Ok There Seems To Be A Problem With Polygamy In The Church's Past

[Calm]

" I will post some things about this, just to show some of his own anguish and own consequences, but that was not my original point"

Then withdraw the claims you made if you are not willing to provide evidence for them.

The message board is not here to provide a pulpit for your lectures. You make accusations, you need to support them directly or withdraw them according to board rules or be banned.

Edited September 4, 2014 by calmoriah

[zionslight]

Here are a few of their own words.  

 

 

Hyrum Sent a Letter Condemning Polygamy to Brethren on China Creek

As we have lately been credibly informed, that an Elder of the Church of Jesus Christ, of Latter-day Saints, by the name of Hiram Brown, has been preaching Polygamy, and other false and corrupt doctrines, in the county of Lapeer, state of Michigan. This is to notify him and the Church in general, that he has been cut off from the church, for his iniquity; and he is further notified to appear at the Special Conference, on the 6th of April next, to make answer to these charges.

JOSEPH SMITH, 
HYRUM SMITH, 
Presidents of said Church. 
(Times and Seasons 5 [February 1, 1844]: 423)

Richard Hewitt, who lived about ten miles south of Nauvoo, rode his horse to Nauvoo to meet with Joseph Smith. Since Joseph was in a meeting, Hyrum met with Hewitt and heard him report that some elders were preaching polygamy, and were declaring that it was being taught at Nauvoo. Hyrum immediately wrote a letter in which he denied that polygamy was being taught at Nauvoo, and threatened to bring anyone that he found teaching it before the High Council, take their ministerial license from them, and cut them off from the Church. Hyrum wrote:

Hyrum Cautioned Saints at Conference Not to Believe "all the lies"

Nauvoo, March 15,1844.

To the brethren of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latterday Saints, living on China Creek, in Hancock County, Greeting:—Whereas brother Richard Hewitt has called on me today, to know my views concerning some doctrines that are preached in your place, and states to me that some of your elders say, that a man having a certain priesthood, may have as many wives as he pleases, and that doctrine is taught here [at Nauvoo]: I say unto you that that man teaches false doctrine, for there is no such doctrine taught here; neither is there any such thing practised here. And any man that is found teaching privately or publicly any such doctrine, is culpable, and will stand a chance to be brought before the High Council, and lose his license and membership also: therefore he had better beware what he is about.... And as to the celestial glory, all will enter in and possess that kingdom that obey the gospel, and continue in faith in the Lord unto the end of his days....

I am 
Your obedient servant,
HYRUM SMITH. 
(Times and Seasons 5 [March 15, 1844]: 474)

The biggest question on the minds of many who attended the April 1844 Church Conference, was the question of whether or not there was any truth to the rumors that Joseph and Hyrum and other Church leaders were practicing polygamy. Hyrum was no doubt making reference to those rumors when he told the Saints, while preaching at Conference:

A certain good sister came to my house and she was troubled because she heard so many big things; she thought it weakened her faith. I told her she had too much faith; she believed too much; I will tell you how you may know whether the thing is true or not. When any come to you with a lie, you feel troubled; God will trouble you and will not approbate you in such belief; you had better get some antidote to get rid of it. Humble yourself before God, and ask him for his spirit; and pray to him to judge it for you. It is better not to have so much faith, than to have so much as to believe all the lies. Before this conference closes I want to get all the elders together. I shall make a proclamation: I want to take the line and axe, and hew you, and make you as straight as possible; I will make you as straight as a stretched line. Every elder that goes from Nauvoo to preach the gospel, if he preach any thing else we will silence him through the public print; I want all the elders to meet and to understand, and if they teach any thing but the pure truth we will call them home. (

Times and Seasons

 5 [August 1, 1844]: 598)

 

Elder Levi Graybill's Testimony

Elder Levi Graybill, who joined the Church in 1833, and was with the Saints at Kirtland, Ohio; Independence and Far West, Missouri; and at Nauvoo testified that he heard President Hyrum Smith speak against polygamy at the April 1844 Church Conference. Elder Graybill wrote:

I was present at the April conference in Nauvoo in 1844....

I was well acquainted with Joseph and Hyrum Smith, and most all of the early leaders of the church.... At the conference of April, 1844, Hyrum Smith said from the stand that some had been teaching spiritual wifery, which meant polygamy, and addressing the sisters he said: "If any man makes such a proposition to you, if you will put a dagger to his heart I will plead your cause in the day of judgment." (

Journal of History

 4 [January 1911]: 108)

There are so many statements, one would have to go and research them.

 

Joseph Smith had to fight this over and over 

 

 

I was at Far West, in Caldwell county, at the time the church was there. I went from there to Illinois, and I next went to Nauvoo. It was about 1840 if I recollect right. I held the position of teacher in the original church from September, 1832, until Joseph Smith's death in 1844. I performed the duties of teacher from the time I went to Nauvoo until 1844....

It was our duty in case we found anybody with more wives than one to report them to the President of the Teachers' Quorum. There were twenty-four in the Teachers' Quorum. It was an organized quorum, and our instructions were if we found any case of that kind to report it to the President of the Teachers' Quorum, and the president would report them to Hyrum Smith. That was the instruction that Brother Hyrum Smith gave in the quorum....

Now I don't mean to say that there was any such thing as polygamy at that time taught or being practiced for that matter, but it was about that time that John C. Bennett's secret wife system came to be heard of... and that was the reason that the instructions were given us, for [we] were told to search it out and find what there was to it if we could.... so I got after him, and followed him.... I followed him to the house there in Nauvoo where this secret wife business was practiced.... During the time that I was a teacher from 1832 up to 1844, there was no rule or law of the original church that permitted the practice or principle of polygamy. There was no such a law, I am sure....

Yes sir, after I reported John C. Bennett there was action taken on his case. He was cut off from the church for that offense.... Joseph Smith and Hyrum Smith never taught polygamy, and there was no revelation on polygamy or celestial marriage, or anything of the kind. The church was governed entirely as a monogamy church from 1832, at the time I became connected with it, up to the time of Joseph Smith's death.

There was a man by the name of [Hiram] Brown that taught that doctrine. He was notified by the church authorities, tried, and cut off from the church.... There was another man by the name of Durfy who went to La Harpe, Illinois, and he told the people that he thought the time would come when they would practice polygamy, or the same doctrine with reference to plural wives that David and Solomon did. That was what Durfy taught. That was reported to Hyrum Smith, and Hyrum Smith sat on a well curb and wrote a notice to him that such a doctrine was not to be taught in the church. I saw that letter, and it was a severe rebuke....

The letter I referred to ... is a letter that Hyrum Smith wrote and delivered to Mr. Hewitt, to take to those brethren out where this man was preaching this doctrine, or telling the people that the doctrine of plural marriage would sometime be taught in the church. I saw the letter at the time it was read to me. I saw the handwriting, but I did not read it myself.... Mr. Hewitt read it to me, and I saw the writing, the same as if you had a letter opened there and I should see it. I saw the writing when Mr. Hewitt was reading it to me. The full name of the man who read it was Richard Hewitt.... Mr. Hewitt said it was Hyrum Smith's handwriting. He told me that Hyrum Smith wrote it and gave it to him. (

Complainant's Abstract of Pleading and Evidence, in the Circuit Court of the United States, Western District of Missouri, Western Division, at Kansas City: The Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, Complainant, vs. The Church of Christ at Independence, Missouri.... Respondents

. [Lamoni, Iowa: Herald Publishing House and Bindery, 1893]: 190–191,192–193)

Fortunately, Hyrum made a copy of the letter which he gave to Richard Hewitt and had it published in the Times and Seasons for March 15,1844, and that important document is available for study today.

Doctor Josiah Ells' Dying Testimony

The testimony of Doctor Josiah Ells is very important, for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has officially alleged that Dr. Ells' sister, Hannah Ells, was one of Joseph's plural wives. Joseph, of course, denied he had plural wives, and Hannah Ells never claimed to be Joseph's wife. Doctor Ells was one of the Prophet's trusted friends, and was one of those men who accompanied Joseph and Hyrum to Carthage to surrender to civil authorities. On the way to Carthage, Doctor Ells heard a conversation between Joseph and Hyrum that made a great impression upon him. The home of Dr. Ells and his wife, Eliza, was very close to the Mansion House, and according to Josiah the two couples visited frequently in one another's homes. Andrew Jenson of the LDS Church published that Josiah's sister, Hannah Ells (who may have lived with Josiah and Eliza), was one of Joseph's plural wives (see Andrew Jenson, The Historical Record 6 [salt Lake City, Utah, May 1887]: 234). Doctor Ells' dying testimony was that Joseph Smith was not a polygamist, and that those who said he had plural wives were not telling the truth. Dr. Ells died at the home of RLDS Apostle Gomer T. Griffiths. Apostle Griffiths wrote of Dr. Ells' deathbed testimony:

Brother Ells was ordained an [RLDS] apostle in April, 1865, at Piano, Illinois, and he continued in said office for over twenty years. He prosecuted many important missions, went to England, was sent to the Utah Mission, and traveled in all the Eastern States, as well as the Central and many of the Western States.

During his last sickness Brother Ells told me that his family were next-door neighbors of Joseph the Prophet, and that they were very intimate with each other, visiting back and forth almost every day among the families, and he himself was closely associated with the Seer in church affairs. "He [Joseph] came into my house very often, and I visited him in his house. Therefore, do you suppose if he taught and practiced polygamy that my family and I would not have discovered it?" said Brother Ells. He told me time and again that there was not a word of truth in the statement made by the Utah people that Joseph Smith was the author of polygamy and that Emma Smith knew it to be a fact.

Brother Ells was one of the brethren who accompanied the party consisting of the Seer, his brother Hyrum, and a few others, to Carthage. The heat being intense, the party stopped at a well by the roadside for a cool drink of water. On his deathbed, he told me of the following conversation between the Prophet and his brother. The Seer said, "We must go and lay our heads on the sod, or they will go into the city and murder the women and children," adding that it would not be necessary for his brother Hyrum to die and for him to return to the city. But Hyrum answered him, "But I must die, for the mob will not be satisfied until they shed my blood. Brother Joseph, if you die I will die, too. I am going with you, and if they kill you they will have to kill me." Brother Ells returned to the city [of Nauvoo] that same day and it was the last time he saw the two brothers alive, whom he loved so dearly. (The Saints 'Herald [August 2, 1921], 738–739)

 

 

Joseph Smith addressed each and every accusation.  It would take a lot  to print them all here.  You can find all of his original words in the TImes and Seasons, including on the church site.

 

Many people spoke up Apostle John Page who is spoken of in the Doctrine and Covenants who said Joseph never taught such a thing.

 

The Lord does not work in controversy. His words are not in secret, but are open and plain to us all.  That is the lesson.  It is why we have His Word, not everyone else's that can totally cause confusion if you do not work through each book, each statement, each opinion to see why they were saying what they were, was there a spirit, did they have truth, and ultimately how does it compare with the Lord's words via His Scriptures.

 

There is not one instance in all of history, Old Testament, New Testament, Book of Mormon, Joseph Smith's writings, Doctrine and Covenants, Pearl of Great Price, where he commanded a man to take more than one wife to cause any confusion as to it being from Him.  He did allow it, by the inference in Jacob 2, but this time He would not.  They suffered tremendously until they gave it up.

 

The Lord gives pleasing commandments and words, it never hurts, it always brings peace and harmony between a man and a woman.  We are commanded to be one, and cleave to none else.  This is the way the Lord designed it, and He has forbade anything else.  Joseph Smith taught this regardless of what Brigham Young and others did.

 

They lost their prophet and they did not build the tower, and did not establish Zion, and now we must establish it by blood unless we repeat some of the same things and miss the Lord's words.

 

[zionslight]

Which words are you seeking?

[JLHPROF]

I was just pointing out that to know Joseph Smith, you must read his original writings, not what anyone said about him. To know Brigham Young, read his, and what he says about putting a javelin through the heart of one of his wives, he was ruthless in some things, and terrible consequences happened ie Mountain Meadows Massacre.

 

 

Just because this makes us uncomfortable doesn't change the gospel principle behind this teaching.  We are viewing it with prejudiced eyes.

 

 

William Smith was the patriarch of the church at the time, and he openly spoke about his brother and that the doctrine that the other brethren were teaching was not correct, and he was the Patriarch. 

 

You mean a known adulterer, who Joseph had to force the quorum to accept, who physically fought with Joseph, and who was eventually excommunicated and became an apostate?  His word is not worth much.

 

 

But if you do not really see the insanity and death that this caused, you will miss the Lord's reasoning that He commanded them to have one wive, and if He, the Lord did not command them, they should hearken to "these things" which was the whoredom.  We have simply misread this verse, just like a few others.

 

We have a work to do, not to contend but to enlighten and lift each other up.  I only speak of these things, to show that we are clueless sometimes now, and even then, they suffered death and heartache as the Lord tells us because of their contentions one with another.

 

Our role is different, but we better know this and take it seriously so that we can make it through what the Lord has said will happen because we are in a state of Sodom and Gomorran as a nation, and we need to know what is going to happen, and how we can make it through to Zion.

 

And here we go back to the same old argument.

In Jacob 2 God banned polygamy because the men were adulterous, wife abusing, evil men.  Add to that the fact that the BOM society was an Aaronic society and Eternal polygamous marriage is a Melchizedek ordinance.

God has NEVER banned polygamy from the righteous.  D&C 132 is as valid a scripture as Jacob 2, since they both came from the Prophet Joseph Smith by revelation. 

[zionslight]

Brigham Young traveling alone?

 

 

The High Council met at Kirtland on February 20, 1834, and its record states:

The council also decided that Elder Brigham Young should travel alone it being his own choice ... and that there should be a general conference held in Saco, in the state of Maine, on the 13th day of June, 1834. (

Times and Seasons

 6 [November 1, 1845]: 1022–1023; RLDS 

History of the Church

 1:434–435)

Why did Brigham insist upon traveling alone in an area where adulterous temptations were sure to befall any lonely elder?

The report for the June 1834 Church conference at Saco stated that "a numerous concourse had assembled" (Evening and Morning Star 2 [August 1834]: 181). Although Brigham did not go to the 1834 conference, he was on a mission to the eastern states from May to September 1835 (Leonard J. Arrington, Brigham Young: American Moses, Appendix A, 413).

Brigham continued to work in that area and he reported that he also had been to a conference in Maine on August 12, 13, and 14, 1836, where fifty-two members of the Saco Branch attended (Messenger and Advocate 2 [september 1836]: 381–382). 

 

 

The Church opened its mission in England in 1837 by sending apostles and elders to conduct missionary work there. The brethren were there for long periods of time without their wives. The mission was very successful and thousands joined the Church. The apostles were idolized by their new followers, and temptations naturally followed. To make matters worse, polygamy was a common topic of discussion in both England and America at the time, and was being practiced in both countries. Under these circumstances, Brigham declared "the doctrine" of polygamy was revealed to him in a vision and revelations while in England:

While we were in England, (in 1839 and 40), I think the Lord manifested to me by vision and his Spirit things [concerning polygamy] that I did not then understand. I never opened my mouth to any one concerning them, until I returned to Nauvoo; Joseph had never mentioned this; there had never been a thought of it in the Church that I ever knew anything about at that time, but I 

had this 

for myself, and I kept it to myself. And when I returned home, and Joseph revealed those things to me, then I understood the reflections that were upon my mind while in England. But this (communication with Joseph on the subject) was not until after I had told him what I understood—this was in 1841. The revelation [section 132 in the Utah Doctrine and Covenants] was given in 1843, but the doctrine was 

revealed

 before this. (

The Messenger of the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints

 1 [June 1875]: 29; 

Deseret News

, July 1, 1874)

On August 24, 1891, Seventy Thomas Stafford wrote a letter to Seventy Gomer R. Wells telling of improper conduct which he had witnessed on the part of Brigham Young, both in England and in Nauvoo. Stafford wrote:

But I am fully convinced, as I was then, that Brigham (Young), was in adultery in Manchester, England, in the fall, winter and spring of 1840 and 1841. Elizabeth Mayer is the person with whom Brigham was then committing adultery. My reasons are these: We lived next door to her, under the same roof.... This Elizabeth Mayer had a father and a brother who were gardners; they took their dinners, as they worked a long piece from home. After they had left for work, Brigham would step into the house, she would then lock the door and pull down the blinds and curtains, which to me was strange. He never came to see our folks, although not five steps apart; and when he left he was always in a hurry, and she never came to the door with him when he was leaving.

This same thing occurred in Nauvoo with a woman and Brigham. Her name was Greenough; her son was about my age, was always driven out when Brigham came, the door was shut and the curtains lowered. I was puzzled to know why he acted so, if he had a good heart, and was engaged in the business of teaching the truth, why drive the boy out? Why not come also and see my mother, only a few steps apart?

I am now, and was then, satisfied that he was in adultery, in Manchester, England. The seeds of polygamy was sown, and Brigham the sower.... I was present at a meeting in a grove [at Nauvoo], about three weeks before Joseph and Hyrum were murdered, when Joseph made a public statement in the presence of three thousand people, that polygamy was being practiced secretly by some; that it had crept into the church secretly and must be put down speedily or the church would be driven from Nauvoo.

I am satisfied that Joseph was not in favor of it (polygamy) at all. Would swear to all I have stated. (R. C. Evans, 

Autobiography of Elder R. C. Evans

, 334–335)

These are statements just like statements of those who claimed Joseph taught it.

 

Brigham Young was traveling alone, and Joseph did council for this not to happen, just as he warned those who stayed at Hawn's Mill.

[zionslight]

At the time of William Smith's words, he was not yet an adulterer.  This was later in his life.  He did end up practicing "polygamy" or adultery, but he did not attribute it to Joseph Smith, and he was the Church's Patriarch.  

 

He was speaking in behalf of the other council that had equal say according to the layout of the church.  He also was a hot head, and had to ask forgiveness from Joseph as we know for hitting him.

[JLHPROF]

 

Here are a few of their own words.  

 

 

Hyrum Sent a Letter Condemning Polygamy to Brethren on China Creek

As we have lately been credibly informed, that an Elder of the Church of Jesus Christ, of Latter-day Saints, by the name of Hiram Brown, has been preaching Polygamy, and other false and corrupt doctrines, in the county of Lapeer, state of Michigan. This is to notify him and the Church in general, that he has been cut off from the church, for his iniquity; and he is further notified to appear at the Special Conference, on the 6th of April next, to make answer to these charges.

JOSEPH SMITH, 

HYRUM SMITH, 

Presidents of said Church. 

(Times and Seasons 5 [February 1, 1844]: 423)

Richard Hewitt, who lived about ten miles south of Nauvoo, rode his horse to Nauvoo to meet with Joseph Smith. Since Joseph was in a meeting, Hyrum met with Hewitt and heard him report that some elders were preaching polygamy, and were declaring that it was being taught at Nauvoo. Hyrum immediately wrote a letter in which he denied that polygamy was being taught at Nauvoo, and threatened to bring anyone that he found teaching it before the High Council, take their ministerial license from them, and cut them off from the Church. Hyrum wrote:

Hyrum Cautioned Saints at Conference Not to Believe "all the lies"

Nauvoo, March 15,1844.

To the brethren of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latterday Saints, living on China Creek, in Hancock County, Greeting:—Whereas brother Richard Hewitt has called on me today, to know my views concerning some doctrines that are preached in your place, and states to me that some of your elders say, that a man having a certain priesthood, may have as many wives as he pleases, and that doctrine is taught here [at Nauvoo]: I say unto you that that man teaches false doctrine, for there is no such doctrine taught here; neither is there any such thing practised here. And any man that is found teaching privately or publicly any such doctrine, is culpable, and will stand a chance to be brought before the High Council, and lose his license and membership also: therefore he had better beware what he is about.... And as to the celestial glory, all will enter in and possess that kingdom that obey the gospel, and continue in faith in the Lord unto the end of his days....

I am 

Your obedient servant,

HYRUM SMITH. 

(Times and Seasons 5 [March 15, 1844]: 474)

 

Simple plausible deniability.  Hyrum had 5 wives when he died, included the very well documented marriage for time to his wife Mary's sister Mercy after her dead husband appeared to the prophet.

 

Doctor Josiah Ells' Dying Testimony 

 

Apostate and RLDS Apostle - of course he said Joseph never practiced polygamy.

 

Many people spoke up Apostle John Page who is spoken of in the Doctrine and Covenants who said Joseph never taught such a thing.

 

Apostate and follower of James Strang, himself a polygamist.

 

Do we have any reputable testimonies that don't contradict clearly established historical fact?

Because I'm sorry, but William Smith, John Page, and a bunch of RLDS authorities do NOT provide credible historical evidence.

Oh, and the RLDS quotes you provide about Brigham Young's adultery are as completely nonsense as the folk tales Brigham allowed to be spread about Emma.  This is just Brigham and Emma's churches taking swipes at each other.  This is NOT history.

 

There is just no valid evidence to your claims and your scriptural connections are very nebulous.

Edited September 4, 2014 by JLHPROF

[Robert F. Smith]

Simple.  Because Joseph despite his lack of education, could read.

And as I've had to point out to people a million times, Jacob 2 does NOT forbid polygamy.  It tells of a specific time when wicked men were living polygamy and making it an abomination and God withdrew his permission. 

Jacob 2 is not a bunch of good men having polygamy revoked because God didn't approve of it.  Jacob 2 is a bunch of whoremonger wife abusers losing the privilege of living polygamy by turning it into an abomination (think Warren Jeffs). 

 

If we want to consider ourselves in a Jacob 2 situation then we should acknowledge that it is our own weaknesses that put us there.

 

And I'm sure Joseph saw that.

By your lights, of course, Father Abraham (and other of the Patriarchs) were gross sinners due their practice of polygyny.  You cite Jacob 2 but forget Jacob 3:5,

 

they have not forgotten the commandments of the Lord, which was given unto our father—that they should have save it were one wife, and concubines they should have none, and there should not be whoredoms committed among them.

 

In other words, Lehi had received a special commandment to practice monogamy only (the RLDS 1908 edition used plural "fathers" even though not justified by the P manuscript evidence, as verified by vs 6,and 2:27,35 which show that singular "commandment" was intended, and that Lehi was the recipient).

Jacob 2:30 limits that commandment:

 

For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things.

 

No value judgement on polygyny was made, and it could be practiced or not as desired by the Lord.

[zionslight]

D&C 132 is not just as valid of a scripture as Jacob 2.  The Book of Mormon is from the Lord directly, read the beginning of D&C 132, they do not know when or where it came from.  You will not find this in any of Joseph Smith's revelations.  Isaac did not have more than one wife, David did more to offend to Lord than just kill Uriah, Emma was an elect lady and not to be damned. This came years after Joseph Smith and is not attributed to him.

 

The Doctrine and Covenants went through much changes.  The brethren added, took away, this has always been a controversial subject and has led people away from the church who have seen the changed in a lot of the D&C.

 

Jacob 2 spells it out in totality.  The Lord is establishing a righteous branch.  He commands the men to only have one wife, and that they err in justifying as the brethren later did in introduced polygamy, by the writings of old.

 

How can we keep on saying Joseph Smith's own words do not matter.  His revelations have come out, every single one is there EXCEPT D&C C 132, who it was said was given mainly from William Clayton, a polygamist.

 

The Lord is the author of the Book of Mormon, the men were the authors of the other.  Joseph turned much of this over to others to write his words.  These are not his words, and is filled with much error, there are some good things in there, but not most of it saying that the men could sin and still be saved. It is in complete contrast with Joseph Smith's words and the Book of Mormon and the Bible.

[Robert F. Smith]

...........................................................................

 

 the BOM society was an Aaronic society and Eternal polygamous marriage is a Melchizedek ordinance.

....................................................................   

What is your evidence that the Book of Mormon society was limited to the Aaronic Priesthood?

Was Jacob an Aaronic high priest?  At the temple.

[zionslight]

We can say the same for those that claimed Joseph did have more than one wife and look at their backgrounds.  Again, put in joseph smith fought polygamy and read several wonderful sites that go back to original documentation.

 

  Again, we will have to go back into history to show this.  

 

I do not desire to contend with you.  I can join in a discussion, but I am not going to take over this as I am new, can only post after 25 posts, funny they may all be here.

 

We can go through all these points, but it will take time, and if it is for a purpose great, if this has been hashed out, I do not seek to change opinions in the manner, only to show error so we do not err on other things that we should be getting.

 

Hyrum and Joseph died fighting against polygamy and never could have been prophets (without being removed) by doing things in secret and by lying for the Lord, as was taught later on in history.

 

The Lord speaks plain, Satan did everything he could to destroy the church and people, and look where we are, heading into one of the most incredible times, both the cleanse that is coming, and Zion.  There has not been another time like it, and we must know the Lord's words and the Book of Mormon, not men fighting one with another on non-saving material.

 

We are in trouble according to Isaiah, Nephi, and the Lord.

[JLHPROF]

D&C 132 is not just as valid of a scripture as Jacob 2.  The Book of Mormon is from the Lord directly, read the beginning of D&C 132, they do not know when or where it came from.  You will not find this in any of Joseph Smith's revelations.  Isaac did not have more than one wife, David did more to offend to Lord than just kill Uriah, Emma was an elect lady and not to be damned. This came years after Joseph Smith and is not attributed to him.

 

The Doctrine and Covenants went through much changes.  The brethren added, took away, this has always been a controversial subject and has led people away from the church who have seen the changed in a lot of the D&C.

 

Jacob 2 spells it out in totality.  The Lord is establishing a righteous branch.  He commands the men to only have one wife, and that they err in justifying as the brethren later did in introduced polygamy, by the writings of old.

 

How can we keep on saying Joseph Smith's own words do not matter.  His revelations have come out, every single one is there EXCEPT D&C C 132, who it was said was given mainly from William Clayton, a polygamist.

 

The Lord is the author of the Book of Mormon, the men were the authors of the other.  Joseph turned much of this over to others to write his words.  These are not his words, and is filled with much error, there are some good things in there, but not most of it saying that the men could sin and still be saved. It is in complete contrast with Joseph Smith's words and the Book of Mormon and the Bible.

 

Darn it, the rep point button is too close to the quote button sometimes...

[JLHPROF]

Hyrum and Joseph died fighting against polygamy and never could have been prophets (without being removed) by doing things in secret and by lying for the Lord, as was taught later on in history.

 

 

Hyrum had 5 wives when he died.  Joseph had 30 plus.  That is proven historical fact.  We can debate what kind of wives they were or what the sealings performed meant, but they had these wives.

To say otherwise is to completely denigrate these women's reputation.  Women like Eliza R. Snow, Mary Fielding Smith, and other great and faithful women.  I will not accept silly theories that have only the reminiscences of apostates and breakoff sect leaders as evidence.  That's bad history.

[JLHPROF]

What is your evidence that the Book of Mormon society was limited to the Aaronic Priesthood?

Was Jacob an Aaronic high priest?  At the temple.

 

Oh, it wasn't always just Aaronic (Alma 13 makes that VERY clear).  But Jacob 4:5 makes it clear they were operating under the Mosaic (Aaronic) authority at that time:

 

 

Behold, they believed in Christ and worshiped the Father in his name, and also we worship the Father in his name. And for this intent we keep the law of Moses, it pointing our souls to him; and for this cause it is sanctified unto us for righteousness, even as it was accounted unto Abraham in the wilderness to be obedient unto the commands of God in offering up his son Isaac, which is a similitude of God and his Only Begotten Son.

 

So yes, it was probably a Mosaic temple with Jacob as High Priest.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

Hyrum had 5 wives when he died.  Joseph had 30 plus.  That is proven historical fact.  We can debate what kind of wives they were or what the sealings performed meant, but they had these wives.

To say otherwise is to completely denigrate these women's reputation.  Women like Eliza R. Snow, Mary Fielding Smith, and other great and faithful women.  I will not accept silly theories that have only the reminiscences of apostates and breakoff sect leaders as evidence.  That's bad history.

Feelin' the love, baby.

What about Emma's reputation?

Edited September 4, 2014 by BookofMormonLuvr

[zionslight]

Let me try to not be nebulous.  Jacob was commanded by the Lord to call the people especially the men to repentance on two main things.  Pride and money, which was abominable before the Lord, and the more serious crime of polygamy and seeking to do as those of old had done.  Then Jacob gives the commandment of the Lord.

 

"But the word of God burdens me because of your grosser crimes.  (Note this was D&C 101 the doctrine of Marriage while Joseph was still alive, and not replaced by D&C 132 after Joseph's death, but WAS the official doctrine of the church.  It gets no plainer than that, because they were accused of the "crime" of polygamy they are setting the record straight, and signed it.)

 

This people begin to wax in iniquity; they understand NOT the scriptures, for they seek to excuse themselves in committing whoredoms, because of the things which were written concerning David, and Solomon his son.

 

"Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines WHICH THING... (itself, not just David killing Uriah, as D&C 132 states which again was not the words of Joseph)  *****ALSO note the phrase these things. It is going to be very important in a few verses that was used to misconstrue or wrest the Lord's words, that taken in the entire context explains itself as is the pattern of the Lord, and not man.

 

"was abominable before me, saith the Lord.  (This clearly states that it was abominable then, not just now, see the Lord's phraseology.  He ddi not say "is".

 

"Wherefore, thus saith the Lord, I have led this people (whom Jacob is talking to) out of the land of Jerusalem, by the power of mine arm, that I might raise up unto me a righteous branch from the fruit of the loins of Joseph.    

 

26.  Wherefore, I the Lord God, will NOT suffer (or allow) that this people shall do like unto them of old.

 

27.  Wherefore, my brethren hear me, and hearken to the word of the Lord: For there shall not ANY man among you have save it be one wife; and concubines he shall have none.  (totally changing what even Abraham did back then)

 

28.   For I, the Lord God, delight in the chastity of women.  And whoredoms are an abomination before me; thus saith the Lord of Hosts.

 

29.  Wherefore, this people SHALL keep my commandments, saith the Lord of Hosts, or cursed be the land for their sakes.  ( This is where you must go on and finish reading Jacob 3, which continues and shows that the Lamanites kept only one commandment given, which the Nephites were breaking, and that was to have only one wife, and to love her and their children.)

 

30.  For it I will, (raise up a righteous branch) saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me.  (meaning His seed, His branch, His people) I will command my people (through Jacob telling them to have only one wife because if He did not command them, they would hearken unto "these things" again word link look back and see what the Lord is referring to. These things are the abominations.

 

"otherwise they shall hearken unto these things.,"  And then the Lord goes on to explain about the sorrow, etc to the women whom the Lord delights in and it continues again in verse 34, refers to "these things" as the abomination.

 

Some have tried to make this verse read completely the opposite, as they do D&C 49, which talks about abstaining from meat (only for an example)

 

"Ye have done these things which ye ought not to have done."

 

Again, some have said the Lord is saying, if I decide to have more people, then I will command my people to do "these things", which He did not.  It would be "this thing" again of polygamy.  The Lord is always clarifying Himself, making it plain.

 

And here comes the second witness.  In Doctrine and Covenants 49 Joseph Smith is commanded now like Jacob to have the doctrine, WHICH THEY DID and signed, into the church as the Article on Marriage the official church doctrine, that a man should have one wife, that the earth can reach its measure completely dispelling again the need for the Lord to repopulate the earth with more than one wife.

 

All the other stuff gets messy but you can get through each and every wife of Joseph and Hyrum to see that it was done after they died, or rumors by men who believed in lying for the Lord and in this doctrine.

 

The Lord speaks plainly and does not change words.

 

Is this better?

[zionslight]

Eliza Snow signed the same Article on Marriage, and firmly believed in saying what Brigham Young would have her say.  Let's go through each wife.

 

Fanny Alger.  We say this was the first plural wife of Joseph Smith.  Fanny Alger and her sister were taken into the home of Joseph and Emma.  Oliver Cowdrey was away and horrified of the rumor that he heard when he approached Joseph.

 

This was apparently again notice the word, what happened from William McClellin's testimony who was an apostate and hated Joseph Smith, that he saw them in the barn and Joseph was married.  Again all hearsay, and incredibly terrible if it was true.  Fanny's family snuck out of town afterward.  This is the rumor that Joseph had to quelch.  To have this as one of his wives, is again taking someone's word for this instead of Joseph.

 

We can look at Nancy Rigdon, who had to take it back as well when confronted. That whole story is a long one.  We can go through each and every one, including Eliza R Snow, who claimed later she was the wife of Joseph, but he never claimed this.

 

Keep in mind, truly, the brethren FIRMLY believed in this doctrine and that you could change or alter some of words and history, and that it was ok to lie for the Lord, as was the story of Emma pushing Eliza down the stairs, totally false, as is the story of an angel coming to Joseph again coming from a third party source which can not even be used in Court.

 

Joseph was taken to Court and it is in the depositions most of this.  Do you want to take the time to go through each one, if people want to do this here, I would be happy to go through them.  It just adds to the confusion at first, but you are left with two things to believe, Joseph Smith, or a third party person after the fact that Joseph is dead.

 

It is clear that while he was alive he fought this continually, to the day he died.

[zionslight]

[JLHPROF]

Feelin' the love, baby.

What about Emma's reputation?

 

Sorry, but as I mentioned in my other post - Emma's Church said bad things about Brigham.  Brigham's Church said bad things about Emma.  None of this should be used as historical evidence that polygamy was or wasn't lived by the prophet.

[Robert F. Smith]

zionslight said:

Robert, I have read the same material...Joseph Smith's son also almost came to the same conclusion that his father may have practiced such a thing, but he makes it clear that if he did, then he would have gone against his own words and he knew his father was a good man.  Joseph Smith III was 12, and knew his father and mother and says that at no time did his father have another wife, and Emma's own words state this.

If that is so, zion, why not answer Richard Howard's specific claims (and the RLDS First Presidency claims agreeing with Howard) -- rather than simply burying us in the excess verbiage which you have cut and pasted from tendentious sources?

 

Your claims read like traditional RLDS claims in any case.  Why?  Aren't you actually a refugee from the RLDS transition into the Community of Christ?

 

......................................................................

Those evil dogmas must have made a deep impression on the apostles, for of the twelve who were in the apostolic quorum at the time of Joseph's death, at least eleven became polygamists!

See my post #135

[zionslight]

Just a tidbit on William McClellin, the ONLY witness for the so called adulterous affair in the barn, and Fanny Alger.  

 

Following his excommunication, McLellin played an active role in mobbing and robbing the Saints. Joseph was taken to Liberty Jail, and Emma returned home to find that she had been robbed of everything. A contemporary journal records that McLellin “went into brother Joseph’s house and commenced searching over his things . . . [and] took all his [jewelry] out of Joseph’s box and took a lot of his cloths [sic] and in fact, plundered the house and took the things off.” When Emma asked McLellin why he did this, McLellin replied, “Because I can.” This theft affected Emma profoundly. She received word that Joseph was suffering greatly from the cold in Liberty Jail, and he asked her to bring quilts and bedding. “Sister Emma cried and said that they had taken all of her bed cloths [sic] except one quilt and blanket and what could she do?” Emma sought legal redress but recovered nothing.

McLellin’s offenses against Joseph extended beyond robbing his family:

While Joseph was in prison at Richmond, Missouri, McLellin, who was a large and active man, went to the sheriff and asked for the privilege of flogging the Prophet. Permission was granted on condition that Joseph would fight. The sheriff made known to Joseph McLellin’s earnest request, to which Joseph consented, if his irons were taken off. McLellin then refused to fight unless he could have a club, to which Joseph was perfectly willing; but the sheriff would not allow them to fight on such unequal terms.

If we accept the late, secondhand accounts of McLellin as reliable, we must accept that Emma made her (only?) admission of Joseph’s plural marriages to a man who had robbed her and her family and had saucily insisted that he did so merely because they could do nothing to stop him. While her husband froze in Liberty Jail, Emma had to worry about her children going cold because McLellin had stolen their bedding.

It seems an enormous leap of faith in McLellin—who clearly does not deserve such faith—to presume both that he was truthful and that Emma disclosed humiliating details about Joseph and Fanny to him of all people. Todd Compton acknowledges that McLellin may have “‘bent’ the truth in this case,” but if the account is false, the truth has not been bent but shattered.^[4]

 

[zionslight]

No, Brigham did not just say bad things about Emma.  They took everything she had.  Brigham Young also spoke ill against Joseph Smith's mother, and banned her book in Utah.  This was the contending the Lord spoke about.  Emma claimed to the end that her husband did not practice polygamy.   Brigham Young and others took over a church where the leader was killed from them not heeding his council.  But the Lord took the church through it, and explains this is Jacob 5, to the state we are in now, with no good fruit.

 

Again, is this the Lord we know that has us state openly that we do one thing, and secretly live a different life?  There were reasons for all of the deaths and hard times the saints went through.  The Lord tells us, and again then as we liken them to us, through Isaiah and the Book of Mormon tells us that if we do the same things, we suffer the same consequences.

[zionslight]

Robert, I enjoy your posts.  I am not trying to bury this.  We can address this and Joseph Smith's son when he came to the same conclusion.  What  I was looking at was Joseph Smith's words, not these men.  They changed a lot of the history, and so the accounts are derived all from the same source, except Joseph Smith's mouth.

 

These men also believed in Blood Atonement and covering up for their leaders, and we suffered.  We can address this, if you want, I keep trying to lead this to a different direction, truly, I do not desire to be attacked in any way, but to expound on the Lord's words and how we suffered.  If Joseph did do this, then he died saying one thing and doing another, which some believed, I am not one of them after spending almost 7 years studying this.  It could not just be laid out in this thread, I read thousands and thousands of pages of documents journals, etc, Compton's book, Quinn's, the anti mormon literature, and then Joseph's words and the scriptures.  You can feel the difference between the Light and Dark.

 

Joseph says that his name will be known for good and bad.  It is hard, I know because some people say they got it directly form Joseph's mouth, but every time I look into their lives and journals, they are convicted of some kind of similar thing of speaking two different things, only Joseph spoke one and only one. The rest is hearsay.

 

I will go back to your posts,

 

And are you the Robert Smith that wrote the book?

[zionslight]

Emma's reputation with the men that hated her, or the Emma that the Lord spoke about in D&C 25, calling her the Elect Lady, and saying she was to do the hymns.  There was real jealousy on part of the men that did not get selected for the hymns, that is a whole other story.

 

Emma was the one that kept the bodies intact, and yes she married again to a drunk, and helped raise his daughter.  What was her choice?  To follow the very people that despised her openly.  Emma was astonishingly an elect lady and it is because of her we still have an inheritance there, where Zion is suppose to be built.

 

The Lord tells us about Emma, D&C 132 is a complete contradiction to the revelation that Joseph got from the Lord.  Read about her sons they were amazing individuals that tried to keep the church going, but the Lord could not split the church, he kept it according to Jacob 5.  When I post something I can post about this, and it can answer some of these questions.  I still need 25 posts you know, seems like I am getting there lol.

 

I have only good will for all those responding, but I have spent more time than most on this subject and with that have come to know the difference between the Lord's language and man's, and we are to listen to the Lord, not rely on the arm of flesh EVER.

[mormonnewb]

False.  Objectively false.

 

Methinks thou dost protest too much!

You overstate the sad fact that there are indeed some yokels out there who believe that putting faith in a fallible person is a good idea.  Brother Brigham used to object to that sort of nonsense, and so did Joseph Smith.  Most recently, President Uchtdorf also made it clear that

 

"to be perfectly frank, there have been times when members or leaders in the Church have simply made mistakes.  There may have been things said or done that were not in harmony with our values, principles, or doctrine.

"I suppose the Church would only be perfect, if it were run by perfect beings.  God is perfect and his doctrine is pure.  But he works through us, his imperfect children.  And imperfect people make mistakes."   D. Uchtdorf, October 5, 2013, LDS General Conference, Ensign, 43/11 (Nov 2013):22.

 

One might well ask what part of fallible these yokels don't understand, and they will cite D&C 1:38, as though that were a relevant answer.  I am no happier than you are with Mormons who put their faith in the arm of flesh and have no clue what true faith might be.  But what did you really expect?  And why make the silly claim that everybody does it?  I've been around awhile, Brother, and I just don't hear that kind of nonsense that often.  When I do, I object.  I hope that you do the same.

 

Meantime, please don't make the false claim that most Mormons are yokels.  They aren't.  Their faith is in God and in His Son Jesus Christ.  They listen respectfully to counsel from priesthood authority, whether their bishop or Church president, but that is never because they believe in the false doctrine of infallibility, but out of respect for the priesthood office.  They know that only by confirmation of that counsel by the Holy Spirit may they have any real confidence in that counsel.  Brigham Young made that point abundantly clear:

 

I am more afraid that this people have so much confidence in their leaders that they will not inquire for themselves of God whether they are led by him. I am fearful they settle down in a state of blind self-security, trusting their eternal destiny in the hands of their leaders with a reckless confidence that in itself would thwart the purposes of God in their salvation, and weaken that influence they could give to their leaders, did they know for themselves, by the revelations of Jesus, that they are led in the right way. Let every man and woman know, by the whispering of the Spirit of God to themselves, whether their leaders are walking in the path the Lord dictates, or not. This has been my exhortation continually. (B. Young, Journal of Discourses, IX:150)

 

If you don't believe it, take a poll.

 

I agree that the Church "officially" teaches that we follow HF and Christ; and not its fallible leaders.

 

But, IN PRACTICE, we seem to stress obedience TO the Brethren.  After all, we don't teach our babies to sing, "Follow the Holy Spirit."  From a very early age, we teach them to have a testimony of HF and Christ that is coupled with a testimony that "President Thompson is a true prophet" (the most adorable slip-up I've ever heard from one of our beautiful little ones).  From a practical standpoint, how could they possibly differentiate between God and the prophet?  And they certainly don't have the Biblical knowledge or maturity to make such decisions, so we urge them to rely on the Brethren.

 

And don't get me wrong.  This makes sense.  In fact, it's something that I constantly try to instill into my children -- Follow the Daddy.  My boys simply don't have enough practical knowledge or maturity to make optimal choices about their education or recreational activities, so I try to convince them to rely upon my (marginally) superior knowledge about these things.  However, at some point, I expect that they will learn to follow THEMSELVES.

 

Perhaps, it's just my VERY limited experience, but there are some saints who don't seem to have made that leap.  For instance, one of our very best sisters chimes into most SS school discussions with "It's easy.  Just follow the Prophet."  I don't know how many others agree with her, but I do know that no one ever gets up and says, "Well, it's really not that simple.  Brigham Young once said, 'I am more afraid ...'"

 

Of course, this is due in part to the fact that she is, in John's parlance, "The Sister Whom Everybody Loved."  No one in their right mind (or even me) is going to openly contradict an elderly woman who constantly demonstrates almost unlimited grace and kindness to others.  However, even the biggest jerk in the ward expressed obedience to the Prophet, I can't imagine that I'd get much pushback.

 

And such a sentiment doesn't seem to ever hurt anyone in "moving up" in the Church.  One of the members of our stake presidency speaks about "strict obedience" at just about every opportunity.  I don't imagine that this has ever been counted as a "strike" against him when Church leaders were considering him for the various "upper level" callings he's held throughout the years.  After all, who wouldn't want to have a subordinate who will do what you tell him to do?

 

So even if strict obedience to the Brethren is not taught "officially," a reasonably intelligent person (and even me) will learn pretty quickly that it NEVER hurts.