Ok There Seems To Be A Problem With Polygamy In The Church's Past

[VideoGameJunkie]

Rivers, I agree with you as I also think there will be more women in the Celestial Kingdom than men.

[JLHPROF]

Do the scriptures you need to be a polygamist to be exalted?

 

That depends on how you read D&C 132.  And that is why the issue keeps reappearing.

[JLHPROF]

Please, do not confuse me with the CofC in the future. And though I am currently associated with the RLDS Restoration Movement I have my own brain and study the scriptures for myself.

My personal conclusion, which now accepts the practice of polygamy for families who feel so lead in real time, not when a man gives them permission, comes from my reading of scripture.

 

I certainly meant no offense to your personal beliefs.  But to accept restoration polygamy and dismiss D&C 132 just doesn't work.  Without D&C 132 there should never have been a single plural marriage in all or Mormonism because there is no other scriptural restoration.

[erdoch]

I think you hit the nail on the head there.  I think that is a problem a lot of struggling members have.  They are too quick to get hung up on difficult issues when they only have a shallow understanding of them.

 

Agreed. It seems easy to judge based on superficial knowledge. It takes patience and study to be able to take an informed stand. Polygamy is a tough one, though, because if you're completely opposed to the idea of it being right at any point in time you probably won't be open to God having revealed it to Joseph Smith. So one has to be humble and open to that, at least.

 

But I'm probably not in line with the main direction of this thread, so I'll go back to lurking status

[BookofMormonLuvr]

I certainly meant no offense to your personal beliefs.  But to accept restoration polygamy and dismiss D&C 132 just doesn't work.  Without D&C 132 there should never have been a single plural marriage in all or Mormonism because there is no other scriptural restoration.

That misunderstanding is the problem Christian churches face because they have regulated the OT to lesser status. If you embrace the OT as profitable for doctrine and reproof, as you should, acknowledging the practice of polygamy as a limited acceptable marriage arrangement doesn't become an issue. You don't need some "new" revelation to see it is OK in certain cases.

I now believe early Mormon leaders correctly discerned the practice as somewhat acceptable, but felt they needed something spectacular, a 'revelation', to convince people who might otherwise reject just their simply expounding the reasons for allowing it from scripture... thus we have D&C 132.

[AndyDnom]

Different time.  When you read the Nauvoo temple records there were many young men receving their ordinances between 15-18 who were then married to their wives 14-17.  This idea of the 18 year old adult didn't hit until well into the 20th century.

 

It's like, oh wow, Joseph had a 14 year old wife.  Well, so did the 16 year old guy next to him.  It was not the norm, but it also wasn't strange.

 

did the 16 year old guy next to him have another 10 wives, and lie to his original wife and the public about it?

[katherine the great]

I now believe early Mormon leaders correctly discerned the practice as somewhat acceptable, but felt they needed something spectacular, a 'revelation', to convince people who might otherwise reject just their simply expounding the reasons for allowing it from scripture... thus we have D&C 132.

To convince the people or to convince Emma?  

[Sevenbak]

14 year-olds then are not the 14 year-olds of today. Book of Jasher says Rebecca was 10 when Isaac married her (not saying that is proper for today)...

 

 

Rebecca was 10 and Isaac was 40.  If that were judged by today's standards, he'd be in prison.  And wether or not you believe Isaac was a polygamist according to D&C 132, the bible does state that his son Esau took a third wife in order to please his father Isaac, so it's hard to argue he was against such a practice of multiple or very young wives.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

To convince the people or to convince Emma?  

 

This is where it gets sticky... I still believe Joseph was innocent of the charge of physically practicing polygamy. I believe he may have expounded the scriptural theory of the practice being acceptable to those closest to him and they ran with it and attached the practice, not just the theory, to his name.

[Tacenda]

Rebecca was 10 and Isaac was 40. If that were judged by today's standards, he'd be in prison. And wether or not you believe Isaac was a polygamist according to D&C 132, the bible does state that his son Esau took a third wife in order to please his father Isaac, so it's hard to argue he was against such a practice of multiple or very young wives.

Did God command it.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

Rebecca was 10 and Isaac was 40.  If that were judged by today's standards, he'd be in prison.  And wether or not you believe Isaac was a polygamist according to D&C 132, the bible does state that his son Esau took a third wife in order to please his father Isaac, so it's hard to argue he was against such a practice of multiple or very young wives.

I never argued that Isaac was against it, There is just no evidence from the OT that he practiced it like his father or his son did. And apparently you are misreading my post because I didn't argue against young wives either.

[Sevenbak]

Did God command it.

In the OT?  I know of at least one instance in the Law of Moses where it was a commandment, (Deuteronomy 25:5) and many others where it was accommodated for in the Law, or referenced as history. (Gen. 16:1–11 ; Gen. 25:1 ; Gen. 29:28 ; Gen. 30:4, 9, 26 ; Ex. 21:10 ; Deut. 21:15 ; 2 Sam. 2:2 ;2 Sam. 5:13 ; 2 Sam. 12:7–9 ; 1 Kgs. 11:1–4 ; 2 Chr. 13:21 ; 2 Chr. 24:3 ; Isa. 4:1   

I would say that the one place where an OT testament prophet says that God directly endorsed the practice was 2 Samuel 12:8.

Edited August 31, 2014 by Sevenbak

[Garden Girl]

Rebecca was 10 and Isaac was 40.  If that were judged by today's standards, he'd be in prison.  And wether or not you believe Isaac was a polygamist according to D&C 132, the bible does state that his son Esau took a third wife in order to please his father Isaac, so it's hard to argue he was against such a practice of multiple or very young wives.

 

People get hung up on the 14 year old... or 16, or 17... whatever... without even considering the context of the times.  I've told this before as an example of "the times" ... My Great-gr-gr-Aunt Conception Arguello was 15 when in 1805 a Russian company from Sitka sailed into San Francisco Bay to the Presidio, where my Great-Gr-Gr-Gr- Grandfather, Jose Dario Arguello ("Concha's" father), was Commandante.  The Russian colonies were in terrible shape, so 42 year old Nicolai Rezanov, the Chamberlain of the Russian Tzar was sent to do something about the situation.  So he sailed with a company on the ship, Juno, to San Francisco to seek assistance from the Spaniards.  But Spain had forbidden her colonies to trade with the Russians. 

 

Rezanov was received warmly by the Arguellos, and Gov Arellago came up from Monterey to meet with Rezanov... who hoped to negotiate an agreement with the Spaniards... Such an agreement was finally reached... and during this time Rezanov became acquainted with Concha Arguello, who was conceded to be one of the most beautiful women of New Spain.  During the weeks Rezonov spent with the Arguellos, Concha was enthralled with him, and he with her... a romance developed, which ended tragically and became a part of historical California... songs, poems, books, plays, and just recently a sculpture of the two (15 year old Concha and 42 year old Rezanov) was erected at the Presidio...   

In the context of "the times" it was not unusual for a young woman to marry an older man... almost every book about that era of Calif history tells the story of Concepcion and Rezanov... it is celebrated... even today.

 

It was a different time... life spans were much shorter, etc.  If a woman reached the age of 18, 19, 20, she was looked upon practically as an old maid or spinster...  I just think it's important to keep a proper context and perspective of that era...

 

GG

Edited August 31, 2014 by Garden Girl

[Sevenbak]

I never argued that Isaac was against it, There is just no evidence from the OT that he practiced it like his father or his son did. And apparently you are misreading my post because I didn't argue against young wives either.

You're right, it was someone else arguing about the age 14 thing.  Did Isaac practice it himself, as stated in D&C 132?  Yes, I believe he did.  The bible isn't a complete history, and all those around him were practitioners, so i would make sense to me if he did.

[Sevenbak]

People get hung up on the 14 year old... or 16, or 17... whatever... without even considering the context of the times.  I've told this before as an example of "the times" ... My Great-gr-gr-Aunt Conception Arguello was 15 when in 1805 a Russian company from Sitka sailed into San Francisco Bay to the Presidio, where my Great-Gr-Gr-Gr- Grandfather, Jose Dario Arguello ("Concha's" father), was Commandante.  The Russian colonies were in terrible shape, so 42 year old Nicolai Rezanov, the Chamberlain of the Russian Tzar was sent to do something about the situation.  So he sailed with a company on the ship, Juno, to San Francisco to seek assistance from the Spaniards.  But Spain had forbidden her colonies to trade with the Russians. 

 

Rezanov was received warmly by the Arguellos, and Gov Arellago came up from Monterey to meet with Rezanov... who hoped to negotiate an agreement with the Spaniards... Such an agreement was finally reached... and during this time Rezanov became acquainted with Concha Arguello, who was conceded to be one of the most beautiful women of New Spain.  During the weeks Rezonov spent with the Arguellos, Concha was enthralled with him, and he with her... a romance developed, which ended tragically and became a part of historial California... songs, poems, books, plays, and just recently a sculpture of the two (15 year old Concha and 42 year old Rezanov) was erected at the Presidio...   

In the context of "the times" it was not unusual for a young woman to marry an older man... almost every book about that era of Calif history tells the story of Concepcion and Rezanov... it is celebrated... even today.

 

It was a different time... life spans were much shorter, etc.  If a woman reached the age of 18, 19, 20, she was looked upon practically as an old maid or spinster...  I just think it's important to keep a proper context and perspective of that era...

 

GG

[VideoGameJunkie]

I'm still curious if polygamy will be done in heaven and how the current LDS women feel about it.

[strappinglad]

I'm still curious if polygamy will be done in heaven and how the current LDS women feel about it.

May I suggest making it a matter of fasting and prayer. On the off chance that the answer is neither yes nor no , then it is reasonable to assume that the answer currently has no bearing on your progression and you can safely begin to care for widows and orphans and the poor as Christ commanded.

There is a law that states that my car must have a current registration to operate on the public roads. I may not like that law, I may hate the cost, I may feel it is a restriction to my freedom. Pray tell what influence will my feelings have on the application of that law by the police ?

Edited August 31, 2014 by strappinglad

[Garden Girl]

Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob practiced it and they were exalted, and Brigham Young said only those who practice it will be exalted, so the church and American laws are screwing us over by not allowing us our exaltation then.

 

 

If there is polygamy in heaven and it's necessary for exaltation, then I will accept it.

 

 

I'm still curious if polygamy will be done in heaven and how the current LDS women feel about it.

 

Hello VGJ...

You said you were surprised and had never heard of BY's 50+ wives, etc... Where have you been... I learned about that when I was quite young...

I really dislike your assertion that the Church is "screwing us over" by not allowing us our exaltation.  This is a complete misunderstanding on your part and you really do need to study more

You need to read and study more... no one will be forced to live polygamy.  I personally do not believe it will be required for exaltation.

There are men today who have been sealed to more than one wife, i.e., widowers who remarry for instance.  Example: A young man is sealed to a wife who becomes ill and dies... they have three children born in the Covenant.  Two years later he remarries and is sealed to his second wife, with whom he has several children, also born in the Covenant.  That man will have both his families for the eternities. 

Then there is me... I am widowed... no children... sealed to my husband and he only to me.  I do not want to live polygamy in the eternities (at least not the way I think now), nor do I believe we will be required to do so.  But what if I gain a different perspective beyond the veil... We may choose to do so depending on what God wants  or requires for his children.

 

GG

Edited August 31, 2014 by Garden Girl

[3DOP]

I didn't know much about the polygamy of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young until I read up on it. I had no idea that Brigham Young had 55 wives and 57 children with 16 of his wives and only 46 of his 57 children reached adulthood. And I found out he was being sealed to women who already had husbands.  I also found out that Joseph Smith was being sealed to many wives including a 14 year old a couple 16 year olds and a 17 year old including married women as well.

 

After hearing all this, it leaves me with a couple thoughts. One is they claim they did this so they could be exalted. Well if that were really the case we'd all be practicing polygamy right now to gain our exaltation. The second thought is these guys are supposed to be our leaders and who we base our faith in. I understand how learning this history can have a damaging affect on someone's faith, especially women. And why don't we still practice it today if it's necessary? Just because the country makes it illegal and all of a sudden a revelation comes saying the church will no longer practice it. Coincidence or depriving the biggest chance at exaltation just because of a law? Tell me your thoughts because I've been a member my whole life, and knew somewhat about polygamy, but never this much detail. I'm a little shocked right now.

 

How many wives are too many if polygamy is okay? Are you against polygamy, or are you against too much polygamy? Solomon had several hundred and it might be construed from Scripture that he had too many. But more seriously and certainly, Solomon's wives weren't worshippers of the true God and turned him away from God. If I were LDS I wouldn't be surprised if the President of the Restored Gospel had the most wives since Solomon. But it appears they were LDS women. They believed what he believed. They didn't turn him away from the Restored Gospel. I haven't heard why 46 out of 57 of Brigham Young's children died. But unless it was somehow because of polygamy how could that be an argument against polygamy? Infant mortality isn't a sin in any religion is it? I know why I cannot be tolerant of polygamy (in this era), but that has to do with me being Catholic. I would be happy to help if you want to go that direction. But I don't know how I could be anti-polygamy in the Brigham Young era and LDS at the same time. Why would a Mormon think polygamy is okay for Jacob and David and Abraham but not your guys?

Edited August 31, 2014 by 3DOP

[Calm]

I'm still curious if polygamy will be done in heaven and how the current LDS women feel about it.

If it is necessary to be practiced in order for people to be with the ones they love, I believe it will exist for both men and women (women are now sealed to all their husbands when both are dead and some sealings of a living wife who is a widow to a second husband are taking place, though no policy on it yet) because I don't see women in perfection being any less likely to want to be with all they have committed to in their lives than men.

If it isn't necessary, if love can be expressed and experienced fully without it, I am ambivalent but leaning toward monogamy only.

[Calm]

"Just because the country makes it illegal and all of a sudden a revelation comes saying the church will no longer practice it"

Read OD 1 and the explanations. They were willing to let the temples be taken and themselves destroyed, God was not and he released them from the commandment. It was hardly coincidence, it was a direct action taken by God to save his people and the temples.

[Storm Rider]

Ya, but 14 year olds?

 

This age thing is often exploited by anti-Mormons.  It is supposed to be shocking - 14 years old?  That is almost like being a newborn child - NOT.  Do you know how often 14 year old girls are married in today's world?  How about in the last 100 years?  The last 200 years?  How about 500 years ago?  

 

Did you know that Mary was somewhere between the ages of 12 - 14 years old when the angel Gabriel appeared to her i.e. when she was pregnant with Jesus?  

 

Did you know that in 2002 over 7,000 females gave birth to children in the USA?  

 

Suffice it to say, young people have been getting married since the very earliest times of human civilization.  Some of our most important religious individuals have been married or had children in their youth.  When you know the facts that bit of supposedly shocking news is not really very shocking, but is just human. 

[EllenMaksoud]

This age thing is often exploited by anti-Mormons.  It is supposed to be shocking - 14 years old?  That is almost like being a newborn child - NOT.  Do you know how often 14 year old girls are married in today's world?  How about in the last 100 years?  The last 200 years?  How about 500 years ago?  

 

Did you know that Mary was somewhere between the ages of 12 - 14 years old when the angel Gabriel appeared to her i.e. when she was pregnant with Jesus?  

 

Did you know that in 2002 over 7,000 females gave birth to children in the USA?  

 

Suffice it to say, young people have been getting married since the very earliest times of human civilization.  Some of our most important religious individuals have been married or had children in their youth.  When you know the facts that bit of supposedly shocking news is not really very shocking, but is just human. 

In many areas of the world, a woman is marriageable as soon as she gets her menses. 

[Stargazer]

Ya, but 14 year olds?

My stepmother's first marriage was at age 14, in 1941. Not LDS, either, nor a shotgun wedding. Parental consent was required and was obtained. It is not as uncommon as you might think, at least back then.

[BCSpace]

I didn't know much about the polygamy of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young until I read up on it. I had no idea that Brigham Young had 55 wives and 57 children with 16 of his wives and only 46 of his 57 children reached adulthood. And I found out he was being sealed to women who already had husbands.  I also found out that Joseph Smith was being sealed to many wives including a 14 year old a couple 16 year olds and a 17 year old including married women as well.

 

After hearing all this, it leaves me with a couple thoughts. One is they claim they did this so they could be exalted. Well if that were really the case we'd all be practicing polygamy right now to gain our exaltation. The second thought is these guys are supposed to be our leaders and who we base our faith in. I understand how learning this history can have a damaging affect on someone's faith, especially women. And why don't we still practice it today if it's necessary? Just because the country makes it illegal and all of a sudden a revelation comes saying the church will no longer practice it. Coincidence or depriving the biggest chance at exaltation just because of a law? Tell me your thoughts because I've been a member my whole life, and knew somewhat about polygamy, but never this much detail. I'm a little shocked right now.

 

The information in the last link in my siggy pretty much demolishes the effectiveness of all LDS plural marriage criticism. Most criticisms disappear in puffs of logic. The rest are simply negated as logical or rational issues.

Edited August 31, 2014 by BCSpace