Ok There Seems To Be A Problem With Polygamy In The Church's Past

[Calm]

A lot of prophets practiced circumcisions, do you think that will be required for exaltation?

[VideoGameJunkie]

At my age I certainly hope not. That'd hurt. But if it was necessary for exaltation I'd do it.

Edited September 3, 2014 by VideoGameJunkie

[Calm]

Of course, but why would it be necessary just because it was taught as necessary by a number of prophets...but not by all.

[Tacenda]

Of course, but why would it be necessary just because it was taught as necessary by a number of prophets...but not by all.

You're proving my earlier point...

[VideoGameJunkie]

Well the other prophets have never brought up that it's not necessary. I wonder if Thomas S Monson thinks it's necessary for exaltation, but just isn't saying anything to the members because of the controversy of the topic and the laws of America. I mean the prophet didn't get the "revelation" that polygamy was wrong until after America made it illegal.

[JLHPROF]

JLHPROF I read on wiki that Brigham had more wives than Joseph and you know wiki would never lie.

 

I said the most married man in Nauvoo, not ever.  Brigham married many of his wives after leaving Nauvoo.  During the Nauvoo years nobody had more wives than Joseph.

 

Well the other prophets have never brought up that it's not necessary. I wonder if Thomas S Monson thinks it's necessary for exaltation, but just isn't saying anything to the members because of the controversy of the topic and the laws of America. I mean the prophet didn't get the "revelation" that polygamy was wrong until after America made it illegal.

 

I don't think Pres. Monson believes it's necessary for exaltation or he would be risking his.  I think he believes it was withdrawn by revelation as most of the GA's of the last 100 years do.

Oh, and there was never a revelation that polygamy was wrong.  Polygamy is still considered a doctrine from God but one that like Consecration has been temporarily withdrawn.

[VideoGameJunkie]

I didn't mean polygamy in this life. I'm talking strictly that once we die we'll have the chance in the eternities if we've been worthy to be sealed to more than one spouse to achieve our exaltation.

[Calm]

Jacob in the Book of Mormon made it pretty clear it wasn't necessary unless commanded by God.

Also you might want to be aware of this teaching:

"Do not speculate about whether plural marriage is a requirement for the celestial kingdom. We have no knowledge that plural marriage will be a requirement for exaltation.

—LESSON 140: Doctrine and Covenants 132:1–2, 34–66, Doctrine and Covenants and Church History Seminary Teacher Manual (2013)"

http://en.fairmormon.org/Mormonism_and_polygamy/Requirement_for_exaltation

[Calm]

I didn't mean polygamy in this life. I'm talking strictly that once we die we'll have the chance in the eternities if we've been worthy to be sealed to more than one spouse to achieve our exaltation.

Unless you think there is a minimum of twice as many women exalted as men, it would be impossible to be a requirement.

[VideoGameJunkie]

Well in all honesty I do feel more women will be exalted than men, but not twice as many, but who knows. I know men are much more prone to sin.

[JLHPROF]

Unless you think there is a minimum of twice as many women exalted as men, it would be impossible to be a requirement.

 

Why?  Do we know that Heavenly Father had exactly equal numbers of sons and daughters?  Maybe Heavenly Father had 5 spirit daughters for every spirit son?  It's total speculation, but there is no gospel reason to believe that there are equal numbers of each gender.

[Calm]

But what about the higher number of males who died before accountability who we teach as eligible for the celestial kingdom...that is likely hundreds of millions of excess males right there.

[VideoGameJunkie]

Where do you get that there's a higher number of males who died before accountability?

[Tacenda]

Where do you get that there's a higher number of males who died before accountability?

Yeah, what if you are going to share your wife with several husbands???

[VideoGameJunkie]

If that's how heaven works out, that's how it goes.

[Calm]

Where do you get that there's a higher number of males who died before accountability?

It has been demonstrated that the mortality rate of males is higher than for females at pretty much all ages (can't remember for sure during childbirth ages, but that could be counterweighted by higher mortality rate due to war) except as far as I know in cases where infant females are intentionally killed or aborted.

https://www.cmu.edu/CSR/case_studies/women_live_longer.html

Katherine the Great probably has excellent references, if you need more than the above, but it is standard knowledge that men are physically the weaker sex when it comes to actual survival.

There are also more males born than females...except in cases of widespread abortion or infanticide of females.

"The death rates for women are lower than those for men at all ages--even before birth. Although boys start life with some numerical leverage--about 115 males are conceived for every 100 females--their numbers are preferentially whittled down thereafter. Just 104 boys are born for every 100 girls because of the disproportionate rate of spontaneous abortions, stillbirths and miscarriages of male fetuses. More boys than girls die in infancy. And during each subsequent year of life, mortality rates for males exceed those for females, so that by age 25 women are in the majority...Although the reasons women live longer than men may change with time, it seems likely that women have been outliving men for centuries and perhaps longer. Even with the sizable risk conferred by childbirth, women lived longer than men in 1900, and it appears that women have outsurvived men at least since the 1500s, when the first reliable mortality data were kept. Sweden was the first country to collect data on death rates nationally; in that country's earliest records, between 1751 and 1790, the average life expectancy at birth was 36.6 years for women and 33.7 years for men.

Death rates in less developed countries, whose citizens have limited access to cars, guns and maternal care, also provide a measure of mortality before modernity. At present, the only countries in which male life expectancy exceeds that for females are those with long-standing sexual discrimination--including Bangladesh, India and Pakistan--where social pressures and practices such as female infanticide and bride-burning result in unique "losses" of females.

The fact that women live longer than men does not, however, mean that they necessarily enjoy better health. It could be that women live with their diseases, while men die from them. Indeed, there is a difference between the sexes in disease patterns, with women having more chronic nonfatal conditions--such as arthritis, osteoporosis and autoimmune disorders--and men having more fatal conditions, such as heart disease and cancer.".

Edited September 3, 2014 by calmoriah

[VideoGameJunkie]

Well then it will all work itself out in heaven.

[Calm]

Yep...which is a good reason not to speculate on it now considering how some people are prone to take speculation as fact.

[VideoGameJunkie]

Some speculation can be fun and make the mind ponder on issues. I can't wait to find out all the truths and what everything really means in the spirit world. But since this life is about learning, I try to learn and ask a lot of questions and ponder.

[Storm Rider]

Some speculation can be fun and make the mind ponder on issues. I can't wait to find out all the truths and what everything really means in the spirit world. But since this life is about learning, I try to learn and ask a lot of questions and ponder.

 

Interestingly, we have to do a much better job with the truths already revealed before additional truths are added.  

 

I am not sure I buy into the concept that all questions are good; sometimes there are no answers and continuing to ask is like running head-first into a brick wall.  

 

I remain an advocate of following and learning by the Spirit.  He guides in questions to ask as in providing the answers.  

[JLHPROF]

Yep...which is a good reason not to speculate on it now considering how some people are prone to take speculation as fact.

 

If Joseph hadn't speculated about which church to join and then decided to pray about it we wouldn't be here.

If Joseph hadn't speculated about the necessity of baptism and then asked about it we wouldn't have the priesthood or baptism.

If Joseph hadn't speculated about the polygamy of Abraham, Solomon etc we wouldn't have D&C 132.

 

Speculation is 100% necessary in the gospel, as long as like you say, it's not taught as fact.

[Alan]

Interesting point JLHPROF.

A question for you. Why would Joseph need to speculate about Solomon's polygamy when Jacob in the Book of Mormon specifically described it as an abomination?

Yet, according to D&C 132 Joseph was puzzled about the polygamous practices of both David and Solomon and that was the reason he asked about it. Did he not read the Book of Mormon? Did he not notice what Jacob said about David and Solomon's polygamy?

It just doesn't make sense.

It's like asking God if it's ok to covet, even though you're familiar with the Ten Commandments.

I smell a rat and have done for a long time.

[omni]

Interesting point JLHPROF.

A question for you. Why would Joseph need to speculate about Solomon's polygamy when Jacob in the Book of Mormon specifically described it as an abomination?

Yet, according to D&C 132 Joseph was puzzled about the polygamous practices of both David and Solomon and that was the reason he asked about it. Did he not read the Book of Mormon? Did he not notice what Jacob said about David and Solomon's polygamy?

It just doesn't make sense.

It's like asking God if it's ok to covet, even though you're familiar with the Ten Commandments.

I smell a rat and have done for a long time.

 

So why hasn't God alerted Church leaders of the error?  How is our church any different from all of the others if God isn't communicating to its leaders (prophets)?

[JLHPROF]

Interesting point JLHPROF.

A question for you. Why would Joseph need to speculate about Solomon's polygamy when Jacob in the Book of Mormon specifically described it as an abomination?

Yet, according to D&C 132 Joseph was puzzled about the polygamous practices of both David and Solomon and that was the reason he asked about it. Did he not read the Book of Mormon? Did he not notice what Jacob said about David and Solomon's polygamy?

It just doesn't make sense.

It's like asking God if it's ok to covet, even though you're familiar with the Ten Commandments.

I smell a rat and have done for a long time.

 

Simple.  Because Joseph despite his lack of education, could read.

And as I've had to point out to people a million times, Jacob 2 does NOT forbid polygamy.  It tells of a specific time when wicked men were living polygamy and making it an abomination and God withdrew his permission. 

Jacob 2 is not a bunch of good men having polygamy revoked because God didn't approve of it.  Jacob 2 is a bunch of whoremonger wife abusers losing the privilege of living polygamy by turning it into an abomination (think Warren Jeffs). 

 

If we want to consider ourselves in a Jacob 2 situation then we should acknowledge that it is our own weaknesses that put us there.

 

And I'm sure Joseph saw that.

Edited September 3, 2014 by JLHPROF

[USU78]

Interesting point JLHPROF.

A question for you. Why would Joseph need to speculate about Solomon's polygamy when Jacob in the Book of Mormon specifically described it as an abomination?

Yet, according to D&C 132 Joseph was puzzled about the polygamous practices of both David and Solomon and that was the reason he asked about it. Did he not read the Book of Mormon? Did he not notice what Jacob said about David and Solomon's polygamy?

It just doesn't make sense.

It's like asking God if it's ok to covet, even though you're familiar with the Ten Commandments.

I smell a rat and have done for a long time.

 

Once again . . . evidence for the proposition that JSJr didn't author the BoM . . . he wasn't particularly conversant with its contents.