 Well then, I suppose we should just assume they are ignoring the categories as they wish. I mean, we can ignore two people who know why it was changed and just assume the Church is tricking its members.Sorry but your suppositions as to why the Church added that statement to the tithing slip are not the same as "knowing" why they did it. Nor do you know what the Church does with the funds. And you have shown a repeated inclination to ignore the rules of the board (which you agreed to upon signing up here) which demonstratea a lack of integrity. So, I have little reason to trust you or your assumptions.
The Nehor Posted September 29, 2014 Posted September 29, 2014 Sorry but your suppositions as to why the Church added that statement to the tithing slip are not the same as "knowing" why they did it. Nor do you know what the Church does with the funds.They were not suppositions. I was told by people who know why they put it there and by people who know what the church does with the funds. And you have shown a repeated inclination to ignore the rules of the board (which you agreed to upon signing up here) which demonstrated a lack of integrity. So, I have little reason to trust you or your assumptions.Yes, I am quite the moral monster for not honoring your disingenuous CFRs. And you are quite the apostate bent on every hypothetical wrongdoing you can construct done by the church. We all have our crosses to bear. Yours is just more likely to drag you down to hell. Have a nice trip. Nehor you are required to take a request for documentation seriously but now you are leaving the thread anyway. 1
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted September 29, 2014 Posted September 29, 2014 And you are quite the apostate bent on every hypothetical wrongdoing you can construct done by the church.I know this has the potential to get people banned, but I think in this case it needs to be said of our friend rockpond. He really is no friend of the church.
omni Posted September 29, 2014 Posted September 29, 2014 I know this has the potential to get people banned, but I think in this case it needs to be said of our friend rockpond. He really is no friend of the church.Good thing only God can make those judgements. If it were left up to members of this board heaven would be an awfully lonely place. 1
Buzzard Posted September 29, 2014 Posted September 29, 2014 I know the church is a perfect church but imperfect people have important roles and there could be misuse going on in the church and we wouldn't know about it because it's not a transparent church. Anyone who denies the possibility of corruption somewhere at some level of the church is fooling themselves.And that is why the church has an extensive audit program. Having been through one, I can tell you it's pretty complete. You couldn't get away with too much money before the nice folks from Salt Lake would know about it. 1
DJBrown Posted September 29, 2014 Posted September 29, 2014 I'm 100% okay with some positions in our Church getting remuneration for their needs, and I'm also okay with not disclosing exactly how we spend everything, for the reasons already stated, but I've always found this statement to be an odd one...Where did business interests of our Church ever originate from, if not from money gained via our tithing? It could be said that the law of tithing in D&C 119 specifically ascribes it to be used "for the priesthood, and for the debts of the Presidency," though that may mean different things at different times (e.g., times when the Church really was in debt). But I'm okay equating that to mean "expenses of the First Presidency (and full-time Apostles and workers and RS Presidency, etc.)." No need to pretend our tithing doesn't cover that. The Church has paid or reimbursed various people for various positions since the beginning, including during times when there were no "business profits" at all. Imagine how many people have left assets to the church in their wills. Imagine how much has accumulated over the course of 180 years. For example, the jet used by the First Presidency came from John Huntsman who donated that plane over and above tithing. I think this type of thing is quite common. So the brethren do not have stipends that come from tithing. 1
Grudunza Posted September 29, 2014 Posted September 29, 2014 Imagine how many people have left assets to the church in their wills. Imagine how much has accumulated over the course of 180 years. For example, the jet used by the First Presidency came from John Huntsman who donated that plane over and above tithing. I think this type of thing is quite common. So the brethren do not have stipends that come from tithing.Can you really say that with certainty? That donated offerings beyond tithing are specifically ear-marked for GA stipends?? Frankly, I'd rather GA stipends just come from tithing, as D&C 119 seems to indicate they should. But inasmuch as our Church has earnings, if income goes into a general pool that includes tithing, then what's the difference? My point is that some people keep claiming that GA stipends do not come from tithing, as if we need to deflect from that idea, and I see no reason why we need to say that (So what if they do? Our scriptures say they should!), but especially when there can be no surety of that specific expense not coming from the pool of money that includes our tithing, or that began with our tithing (in the case of businesses founded or acquired by the Church).
mnn727 Posted September 30, 2014 Posted September 30, 2014 I searched LDS.org. Wasn't there. Is the Church an organization of great wealth as some have maintained?”The Church has substantial assets necessary to its program. These assets are primarily in buildings. They are in ward and stake meeting facilities, in schools and seminaries, colleges and institutes. They are in welfare projects. These assets are in mission homes and missionary training centers, temples and family history archives, as well as related activities and facilities all concerned directly with our mission. But it should be recognized that all of these are money-consuming assets and not money-producing assets. They are expensive to build and maintain. They do not produce financial wealth, but they do much to strengthen and build Latter-day Saints.We have a few income-producing business properties, but the return from these would keep the Church going only for a very brief time. Tithing is the Lord’s law of finance. There is no other financial law like it. It is a principle given with a promise, spoken by the Lord Himself for the blessing of His children.I repeat what I have said before—when all is said and done, the only real wealth of the Church is in the faith of its people. From: https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1991/04/the-state-of-the-church?lang=eng&query=money+buildings See also:https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1984/04/the-miracle-made-possible-by-faith?lang=eng&query=money+buildings https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1995/10/of-missions-temples-and-stewardship?lang=eng&query=money+buildings 1
VideoGameJunkie Posted September 30, 2014 Author Posted September 30, 2014 Remember in D & C when Joseph Smith tells his people to build him and his family a house I'm surprised no one objected or found it odd.
Calm Posted September 30, 2014 Posted September 30, 2014 (edited) Attackers of the church bring up how the Mormon church is a huge corporation like it's a bad thing.Don't you think you've answered your own question right there? I am wondering if you are bored lately. You have been starting a lot of threads like this…. Edited September 30, 2014 by calmoriah
VideoGameJunkie Posted September 30, 2014 Author Posted September 30, 2014 Cal I'm very bored. With no girl comes time to think and come up with fun threads that will get debate and discussion going. As scarface would say, you need people like me.
Calm Posted September 30, 2014 Posted September 30, 2014 I find threads that are thoughtful discussion more interesting than the throw the mud on the wall and see what sticks kind. 2
rockpond Posted September 30, 2014 Posted September 30, 2014 I know this has the potential to get people banned, but I think in this case it needs to be said of our friend rockpond. He really is no friend of the church.You don't know me. And you are incorrect. I am very much a friend of the church.
rockpond Posted September 30, 2014 Posted September 30, 2014 (edited) Deleted. Double post. Edited September 30, 2014 by rockpond
VideoGameJunkie Posted September 30, 2014 Author Posted September 30, 2014 The church is very adamant about paying tithing. There's punishment for not being a full tithe payer. Tithing is one of the reasons my dad doesn't want to join the church. He doesn't wanna be a part of a religion where he's required to pay money to be a member.
rockpond Posted September 30, 2014 Posted September 30, 2014 Is the Church an organization of great wealth as some have maintained?”The Church has substantial assets necessary to its program. These assets are primarily in buildings. They are in ward and stake meeting facilities, in schools and seminaries, colleges and institutes. They are in welfare projects. These assets are in mission homes and missionary training centers, temples and family history archives, as well as related activities and facilities all concerned directly with our mission. But it should be recognized that all of these are money-consuming assets and not money-producing assets. They are expensive to build and maintain. They do not produce financial wealth, but they do much to strengthen and build Latter-day Saints.We have a few income-producing business properties, but the return from these would keep the Church going only for a very brief time. Tithing is the Lord’s law of finance. There is no other financial law like it. It is a principle given with a promise, spoken by the Lord Himself for the blessing of His children.I repeat what I have said before—when all is said and done, the only real wealth of the Church is in the faith of its people. From: https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1991/04/the-state-of-the-church?lang=eng&query=money+buildings See also:https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1984/04/the-miracle-made-possible-by-faith?lang=eng&query=money+buildings https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1995/10/of-missions-temples-and-stewardship?lang=eng&query=money+buildingsThank you.
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