Ballard To Women: "don't Talk Too Much" -- A Joke?

[Brian 2.0]

Some may have heard the noise regarding a quote from Elder Ballard in the Europe Sisters' Conference:

 

That you will let your voices be heard, we cannot, we cannot meet our destiny as the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in preparing this world for the 2nd coming of the Savior of the world without the support and the faith and the strength of the women of this church. We need you. We need your voices. They need to be heard. They need to be heard in your community, in your neighborhoods, they need to be heard within the ward council or the branch council. Now don’t talk too much in those council meetings, just straighten the brethren out quickly and move the work on. We are building the kingdom of God.

 

 

 

Is he joking here?  It kinda hard to tell.  Here's the video

 

Has to be a joke, right?  Or else... wow.

 

This is also the same conference that got in some heat for promoting the Sister Conference with a flier that only touted MALE speakers as a draw:

 

[stemelbow]

Some may have heard the noise regarding a quote from Elder Ballard in the Europe Sisters' Conference:

 

 

Is he joking here?  It kinda hard to tell.  Here's the video

 

Has to be a joke, right?  Or else... wow.

 

This is also the same conference that got in some heat for promoting the Sister Conference with a flier that only touted MALE speakers as a draw:

 

We have sensitive ears these days, waiting to hear something worth disagreeing about. Sometimes I think that's the case. I assume it was a bad joke. Speaking for myself I think it wise to not talk too much in meetings. I'm not important enough. I'd take that as useful advice, but I'm not a woman.

[MorningStar]

I would think he means not to make the meetings longer than necessary with chit-chat, which we are very good at.    Every week after church, my kids ask, "MOM!  Can we go now?!"

[HappyJackWagon]

 

Some may have heard the noise regarding a quote from Elder Ballard in the Europe Sisters' Conference:

 

 

Is he joking here?  It kinda hard to tell.   

Has to be a joke, right?  Or else... wow.

 

Even if he is joking...wow. It's just antiquated humor but the problem is that it's rooted in chauvenism. A lot of old men make jokes like this because in the 50-60's is was okay and funny. I don't blame him for this and I don't think he meant any harm, but times are different and it's not really a joking matter when sensitivities about chauvenism in the church are open sores.

[ksfisher]

That you will let your voices be heard, we cannot, we cannot meet our destiny as the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in preparing this world for the 2nd coming of the Savior of the world without the support and the faith and the strength of the women of this church. We need you. We need your voices. They need to be heard. They need to be heard in your community, in your neighborhoods, they need to be heard within the ward council or the branch council. Now don’t talk too much in those council meetings, just straighten the brethren out quickly and move the work on. We are building the kingdom of God.

 

 

Elder Ballard seems to be counseling us to be economic with our voices in council meeting.  But, as I've bolded above, he seems to very much want to women of the church to be heard.

[Storm Rider]

I agree. I think we should take offense at every occasion; it just seems more sensible. If we can wear our feelings on our sleeve it makes for so much more drama, I mean happiness in the world.  Humor, even attempted humor, when not strictly politically correct should be stamped out ruthlessly.  More importantly, we should record every offense and advertise it....except for our own.  That we need to be kept hidden.  If someone leads they need to be perfect and if not perfect banned from leadership as soon as an error is discovered regardless how small and insignificant.  

Thank you for pointing this egregious example and down with the tyrant and all like him; he is a white male and you know they cannot be trusted in any situation.  

[HappyJackWagon]

 

I agree. I think we should take offense at every occasion; it just seems more sensible. If we can wear our feelings on our sleeve it makes for so much more drama, I mean happiness in the world.  Humor, even attempted humor, when not strictly politically correct should be stamped out ruthlessly.  More importantly, we should record every offense and advertise it....except for our own.  That we need to be kept hidden.  If someone leads they need to be perfect and if not perfect banned from leadership as soon as an error is discovered regardless how small and insignificant.  

Thank you for pointing this egregious example and down with the tyrant and all like him; he is a white male and you know they cannot be trusted in any situation.

 

Or we could just try learning from the mistake so we don't step on the same land mine again.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I would think he means not to make the meetings longer than necessary with chit-chat, which we are very good at.    Every week after church, my kids ask, "MOM!  Can we go now?!"

I guess Brian has not been to my ward council? Every week almost 2 hours??? Why does it go on for almost 2 hours? You know why? Ward Council drives me nuts. It shouldn't but it does.

 

Even if this thing quoted in the OP is a joke it is a valid joke in my eyes.

Edited September 17, 2014 by Mola Ram Suda Ram

[Brian 2.0]

That you will let your voices be heard, we cannot, we cannot meet our destiny as the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in preparing this world for the 2nd coming of the Savior of the world without the support and the faith and the strength of the women of this church. We need you. We need your voices. They need to be heard. They need to be heard in your community, in your neighborhoods, they need to be heard within the ward council or the branch council. Now don’t talk too much in those council meetings, just straighten the brethren out quickly and move the work on. We are building the kingdom of God.

 

 

Elder Ballard seems to be counseling us to be economic with our voices in council meeting.  But, as I've bolded above, he seems to very much want to women of the church to be heard.

 

But is he counseling women to be "economic" with their voices and not men?   

 

hard to tell for sure since this is a sisters' conference.

[Brian 2.0]

I agree. I think we should take offense at every occasion; it just seems more sensible. If we can wear our feelings on our sleeve it makes for so much more drama, I mean happiness in the world.  Humor, even attempted humor, when not strictly politically correct should be stamped out ruthlessly.  More importantly, we should record every offense and advertise it....except for our own.  That we need to be kept hidden.  If someone leads they need to be perfect and if not perfect banned from leadership as soon as an error is discovered regardless how small and insignificant.  

Thank you for pointing this egregious example and down with the tyrant and all like him; he is a white male and you know they cannot be trusted in any situation.  

 

Storm,  if it's NOT a joke, it's worth bringing up.

 

And there is debate on whether it was a joke or not, so I brought it up.

 

And even knowing for sure it's a joke, there could be discussion on if it's appropriate or not.

 

I'm not calling for his resignation or anything... I'm not trying to "stamp it out ruthlessly" 

 

Do you really think I'm doing that?  My tone is FAR better than some threads I've seen on statements from Kate Kelly or John Dehlin.

[ksfisher]

But is he counseling women to be "economic" with their voices and not men?   

 

hard to tell for sure since this is a sisters' conference.

 

I'm sure that the advice could be taken by all.  Women take words that are spoken to men in the scriptures and apply it to their lives, men could do the same in this case.

 

"this is a sisters' conference" is probably the biggest clue as to why he's addressing the comment to women.

[Glenn101]

I agree. I think we should take offense at every occasion; it just seems more sensible. If we can wear our feelings on our sleeve it makes for so much more drama, I mean happiness in the world.  Humor, even attempted humor, when not strictly politically correct should be stamped out ruthlessly.  More importantly, we should record every offense and advertise it....except for our own.  That we need to be kept hidden.  If someone leads they need to be perfect and if not perfect banned from leadership as soon as an error is discovered regardless how small and insignificant.  

Thank you for pointing this egregious example and down with the tyrant and all like him; he is a white male and you know they cannot be trusted in any situation.  

 

Storm,  if it's NOT a joke, it's worth bringing up.

 

And there is debate on whether it was a joke or not, so I brought it up.

 

And even knowing for sure it's a joke, there could be discussion on if it's appropriate or not.

 

I'm not calling for his resignation or anything... I'm not trying to "stamp it out ruthlessly" 

 

Do you really think I'm doing that?  My tone is FAR better than some threads I've seen on statements from Kate Kelly or John Dehlin.

 

I think that Storm was spot on in his sarcasm. But his "More importantly, we should record every offense and advertise it....except for our own.  That we need to be kept hidden.  If someone leads they need to be perfect and if not perfect banned from leadership as soon as an error is discovered regardless how small and insignificant. " is the reality of what is going on. with all too many.

 

Criticism of church leaders has found a bully pulpit in the internet.

 

Glenn

[Brian 2.0]

Criticism of church leaders has found a bully pulpit in the internet.

 

Everything as found a pulpit on the internet.  Criticism of church leaders is just one of countless.

[rpn]

I got that people reacted to a flyer  inviting women to a women's meeting, on which was prominently displayed, only men.  (And I also get why those who made the flyer were highlighting the GAs who were coming specially, and I strongly suspect that whomever did it and approved it does not struggle with women's place in the church.)

 

It is utterly astounding that Elder Ballard compounded that with a stereotype of women who he was clearly trying to invite to be fully part of leadership circles.

 

I'm guessing that there is nothing we can say that will be more sharp than the way Elder Ballard was talking to himself as soon as the words exited his mouth.

 

The first report I heard though of what he said was from someone who surrepticiously recorded the talk, which means that he didn't intend for his words to be heard by anyone except those women at the meeting (I know, bad enough).

Edited September 17, 2014 by rpn

[Scott Lloyd]

Classic example of making a man an offender for a word.

 

Bad enough in itself, but compounded here by evil speaking of the Lord's anointed.

[cinepro]

I've listened to it a few times, and I think it's obviously a "joke", but I think there's also a tint of truthful feeling to the joke.  I just really feel sorry for anyone that had to translate that comment into other languages, because whatever hint of a joke there might have been in his delivery was surely lost in translation.

 

One key point is that if you actually watch it here, you'll notice the audience does chuckle a little, so they at least understood at some level that what he said was "humorous".

 

Times and Seasons has a good look here.

 

They point out that Elder Ballard also said this in this month's Ensign:

 

 

 

Now, sisters, while your input is significant and welcome in effective councils, you need to be careful not to assume a role that is not yours. The most successful ward and stake councils are those in which priesthood leaders trust their sister leaders and encourage them to contribute to the discussions and in which sister leaders fully respect and sustain the decisions of the council made under the direction of priesthood leaders who hold keys.

 

Sep 2014 Ensign

So he might have been joking, but also meant what he said.

Edited September 17, 2014 by cinepro

[JeremyOrbe-Smith]

gluuuhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

[Buckeye]

Is it just me or does anyone else find the statement "just straighten the brethren out quickly" to be the most troublesome part of the quote?  Perhaps he was just joking about that as well.  If not, what exactly does he mean?  Ward council members, including women, are supposed to counsel together, not "straighten out" the bishop and other brethren.  Imagine if the church invited men into Primary Presidency meetings to "straighten out the sisters."  Judging by the PR department's reaction to OW, it seems as that the general authorities are not too keen on being straightened out by sisters.  So why encourage that at the local level?

[ksfisher]

I got that people reacted to a flyer  inviting women to a women's meeting, on which was prominently displayed, only men.  (And I also get why those who made the flyer were highlighting the GAs who were coming specially, and I strongly suspect that whomever did it and approved it does not struggle with women's place in the church.)

 

 

I believe it was pointed out on another thread that the poster was created before the speakers were finalized.

[Buckeye]

Classic example of making a man an offender for a word.

 

Bad enough in itself, but compounded here by evil speaking of the Lord's anointed.

 

I've only seen evil speaking (actually, mostly questioning) of the statement, not the speaker.  I'm pretty sure we are allowed to speak against wrongful statements, regardless of who they come from. 

[ksfisher]

Judging by the PR department's reaction to OW, it seems as that the general authorities are not too keen on being straightened out by sisters.  So why encourage that at the local level?

 

One setting is in a church council, the other is a protest.

[AndyDnom]

he was obviously making an attempt at humor. and it comes across as more harsh in print than it would in a room where people laugh at the slightest hint of a joke.

[Calm]

 

Elder Ballard seems to be counseling us to be economic with our voices in council meeting.  But, as I've bolded above, he seems to very much want to women of the church to be heard.

My understanding is this is counsel he has given to men over the years…don't prolong meetings with unnecessary conversation, focus, deal with the needed stuff and go home.

 

I think he was trying to make a lighthearted comment that was unfortunate given the current atmosphere and need imo to encourage women to speak up in male dominated meetings (studies show that in general women will not speak as much in meetings unless they are over 60% of the participants IIRC) just in order for everyone to fulfill their callings to the best of their abilities.  I hear too often of women attending ward council but then not contributing for some reason.  For those sensitive to wondering if they should speak at all, they may focus on the latter and not the former "let your voice be heard".

[juliann]

I don't fault Elder Ballard for falling back on old patterns. It is the old patterns that are the problem, not him. He has been a champion in supporting women in councils at all. This meeting seemed more informal, I can easily see how a quick off the cuff aside could be thrown in when it wasn't planned.

 

I see two common patterns that would be helpful to eliminate. First, is the "we/the church" vs "you women out there" that we often hear. It makes me feel like it's not really my church, I'm just being invited to someone else's. Second, is setting up special rules for women when the odds are already against them (they are a minority in councils to begin with, which again reinforces the "we" vs "you women.")  Being told to talk but not too much would likely result in me being silent because it is far too subjective of a request to be able to follow with any confidence.

 

But there is a learning curve we are going to have to deal with. It has taken a long time to change the way the way the majority (or those who have privilege) speak about the minority without thinking of the ramifications. There are some funny videos turning the tables to show what it sounds like if Asians said the things to whites that they commonly hear, for example.

[Calm]

 

 

The first report I heard though of what he said was from someone who surrepticiously recorded the talk, which means that he didn't intend for his words to be heard by anyone except those women at the meeting (I know, bad enough).

The meeting was streamed live online, I believe.  At least it was on lds.org.uk