Who In The Church Are Paid?

[VideoGameJunkie]

I read that the Prophet and Quorum of the 12 get compensated to live in apartments in Salt Lake tax free. I know Mission Presidents get houses and salary to support however long they serve. Does our tithing go towards our leaders living comfortably while many of us struggle to put food on the table? What other positions in the church get paid? I feel no one should be compensated and paid and every position in the church should be volunteer for free.

[The Nehor]

The First Presidency, the Quorum of the Twelve, and the Seventies all have available a stipend to support themselves while they do the work.

 

These stipends come from profits from business interests owned by the Church and not directly from tithing.

 

The ideal of giving money to no one sounds good but it would require us to restrict General Church callings only to the wealthy who could support themselves in perpetuity for decades without any income. These callings are more then a full-time job and unlike Paul and other early apostles you cannot carry the tools of your livelihood with you as they used to and support yourself as you go like they did.

 

If God wanted to call me as an apostle tomorrow I could not do my calling for more then a couple of years before becoming homeless and starving.

[VideoGameJunkie]

I read that the $1.2 million condominium at 40 N State is home to the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and is free from property taxes. The church should release where exactly our tithings and offerings are going to not avoid confusion. I want to know where my hard earned money is headed, since I'm poor and hoping it goes towards a good cause. It could go towards the $1.2 million condo for all I know. It seems like an apostle is a sweet gig if you get like $70,000 a year to cover your bases. That's double more than I make.

[VideoGameJunkie]

Should the apostles have regular jobs too like Bishops and Stake Presidents? Should they really be grandfathered or tenured into their positions until death or should they be released like a BIshop is released every 5 or 6 years.

[The Nehor]

I read that the $1.2 million condominium at 40 N State is home to the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and is free from property taxes. The church should release where exactly our tithings and offerings are going to not avoid confusion. I want to know where my hard earned money is headed, since I'm poor and hoping it goes towards a good cause. It could go towards the $1.2 million condo for all I know. It seems like an apostle is a sweet gig if you get like $70,000 a year to cover your bases. That's double more than I make.

 

It comes from the business profits of the Church, not your tithing.

 

I have no idea if it is $70,000 but that is not a lot when you are travelling almost non-stop all the time and have to dress your best all the time. My salary is in the same ballpark as that stipend and I don't work nearly as hard as they do. I don't envy them.

 

Should the apostles have regular jobs too like Bishops and Stake Presidents? Should they really be grandfathered or tenured into their positions until death or should they be released like a BIshop is released every 5 or 6 years.

 

Apostles could not hold down a regular 9-5 job and do their calling in the evenings. It is hard to pop off to the Philippines for a few days and then go visit Mexico and Chile in a week and still put in 40 hours. Their office jobs usually take at least 40 hours a week not counting travelling to be out amongst the saints.

 

As to being released, that's God's call. He can change it if He wants to but as it stands it is for life.

 

You sound like you are jealous. Don't be. They are not glutting themselves on the labor of the saints. They are underpaid for the work put in by every economic metric I know of. I wouldn't take a regular job that required the effort they have to put into their calling for anything less then half a million a year and if I got such a job I would do it for a few years and retire before I burned out.

[VideoGameJunkie]

But how do you feel about the church opening up where our tithing and offering goes specifically? I'd love to know what part of building up the kingdom of God that I helped and transparency would help with funds so we know we're not getting short changed. I mean, the church is VERY rich like a huge corporation. They even have money changers in the temple when you rent clothes to use in endowment sessions or for sealings. I've rented temple clothes and exchanged money and gotten change in the temple. I thought that's who Jesus drove out of the temple.

[strappinglad]

VGJ is so right. I think every person who does anything for the Church should do it for free. That includes the window washers and secretaries in the Church Office building and the carpenters and plumbers and electricians who build the buildings, especially the carpenters because Jesus was a carpenter and He never got paid for anything he did. No retired person should expect any compensation for the 40+hour weeks that are required in GA positions. Oh, and they should cover all their travel costs, because a bishop doesn't get mileage paid when he visits a sick member 2 miles from his home.

Money changers = temple clothing rental collectors . So true

( do I really need an emoticon ? really ? )

Edited September 29, 2014 by strappinglad

[VideoGameJunkie]

Gee, I think someone is mocking me. I never said anything about plumbers or electricians, I was talking about leaders. The whole basis of the church is volunteer servitude. Not tenured pay jobs.

[The Nehor]

But how do you feel about the church opening up where our tithing and offering goes specifically? I'd love to know what part of building up the kingdom of God that I helped and transparency would help with funds so we know we're not getting short changed. I mean, the church is VERY rich like a huge corporation. They even have money changers in the temple when you rent clothes to use in endowment sessions or for sealings. I've rented temple clothes and exchanged money and gotten change in the temple. I thought that's who Jesus drove out of the temple.

 

Money goes into big piles. You would not know where your tithing goes specifically even if they released the financials. It is numbers in a bank.

 

The Church is rich by some standards but it is perpetually operating at a loss and needs donations. Chapels, temples, family history centers, employment centers, etc do not generate a profit. The Church is like a corporation operating a bunch of stores that collect no money. If there was no tithing the Church would go bankrupt in a year or two unless they shut down almost everything. The Church's few "for profit" ventures could not support the Church as a whole. The Church is not a self-sufficient entity asking us for donations that could operate just fine without them.

 

The money changers in the temple were people changing currency and selling sacrificial animals. It was all stuff they could and should have been doing outside. Picture people hawking their wares and haggling like they were in a street market in the temple drowning out quiet prayers and you have what the Savior was condemning. Charging a small fee for laundering clothing quietly in one section of the temple is not comparable in any way, shape, or form and is not disruptive of temple worship.

[VideoGameJunkie]

Thanks for clarifying. For the sometimes crazy and sarcastic image you display here, you seem very faithful and well informed with the church Nehor.

Edited September 29, 2014 by VideoGameJunkie

[Storm Rider]

But how do you feel about the church opening up where our tithing and offering goes specifically? I'd love to know what part of building up the kingdom of God that I helped and transparency would help with funds so we know we're not getting short changed. I mean, the church is VERY rich like a huge corporation. They even have money changers in the temple when you rent clothes to use in endowment sessions or for sealings. I've rented temple clothes and exchanged money and gotten change in the temple. I thought that's who Jesus drove out of the temple.

 

Interesting comments coming from such a mild mannered fellow.  First, money changers in the temple.  Those money changers who rent clothes to you are only used in large temples.  Small temples do not rent clothing to members and all must bring their own white clothing and robes.  Why don't you own your own temple clothing instead of being one of those that frequents and supports those money changers?  

 

Now that you mention it; what is a money changer and how does it relate to a service such as renting temple clothing?  

 

Who is worse those filthy money changers or those filthy people who frequent their business?

[Storm Rider]

Gee, I think someone is mocking me. I never said anything about plumbers or electricians, I was talking about leaders. The whole basis of the church is volunteer servitude. Not tenured pay jobs.

 

Mock you; oh please, tell me this bit of silliness should not be mocked?  How about do a search of all the threads that have discussed this topic.  In fact, do you ever do a search on any topic?  Try it; it works very well and you will find a plethora of information.

 

No, the church is not about volunteer "servitude", or even slavery.  It is about service.  The people that are paid are those people who are not able to work full-time due to the commitment they give to the Church.  

[rpn]

 

I read that the $1.2 million condominium at 40 N State is home to the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and is free from property taxes. The church should release where exactly our tithings and offerings are going to not avoid confusion. I want to know where my hard earned money is headed, since I'm poor and hoping it goes towards a good cause. It could go towards the $1.2 million condo for all I know. It seems like an apostle is a sweet gig if you get like $70,000 a year to cover your bases. That's double more than I make.

Not your tithing.  Whatever pocket of funds it comes from, the Lord's money.   I find your post to be the most candid though of any post I've read on the issue of financial accountability.  Thank you.  You make it clear that you are jealous and want what you think they have, or you want them to be punished for having more than you.   (I suspect on any of many days, all of them would gladly trade places with you for your live, if they could.   It has to be very hard to be away from your family 26+ weekends a year, dealing with not just practical things, but also working with people, ever subject to criticism (even about where you fly fish or how often as occurred several years ago whens some blog poster recounted a couple at some resort).   I suspect that is the major reason for much of the discussion on this point.

 

It is true that beginning around 20-30 years ago, when prophets were called, they moved into an apartment in Hotel Utah (don't know where it is now).   Prophets had lived in Hotel Utah before, but usually it was for some specific health or other need.   The change was because of what was perceived as increased need for security for church leaders.    My guess is that some of the value of any apartment is the accoutrements associated with the security.  

 

It is those who serve church members full time that are able to get a stipend.   Not the Seventies that are Area Seventies.   And not everyone needs the stipends either.   Mission Presidents, Temple Presidents (though probably not now since they are mostly being called from their own areas). 

[Boanerges]

Just to throw out here, I know an Area Authority. He has a church issued card that he is supposed to use for travel or other incidental expenses. Of course, unlike the first and second quorums and the apostles, he also has a full time job and is not otherwise compensated from the church.

[sdc999]

Money goes into big piles. You would not know where your tithing goes specifically even if they released the financials. It is numbers in a bank.

 

 

Specifically? No.   I run a business and in my chart of accounts I have many line items.  But a simple balance statement does let me know where my money goes, not specifically, but generally.    Salary, debt service, utilities, donations...... and so forth.   This balance sheet is 1 page and sometimes two at the most.  

So I hope you have just a specific job at your business because anyone who is really in control of the success of the business would not refer to the $$ as just "numbers in a bank".

A simple church balance statement would do one of two things.  1: Members would say, "wow, look at how much our church donates to worthy causes." or 2. "wow, after taking care of everything it takes to run the church,salary, "stipends", overhead, we only dontate a very small percentage to charity causes." 

Will the church get beaten up over a financial statement by non or ex members and even some current members?  Sure.  Most every entity that releases their financials will have critics.  But those that are confidant in their endeavors will not waver from their trek. Should the church worry about their critics?  No, they are just people with an opinion just as those are just 'numbers in a bank.'

[Grudunza]

I'm 100% okay with some positions in our Church getting remuneration for their needs, and I'm also okay with not disclosing exactly how we spend everything, for the reasons already stated, but I've always found this statement to be an odd one...

It comes from the business profits of the Church, not your tithing.

Where did business interests of our Church ever originate from, if not from money gained via our tithing? It could be said that the law of tithing in D&C 119 specifically ascribes it to be used "for the priesthood, and for the debts of the Presidency," though that may mean different things at different times (e.g., times when the Church really was in debt). But I'm okay equating that to mean "expenses of the First Presidency (and full-time Apostles and workers and RS Presidency, etc.)." No need to pretend our tithing doesn't cover that. The Church has paid or reimbursed various people for various positions since the beginning, including during times when there were no "business profits" at all.

[JLHPROF]

I have absolutely no interest in knowing how my tithing is spent. God asked me to give 10% so I do. The second it leaves my hand I have done as God asks and it is none of my business.

If the Church leaders are misusing it they will answer to God, my conscience is clean. Even if I KNEW they were spending it on themselves I would still keep paying because it's what God has asked and I receive his blessing. Let the Church leaders answer to God for their stewardship, just as I do.

[Antoni]

Also we need to remember the GA's and Apostle's are called - this isn't something they apply for or seek to create a career path to get to.

[mnn727]

But how do you feel about the church opening up where our tithing and offering goes specifically? I'd love to know what part of building up the kingdom of God that I helped and transparency would help with funds so we know we're not getting short changed. I mean, the church is VERY rich like a huge corporation. They even have money changers in the temple when you rent clothes to use in endowment sessions or for sealings. I've rented temple clothes and exchanged money and gotten change in the temple. I thought that's who Jesus drove out of the temple.

Church buildings and Temples, (and institute and seminary) are not money making ventures, they are money using ventures.

 

Frankly I could care less where my donations go, as once I donate it, I have done my duty to as God requires. If they want to use it on booze and hookers, that's on them. I've done what God requires of me.

The fact of the matter is I trust that they are using it for good, as a former Ward Clerk I've been through Church Audits and know there is a watchful eye on where money is being spent. I  know that what tithing is allowed to be spent on is laid out clearly and there are auditors watching it carefully.

[mnn727]

 They even have money changers in the temple when you rent clothes to use in endowment sessions or for sealings. I've rented temple clothes and exchanged money and gotten change in the temple. I thought that's who Jesus drove out of the temple.

Gee, you try purchasing white clothing, and have it laundered and pressed for what you pay to rent it for it in the Temple.

<<shakes head>>

[Nofear]

But how do you feel about the church opening up where our tithing and offering goes specifically? I'd love to know what part of building up the kingdom of God that I helped and transparency would help with funds so we know we're not getting short changed. I mean, the church is VERY rich like a huge corporation. They even have money changers in the temple when you rent clothes to use in endowment sessions or for sealings. I've rented temple clothes and exchanged money and gotten change in the temple. I thought that's who Jesus drove out of the temple.

 

The money changers were driven from the temple because they were exploiting temple attendees for profit. Need a change in currency (yes, most did), here we'll change it for you for a far-from-trivial markup. There is a huge difference between operating costs and exploiting worship needs for profit.

[The Nehor]

I'm 100% okay with some positions in our Church getting remuneration for their needs, and I'm also okay with not disclosing exactly how we spend everything, for the reasons already stated, but I've always found this statement to be an odd one...

Where did business interests of our Church ever originate from, if not from money gained via our tithing? It could be said that the law of tithing in D&C 119 specifically ascribes it to be used "for the priesthood, and for the debts of the Presidency," though that may mean different things at different times (e.g., times when the Church really was in debt). But I'm okay equating that to mean "expenses of the First Presidency (and full-time Apostles and workers and RS Presidency, etc.)." No need to pretend our tithing doesn't cover that. The Church has paid or reimbursed various people for various positions since the beginning, including during times when there were no "business profits" at all.

For the most part the business interests of the Church come from the pioneer days of the church. So while some comes from tithing there would be bits of consecration and even church-owned businesses set up through the sale of stock, non-tithing donations, etc. I would guess that tithing was a minority source especially considering how loose tithing was until President Snow.

[The Nehor]

Specifically? No.   I run a business and in my chart of accounts I have many line items.  But a simple balance statement does let me know where my money goes, not specifically, but generally.    Salary, debt service, utilities, donations...... and so forth.   This balance sheet is 1 page and sometimes two at the most.  

So I hope you have just a specific job at your business because anyone who is really in control of the success of the business would not refer to the $$ as just "numbers in a bank".

A simple church balance statement would do one of two things.  1: Members would say, "wow, look at how much our church donates to worthy causes." or 2. "wow, after taking care of everything it takes to run the church,salary, "stipends", overhead, we only dontate a very small percentage to charity causes." 

Will the church get beaten up over a financial statement by non or ex members and even some current members?  Sure.  Most every entity that releases their financials will have critics.  But those that are confidant in their endeavors will not waver from their trek. Should the church worry about their critics?  No, they are just people with an opinion just as those are just 'numbers in a bank.'

Money is just recorded numbers in a bank. There is obviously more to it. I do have a specific job. Just helped sell several million dollars of equipment to the state of Idaho. Thanks Idaho taxpayers for paying my salary.

The Church balance sheet would not be one or two pages. I find complaints about the church not helping in worthy causes enough silly. That money comes from donations earmarked for the purpose. The correct response to the Church not helping enough is to increase your donations. I know one guy who complained that the Church did not do enough while donating $2 a month to Fast Offerings and nothing to funds like Humanitarian Aid. Be the solution.

[Sleeper Cell]

Also we need to remember the GA's and Apostle's are called - this isn't something they apply for or seek to create a career path to get to.

If one did seek to create a career path to become a GA,  it would probably require him to spend far more time in unpaid church service than that spent by you, me and the OP, put together.  Five or six years as a bishop, perhaps even more as a stake president (certainly these are far more time consuming than any callings I have ever had) -- this on top of the "usual" church service callings held by “ordinary” members.  And, considering the number of current and former bishops and stake presidents in the Church and the very few GA “openings” each year, it is extremely unlikely he will ever be chosen. On top of that, it appears that strong preference is given to those who don‘t particularly want to become GAs. Some carrier path.  

Edited September 29, 2014 by Sleeper Cell

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I read that the $1.2 million condominium at 40 N State is home to the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and is free from property taxes.

Is that what it cost or is that what it is worth? There is quite the difference there.