Ballard To Women: "don't Talk Too Much" -- A Joke?

[Scott Lloyd]

I've only seen evil speaking (actually, mostly questioning) of the statement, not the speaker.  I'm pretty sure we are allowed to speak against wrongful statements, regardless of who they come from. 

Making a man an offender for a word (assuming ill intent in a statement when the ill intent is not obvious) is, by nature, speaking evil of that man.

 

There's a lot of meaning in that phrase from Isaiah, and we, in this supposed communication age, would do well to consider it.

Edited September 18, 2014 by Scott Lloyd

[cinepro]

Thanks for the reminder that not every word that comes out of an Apostle's mouth is meant for the masses.  It seems like an obvious thing but in this world where everyone has access to everything all the time, i think we forget that it's not about 'us' and our feelings and world view all the time.

 

It sounds like Ballard is way more in touch with the reality of things than most of us on this thread.  

Good point, and I hope you continue to contribute to this thread. But please keep your posts to an appropriate length and number, so the men in this thread can stay on point with the important discussion.

[cinepro]

Making a man an offender for a word (assuming ill intent in a statement when the ill intent is not obvious) is, by nature, speaking evil of that man.

 

There's a lot of meaning in that phrase from Isaiah, and we, in this supposed communication age, would do well to consider it.

 

I agree. It's annoying when an Apostle says " don’t talk too much in those council meetings" to the women, and they take it the wrong way. He obviously meant it the nice way.

 

I've heard that women feel marginalized and diminished in their roles in the wards and stakes, but now I can see that they're just "assuming ill intent" on the part of the leaders when all the leaders want is for them to be active, participating members of the councils that don't talk too much.

[Scott Lloyd]

I agree. It's annoying when an Apostle says " don’t talk too much in those council meetings" to the women, and they take it the wrong way. He obviously meant it the nice way.

 

I've heard that women feel marginalized and diminished in their roles in the wards and stakes, but now I can see that they're just "assuming ill intent" on the part of the leaders when all the leaders want is for them to be active, participating members of the councils that don't talk too much.

As I said: Making a man an offender for a word.

[wenglund]

 

 

Even if he is joking...wow. It's just antiquated humor but the problem is that it's rooted in chauvenism. A lot of old men make jokes like this because in the 50-60's is was okay and funny. I don't blame him for this and I don't think he meant any harm, but times are different and it's not really a joking matter when sensitivities about chauvenism in the church are open sores.

 

It is demeaning to women for you to project not only your humor impairment onto them, but your histrionics in relation to a relatively benign comment made in good faith and with the best of intents. 

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[bluebell]

I agree. It's annoying when an Apostle says " don’t talk too much in those council meetings" to the women, and they take it the wrong way. He obviously meant it the nice way.

 

I've heard that women feel marginalized and diminished in their roles in the wards and stakes, but now I can see that they're just "assuming ill intent" on the part of the leaders when all the leaders want is for them to be active, participating members of the councils that don't talk too much.

 

Have there been any women who were at the meeting who have taken offense?  Ballard didn't say this to all women, he said it to a specific group of women, so it's not accurate to say that he said this 'to the women and they take it the wrong way' unless you are specifically speaking about women he was actually talking to.

 

If there are some women from Europe who were at the meeting or heard it later who were offended then I think it would be great to share that here.

 

What we do have so far is a member of this forum (jana at jade's house) who lives in Europe and was actually at the meeting who has expressed that no one there took offense and that it made complete sense in the context and place it was given because of the unique culture and experience of European women.

 

Maybe, if we value women's opinions so much, we should actually listen to them.  

[Scott Lloyd]

It is demeaning to women for you to project not only your humor impairment onto them, but your histrionics in relation to a relatively benign comment made in good faith and with the best of intents. 

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

That seems to be happening a lot on this thread.

[bluebell]

Good point, and I hope you continue to contribute to this thread. But please keep your posts to an appropriate length and number, so the men in this thread can stay on point with the important discussion.

 

That might be a relevant reply, if Elder Ballard had been speaking to this group.   But why let the facts get in the way of your righteous indignation.  

Edited September 18, 2014 by bluebell

[cinepro]

That might be a relevant reply, if Elder Ballard had been speaking to this group.   But why let the facts get in the way of your righteous indignation.  

 

I'm not righteously indignant.  After all, Elder Ballard apparently doesn't care how much I talk in Ward Councils.

[Stone holm]

Even if he is joking...wow. It's just antiquated humor but the problem is that it's rooted in chauvenism. A lot of old men make jokes like this because in the 50-60's is was okay and funny. I don't blame him for this and I don't think he meant any harm, but times are different and it's not really a joking matter when sensitivities about chauvenism in the church are open sores.

I think you nailed it. This is a hazard of insulating GAs and promoting the 50's as some type of golden era.

[HappyJackWagon]

HappyJackWagon, on 17 Sept 2014 - 11:34 AM, said:

 
 
Even if he is joking...wow. It's just antiquated humor but the problem is that it's rooted in chauvenism. A lot of old men make jokes like this because in the 50-60's is was okay and funny. I don't blame him for this and I don't think he meant any harm, but times are different and it's not really a joking matter when sensitivities about chauvenism in the church are open sores.

 

It is demeaning to women for you to project not only your humor impairment onto them, but your histrionics in relation to a relatively benign comment made in good faith and with the best of intents. 

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

 

You do remember reading this in my quote right? "I don't blame him for this and I don't think he meant any harm"

 

Humor impairment? Are you claiming the joke was funny? If so, I think you may be the first. Don't laugh yourself silly.

Histrionics?

noun

1. exaggerated dramatic behavior designed to attract attention:

I added the definition because I do not think that word means what you think it means. I don't see the histrionics in my quote. Please enlighten me.

 

You seem determined to be offended by me but you are the one making personal attacks.
 

[wenglund]

 

You seem determined to be offended by me but you are the one making personal attacks. 

 

 

In my experience, some of the people most vocal in their support of women's issue are the least aware of the way they demean women, inadvertently or otherwise. Without intending it, this seems to be the case with your posts. You are so busy looking for the mote in other people's eyes, that you can't see the beam in your own--which is why I find your "seem determined to be offended" comment so ironic. Perhaps climing down from your high horse and taking some time for self-reflection may be helpful.

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited September 18, 2014 by wenglund

[HappyJackWagon]

In my experience, some of the people most vocal in their support of women's issue are the least aware of the way they demean women, inadvertently or otherwise. Without intending it, this seems to be the case with your posts. You are so busy looking for the mote in other people's eyes, that you can't see the beam in your own--which is why I find your "seem determined to be offended" comment so ironic. Perhaps climing down from your high horse and taking some time for self-reflection may be helpful.

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Yes, you've stated on a couple of different threads that I demean women by taking a stance different than yours. It's as if I've come up with these arguments that no woman has ever argued because it demeans them. You're attempting to be dismissive of my position by accusing me of being demeaning.

 

I'm not the one calling people to repentence and self-reflection. Who's on the high horse?

[Stone holm]

Yes, you've stated on a couple of different threads that I demean women by taking a stance different than yours. It's as if I've come up with these arguments that no woman has ever argued because it demeans them. You're attempting to be dismissive of my position by accusing me of being demeaning.

 

I'm not the one calling people to repentence and self-reflection. Who's on the high horse?

It's a pretty common theme that allows males trying to stand up for women to be classified as sexist.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

It's a pretty common theme that allows males trying to stand up for women to be classified as sexist.

Straw men are indeed useful.

[bluebell]

After all, Elder Ballard apparently doesn't care how much I talk in Ward Councils.

And that seems to be the exact reason for all the indignation.

Of course, he doesn't seem to care how much I talk either, since he hasn't said a thing to me about it.

Edited September 19, 2014 by bluebell

[stemelbow]

Have there been any women who were at the meeting who have taken offense?  Ballard didn't say this to all women, he said it to a specific group of women, so it's not accurate to say that he said this 'to the women and they take it the wrong way' unless you are specifically speaking about women he was actually talking to.

 

If there are some women from Europe who were at the meeting or heard it later who were offended then I think it would be great to share that here.

 

What we do have so far is a member of this forum (jana at jade's house) who lives in Europe and was actually at the meeting who has expressed that no one there took offense and that it made complete sense in the context and place it was given because of the unique culture and experience of European women.

European women come from a plethora of cultures and experiences. There's not just one European culture and experience. The same could have been said to a US audience of women and most to all might not be offended at all either, but that's not so much the point. Offense? Not really. Does it represent an attitude or culture of disrespecting women in any way? It's a fair question. Does our culture, does our tradition unintentionally treat women unfairly? probably. Does that mean Ballard or any one else is a misogynist or something? not at all. It means we may have something to actually deal with here.

 

Maybe, if we value women's opinions so much, we should actually listen to them.  

perhaps the loudest and most often repeated concern from OW, interestingly enough.

[cinepro]

One thing that bugs me about the "joke" is that I've had to teach my kids that saying something mean or otherwise disturbing and then following it up with "just kidding" doesn't mean you didn't say it, and it doesn't mean you're funny. 

 

That's the main reason I don't buy the "joke" theory; it's basic, basic social skills (that and the terrible delivery if it was a joke).

 

Also, "humor" isn't equated with "doesn't believe what they say".  Some of the best humor is funny because the comedian means exactly what they say (and they may be saying something very important), but they say it in a funny way.

 

So even if he was joking, I think he meant what he said, and he seriously thinks there might be problems with RS Presidents or Primary Presidents spending too much time talking about their "concerns" in Ward Councils, at the expense of the real business getting done. 

Edited September 19, 2014 by cinepro

[bluebell]

European women come from a plethora of cultures and experiences. There's not just one European culture and experience.

Very true. My point wasn't to imply otherwise. It was only to imply that maybe we should let those European women speak to whether or not what Ballard said was offense since 1)-they are the only people he was speaking to and 2) their experience in the church is nothing like the American woman's experience and that is relevant.

 

Does it represent an attitude or culture of disrespecting women in any way? It's a fair question.

 

 

I agree it's a fair question.  I just disagree it's one that American saints are capable of answering.  And I think we completely don't get that. 

 

perhaps the loudest and most often repeated concern from OW, interestingly enough.

 

 

True.

 

Though no one is suggesting that listening to women means you can't disagree with them, if you actually have experience that makes your disagreement valid.

Edited September 19, 2014 by bluebell

[Nofear]

So even if he was joking, I think he meant what he said, and he seriously thinks there might be problems with RS Presidents or Primary Presidents spending too much time talking about their "concerns" in Ward Councils, at the expense of the real business getting done. 

 

I think your characterization of Elder Ballard's comment as indicating a woman's voice doesn't contribute to "real business" both incorrect, out-of-context, demeaning, and disrespectful. He had just finished only a few seconds before specifically stating that the voices of women were necessary and must be heard for us to meet the destiny of the Church. If that's not "real business" I'm not sure what you think is.

 

 

Edit: grammar police

Edited September 19, 2014 by Nofear

[cinepro]

I think your characterization of Elder Ballard's comment as indicating a woman's voice doesn't contribute to "real business" both incorrect, out-of-context, demeaning, and disrespectful. He had just finished only a few seconds before specifically stating that the voices of women were necessary and must be heard for us to meet the destiny of the Church. If that's not "real business" I'm not sure what you think is.

 

 

Edit: grammar police

 

If women participating in Ward Councils contributes to the Church "meeting its destiny" to such a great degree, why would such participation ever need to be limited?

Edited September 19, 2014 by cinepro

[bluebell]

If women participating in Ward Councils contributes to the Church "meeting its destiny" to such a great degree, why would such participation ever need to be limited?

Isn't that like asking "if water is essential for the body to meet its full potential, why would water ever need to be limited?"

Even essential things can destroy if they are applied without restraint. What is good or life saving in one amount can be poisonous in another.

[cinepro]

Isn't that like asking "if water is essential for the body to meet its full potential, why would water ever need to be limited?"

Even essential things can destroy if they are applied without restraint. What is good or life saving in one amount can be poisonous in another.

 

Well, not being a woman, and not attending Ward Councils, I'll just have to take your word for it.

 

That being said, I do sit on a committee in the ward that is chaired by a woman, and consists of about half men and half women.  Until now, the women have seemed to feel free to speak as much as they like.  I wonder if we've been doing it wrong, or Elder Ballard's comment only applies to Ward Councils specifically.

[Storm Rider]

Cine, I go back to the fact that Ballard has counseled men the same as he as counseled women.  I feel that we are overburdened by the number of meetings in the Church and many of them are ineffective and take too long because "talking" is unending.  Meetings should be a productive, efficient use of time and then closed allowing individuals to spend their time as they choose rather than in another planning meeting.  

 

If it is good for the goose it is good for the gander - why is there continued discussion on something where the counsel has been the same?  We have become so hypersensitive that even when there is no offense, we choose to be offended and yammer on about it.  There are no mountains, but small motes of dust that are being tripped over and put before others to trip them.  

[halconero]

Given the fact that I've heard Elder Ballard give the same advice, in the same context, to male leaders in the Church I think most people here are reading it wrong.

 

That you will let your voices be heard, we cannot, we cannot meet our destiny as the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in preparing this world for the 2nd coming of the Savior of the world without the support and the faith and the strength of the women of this church. We need you. We need your voices. They need to be heard. They need to be heard in your community, in your neighborhoods, they need to be heard within the ward council or the branch council. Now don’t talk too much in those council meetings, just straighten the brethren out quickly and move the work on. We are building the kingdom of God.

 

When he came to Phoenix to go over missionary coordination meeting and hastening the work in the ward council he told the Bishops, Ward Mission Leaders, and Stake Presidents from the area to ensure that they (the collective membership in the meeting) don't spend to much time talking, but make assignments and "move the work on", the same phrase he uses here. He's not trying to muzzle women here, he's trying to urge those in ward council to ensure that their time is spent effectively during meetings.