rockpond Posted October 1, 2014 Posted October 1, 2014 What do you mean by this? I don't understand.If I don't feel that my tithes are being used in a manner consistent with the Lord's desires, I will donate them to a different organization.
Raingirl Posted October 1, 2014 Posted October 1, 2014 If I don't feel that my tithes are being used in a manner consistent with the Lord's desires, I will donate them to a different organization.That is not tithe paying. That's donating to charity.But you should be smart enough to know that. 1
rockpond Posted October 1, 2014 Posted October 1, 2014 That is not tithe paying. That's donating to charity.But you should be smart enough to know that.There's nothing in the scriptures saying that my tithes need to go to 50 East North Temple.
Mystery Meat Posted October 1, 2014 Posted October 1, 2014 (edited) There's nothing in the scriptures saying that my tithes need to go to 50 East North Temple. Far be it for me to tell you that you are not paying tithes, but if it were me I would check with my bishop/stake president to make sure I could go to the temple in good faith. That's just me. The more I think about this, the more I think you do actually. Who did Abraham pay tithes to? A key holder. We pay tithes to a bishop; one who holds keys. Otherwise the money given is donation and not a tithe, and I think there is a difference. Edited October 1, 2014 by lvjd66
Raingirl Posted October 1, 2014 Posted October 1, 2014 There's nothing in the scriptures saying that my tithes need to go to 50 East North Temple.Some people will always find a way to re-interpret things to their own liking/gain.
ksfisher Posted October 1, 2014 Posted October 1, 2014 There's nothing in the scriptures saying that my tithes need to go to 50 East North Temple.There's also nothing in the scriptures that says you need a temple recommend to get in the temple, or that Thomas Monson is the current president of the church, or anything about home or visiting teaching.
rockpond Posted October 1, 2014 Posted October 1, 2014 Far be it for me to tell you that you are not paying tithes, but if it were me I would check with my bishop/stake president to make sure I could go to the temple in good faith. That's just me.The more I think about this, the more I think you do actually. Who did Abraham pay tithes to? A key holder. We pay tithes to a bishop; one who holds keys. Otherwise the money given is donation and not a tithe, and I think there is a difference.We actually don't pay tithes to our Bishop anymore. Those days are long gone. Tithing funds are sent directly to SLC as quickly as possible.
rockpond Posted October 1, 2014 Posted October 1, 2014 Some people will always find a way to re-interpret things to their own liking/gain.No doubt. Although, as a full tithe payer, I haven't really re-interpreted anything to my "own gain".
rockpond Posted October 1, 2014 Posted October 1, 2014 There's also nothing in the scriptures that says you need a temple recommend to get in the temple, or that Thomas Monson is the current president of the church, or anything about home or visiting teaching.True. We have to rely on the Spirit to guide us for many things. And according to members on this board, it doesn't matter what happens to my tithes after I donate them. So it shouldn't matter where they are donated.
JAHS Posted October 1, 2014 Posted October 1, 2014 True. We have to rely on the Spirit to guide us for many things.And according to members on this board, it doesn't matter what happens to my tithes after I donate them. So it shouldn't matter where they are donated.The scripture says:"Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, " "Mine house" is God's kingdom on earth, and more specifically into His storehouse. All LDS leaders and scholars would agree that this refers exclusively to God's Church on the earth. 2
JLHPROF Posted October 1, 2014 Posted October 1, 2014 True. We have to rely on the Spirit to guide us for many things.And according to members on this board, it doesn't matter what happens to my tithes after I donate them. So it shouldn't matter where they are donated. You know the scriptures better than this.You know the difference between alms (charitable donatations) and tithes (surplus offerings).And you also know that the scriptures are clear that tithes must be offered to priesthood leadership, going all the way back to Abraham and Melchezidek. Giving money to charity does NOT fulfill the commandment of tithing. 3
rockpond Posted October 1, 2014 Posted October 1, 2014 The scripture says:"Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, " "Mine house" is God's kingdom on earth, and more specifically into His storehouse. All LDS leaders and scholars would agree that this refers exclusively to God's Church on the earth. I agree that tithing funds should go to God's kingdom on earth. You and I may differ in exactly how to define that.
rockpond Posted October 1, 2014 Posted October 1, 2014 You know the scriptures better than this.You know the difference between alms (charitable donatations) and tithes (surplus offerings).And you also know that the scriptures are clear that tithes must be offered to priesthood leadership, going all the way back to Abraham and Melchezidek. Giving money to charity does NOT fulfill the commandment of tithing. As I read the scriptures, I believe that tithes and offerings need to go to further God's work. Many on these boards have said that it doesn't matter what happens with our tithes after we have paid them. Are you saying that all that matters is that we make sure they get handed over to a priesthood leader? Nothing beyond that?
JLHPROF Posted October 1, 2014 Posted October 1, 2014 (edited) As I read the scriptures, I believe that tithes and offerings need to go to further God's work. Many on these boards have said that it doesn't matter what happens with our tithes after we have paid them. Are you saying that all that matters is that we make sure they get handed over to a priesthood leader? Nothing beyond that? Yes. To God's representative. That is the scriptural teaching where tithes are concerned.And it is none of our business what they do with them after - that is between God and his representatives. You are confusing tithes and alms. Charity however (alms) can be given whereever your conscience dictates. Edited October 1, 2014 by JLHPROF 2
rockpond Posted October 1, 2014 Posted October 1, 2014 Yes. To God's representative. That is the scriptural teaching where tithes are concerned.And it is none of our business what they do with them after - that is between God and his representatives. You are confusing tithes and alms. Charity however (alms) can be given whereever your conscience dictates. Sorry, I can't get behind the idea that it doesn't matter what happens with those tithes & offerings. I think there is importance in how they are used.
JLHPROF Posted October 1, 2014 Posted October 1, 2014 (edited) Sorry, I can't get behind the idea that it doesn't matter what happens with those tithes & offerings. I think there is importance in how they are used. Oh, there absolutely is importance. I never said it didn't matter. What I said is, it's not for us to judge. Only God can determine if they are being used incorrectly.We have no right to withhold tithes because we don't like what the Church might use them for. That's not our stewardship. Edited October 1, 2014 by JLHPROF 2
sdc999 Posted October 1, 2014 Posted October 1, 2014 Oh, there absolutely is importance. I never said it didn't matter. What I said is, it's not for us to judge. Only God can determine if they are being used incorrectly.We have no right to withhold tithes because we don't like what the Church might use them for. That's not our stewardship.That's a dangerous situation to put any organization in. God has not put us here to be ignorant in many things. We judge every day. Righteous judgement is okay. Windows are in not put in doors at the church to wait on God to judge someone's actions at a later date, even though they were determined to be a worthy priesthood holder at some point to be in the room. Yes, He will have His time to judge but we are here to be diligent now. If it's only for God to judge, then why the internal audit? 1
will227457 Posted October 1, 2014 Posted October 1, 2014 Are we as members going to get involved in the minutia of how our tithing is spent? would you like every penny of every dollar you send in to be accounted for to you? What if you didn't like were it went? or thought it was frivolous? The church does need to be held accountable for the spending of tithing, and they have internal audits to do just that. As members of a faith based organization we should have...faith.....an organization as large as the church cannot account for every penny to every individual. That is an unreal expectation. When I look at the simple list of things that our tithing goes to it seems pretty reasonable to me: Constructing temples, chapels, and other buildings.Providing operating funds for the Church.Funding the missionary program (This does not include individual missionary expenses.)Preparing materials used in Church classes and organizations.Temple work, family history, and many other important Church functions.Education. When a big embezzlement scandal breaks let me know otherwise I have better things to do
rockpond Posted October 1, 2014 Posted October 1, 2014 Are we as members going to get involved in the minutia of how our tithing is spent? would you like every penny of every dollar you send in to be accounted for to you? What if you didn't like were it went? or thought it was frivolous? The church does need to be held accountable for the spending of tithing, and they have internal audits to do just that. As members of a faith based organization we should have...faith.....an organization as large as the church cannot account for every penny to every individual. That is an unreal expectation. When I look at the simple list of things that our tithing goes to it seems pretty reasonable to me: Constructing temples, chapels, and other buildings.Providing operating funds for the Church.Funding the missionary program (This does not include individual missionary expenses.)Preparing materials used in Church classes and organizations.Temple work, family history, and many other important Church functions.Education. When a big embezzlement scandal breaks let me know otherwise I have better things to do Audits don't tell us how the money is spent. And I'm not worried about embezzlement. Plenty of faith based organizations publish their financials.
JLHPROF Posted October 1, 2014 Posted October 1, 2014 (edited) That's a dangerous situation to put any organization in. God has not put us here to be ignorant in many things. We judge every day. Righteous judgement is okay. Windows are in not put in doors at the church to wait on God to judge someone's actions at a later date, even though they were determined to be a worthy priesthood holder at some point to be in the room. Yes, He will have His time to judge but we are here to be diligent now. If it's only for God to judge, then why the internal audit? The internal audit are our leaders holding themselves accountable. Last I checked nobody asked me to audit the Church's use of tithing funds. It's not our business. Tithing is a lesser law related to consecration. It is designed to teach us to turn our possessions over to the Lord (or his representatives) and to have faith that our needs will be met. It is a form of sacrifice. It is NOT our place to question the use of funds. When we live the law of consecration we will sign 100% of our belongings over to the Lords representatives. And we will have no more say in how they are used either. Charitable donations (alms/fast offerings etc) are designed to help the poor and needy, and we have some right to ensure our offerings end up where they are helping others. Mixing these two laws ends up with us overstepping our stewardship and questioning where we ought not. Edited October 1, 2014 by JLHPROF
rockpond Posted October 1, 2014 Posted October 1, 2014 Oh, there absolutely is importance. I never said it didn't matter. What I said is, it's not for us to judge. Only God can determine if they are being used incorrectly.We have no right to withhold tithes because we don't like what the Church might use them for. That's not our stewardship. I agree that we cannot withhold our tithes. And it is the stewardship of others to put those tithes to use according to the Lord's will. But I believe it's my stewardship to be responsible in the payment of my tithes and offerings. I see that as one of the important messages of Malachi 3. And if the church is going to continue in not sharing how they use those funds, then I may need to be judicious in where I send them. Is there any point at which you would cease to donate to the Church? Is there anything they could do or not do with the money that would make you decide that it was unwise to continue to send your tithes to them? 1
JLHPROF Posted October 1, 2014 Posted October 1, 2014 Is there any point at which you would cease to donate to the Church? Is there anything they could do or not do with the money that would make you decide that it was unwise to continue to send your tithes to them? Now this is both a fair and a thoughful question.For instance, if I found out the Church was funding abortion clinics (yes, I went to the most ridiculous I could think of) with tithing funds would I continue to pay.I honestly don't know and would have to fast and pray. 1. On the one hand I could NEVER bring myself to aid abortion clinics financially.2. On the other hand God has commanded us to pay tithing to our priesthood leaders and will hold them accountable for use of funds. I suppose I would need personal revelation from the Lord absolving me of my accountability to the commandment./covenant of tithing. In that extreme case, I suppose I would withhold tithing.
rockpond Posted October 1, 2014 Posted October 1, 2014 Now this is both a fair and a thoughful question.For instance, if I found out the Church was funding abortion clinics (yes, I went to the most ridiculous I could think of) with tithing funds would I continue to pay.I honestly don't know and would have to fast and pray. 1. On the one hand I could NEVER bring myself to aid abortion clinics financially.2. On the other hand God has commanded us to pay tithing to our priesthood leaders and will hold them accountable for use of funds. I suppose I would need personal revelation from the Lord absolving me of my accountability to the commandment./covenant of tithing. In that extreme case, I suppose I would withhold tithing. A fair response. Thank you. For the record, I do pay tithes to the church. But things that have been done over the past few years have raised questions for me about how funds are being appropriated. I am not accusing them of wrongdoing. But in praying about it, I have felt quite comfortable at times sending some of my tithing funds to other organizations that I believe do the work of God's kingdom on earth (you disagree that that constitutes payment of tithes and I respect your conclusion). The Brethren have chosen to not share how finances are used - while I believe they are incorrect in such a decision, I sustain them. But, the lack of disclosure does not help allay concerns about use of church funds. While they are great men, called of God, they are not perfect and I believe financial disclosure would be healthy for all.
JAHS Posted October 1, 2014 Posted October 1, 2014 A fair response. Thank you. For the record, I do pay tithes to the church. But things that have been done over the past few years have raised questions for me about how funds are being appropriated. I am not accusing them of wrongdoing. But in praying about it, I have felt quite comfortable at times sending some of my tithing funds to other organizations that I believe do the work of God's kingdom on earth (you disagree that that constitutes payment of tithes and I respect your conclusion). The Brethren have chosen to not share how finances are used - while I believe they are incorrect in such a decision, I sustain them. But, the lack of disclosure does not help allay concerns about use of church funds. While they are great men, called of God, they are not perfect and I believe financial disclosure would be healthy for all.Such disclosure would set the church up for even more criticism from those who don't understand the entire system or how decisions are made as to how it is spent. It would bring even more ridicule against the church from those who would want to micro-manage and nit pick at certain items without taking into consideration the whole picture. I could never begin to understand it all as well as those who have greater experience at it than I do, or who have been set apart by God to handle such things and who can see what is needed for the future (like a prophet).
rockpond Posted October 1, 2014 Posted October 1, 2014 Such disclosure would set the church up for even more criticism from those who don't understand the entire system or how decisions are made as to how it is spent. It would bring even more ridicule against the church from those who would want to micro-manage and nit pick at certain items without taking into consideration the whole picture. I could never begin to understand it all as well as those who have greater experience at it than I do, or who have been set apart by God to handle such things and who can see what is needed for the future (like a prophet). The church is already criticized so I don't see that as something to worry about. Plenty of churches and charitable organizations disclose their financials including our church until 1959. Plenty of people are capable of understanding financial statements.
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