Ok There Seems To Be A Problem With Polygamy In The Church's Past

[ERayR]

Yeah, what if you are going to share your wife with several husbands???

 

Yeah what if?  Frank Herbert wrote a book on that theme called White Plague(I believe).  Those of feminism persuasion probably won't like it.  However, it is a well written examination of the subject.

[Calm]

If Joseph hadn't speculated about which church to join and then decided to pray about it we wouldn't be here.

If Joseph hadn't speculated about the necessity of baptism and then asked about it we wouldn't have the priesthood or baptism.

If Joseph hadn't speculated about the polygamy of Abraham, Solomon etc we wouldn't have D&C 132.

 

Speculation is 100% necessary in the gospel, as long as like you say, it's not taught as fact.

I don't see Joseph wondering and going to God with his questions the same as haing endless conversations that go nowhere on a message board. Anyone who wants to do what Joseph did...that's exactly what they should do in my book.

[Alan]

Simple.  Because Joseph despite his lack of education, could read.

And as I've had to point out to people a million times, Jacob 2 does NOT forbid polygamy.  It tells of a specific time when wicked men were living polygamy and making it an abomination and God withdrew his permission. 

Jacob 2 is not a bunch of good men having polygamy revoked because God didn't approve of it.  Jacob 2 is a bunch of whoremonger wife abusers losing the privilege of living polygamy by turning it into an abomination (think Warren Jeffs). 

 

If we want to consider ourselves in a Jacob 2 situation then we should acknowledge that it is our own weaknesses that put us there.

 

And I'm sure Joseph saw that.

 

It appears you have misunderstood me JLHPROF.

Jacob 2:24 states: Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord.

 

And yet D&C 132:1 says: Verily thus saith the Lord unto you my servant Joseph, that inasmuch as you have inquired of my hand to know and understand wherein I, the Lord, justified my servants Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as also Moses, David and Solomon, my servants, as touching the principle and doctrine of their having many wives and concubines...

 

So which is it. Did the Lord regard David and Solomon's practice of plural marriage to be justified or to be an abomination? They can't, as far as I can see, both be right.

 

Therefore my point is that knowing the statement in Jacob 2 (as Joseph must have done) it makes no sense at all for him to enquire regarding the matter.

[VideoGameJunkie]

Cal, so you don't see a point to these message boards? I think it's fun to discuss interesting and serious topics in message boards.

[zionslight]

This has been very nice to see a variety of people on this board!  I am new so I did not want to take over the discussion, as it was not my original thread.

 

I would like to point out some things, and it absolutely leads to other topics and how we interpret the scriptures, and interpret those who interpret the scriptures, and I do agree with you Robert Smith on that particular point.

 

I spent 4 years in a court battle, which I was the Defendant until I finally became my own attorney 4 times and concluded a 5 day trial acting as an attorney.  I had to not quickly, but during this time, by my own choice, learn about the difference between assumption, hearsay, supposition, conclusion,conjecture, lying, false testimony, opinions facts, evidence, and real truth the absolute importance of God's word that by the mouth of "two or more witnesses".  The Lord will speak, and none else matters.  Men will confuse the facts every time.

 

I will never be the same.  It is how I understood how Christ could confound the people, and expound.  It was a double edged sword and the Word can give often times validate a person's prejudice depending on how it is read and understood.

 

Truth is ongoing and eternal.  I learned that most, if not ALMOST all people's testimony without the Spirit of total truth will carry a bit of all the above.  It is human nature.  The natural man is ALWAYS an enemy to God.  It is why I love reading the Brother of Jared speaking to the Lord.  He sees Him, and communes with Him, and still addresses the Lord, now his familiar Lord, with the spirit of humility and knowing that he, is a fallen man, and to have the Lord please turn HIs wrath away and listen to his simple request about the stones.  This is the Spirit of contriteness that Moses carried.  It was not present in the time directly following the Prophet Joseph's death.

 

Joseph Smith made plenty of very serious mistakes, and he was given the keys of Zion, which he still has.  I was just reading where the Lord is speaking to Oliver Cowdrey about his role to chasten or correct Joseph, as he was suppose to be corrected.

 

Our view that no man or prophet can fall or fail is simply not true.  Men can speak, and do, would all men be prophets.  The Church that the Lord established in the Book of Mormon was the type that we will be going into.  Remember this is a preparatory Gospel, we are ALL under condemnation the head and the tail unless we live the truths in the Book of Mormon and see angels, have the real Baptism, see Christ in the flesh and are holy enough to establish ZIon.

 

This did not and could not happen with Joseph.   The Doctrine and Covenants basically has become the covenants, without the most important Doctrine.  They took our the Lectures on Faith, which was and is some of the most important doctrine.  They changed the doctrine of one wife, to include a plethora of as many young women that the men could get, and they paid for it with jail time and their lives, because they did not listen to Joseph or the Lord.

 

It is as it should be, though!  God is looking to do a Marvelous Work and Wonder and is now, seriously, raising His Hand for a second recovery of His people.

 

These discussions will be fantastic, if we can all keep the Spirit of "seeking understanding" from each other, and to recognize the Spirit of real truth, that cuts and enlightens.

 

Nothing that FEELS yucky and dark is from God.  Having, and watching your husband go to your bed, and then leave and go to another woman's is not only unpleasant, and yes would be such a test, but is sickening to comprehend and really not endurable for most women including Emma and Sariah and would never be required by the Lord who laid it out so clear in Jacob in this present time.  The next life is a continuum of this life, and some women would love to share and will do this, I actually believe.  I have never said this opinion out loud, but I know for myself and my husband we would not choose this.  We have talked about this many times.  Would I do this at some future time, with a Celestial body, and new understanding I really don't know.  I am not worried about it because of my knowledge of God and His love and about Free Agency from the very beginning.  He simply could not force or make this a decision for any of us.  But this I do know, from an enormous amount of study and experience with the scriptures in His Word, which becomes plain unto us... that God absolutely called it a whoredom, and never blessed those that engaged in this here, and absolutely forbade it with his branch on this promised land.

 

 

Please let me expound on one scripture in Jacob and then continue, because it really does matter to understand the mistakes that were made, including Joseph's, and what we have in store for us.  We can be the same people as in Nauvoo, and lose our right and privilege and ONUS to help bring to pass Zion, or be left behind.  For the Lord has to have a holy bride that comes out of the church. We know this, but we failed it then, and we can not afford to fail it now.

 

D&C 107 lays out structure of this Church, and about the different roles of the twelve traveling witnesses, the council, their equal say, etc.  More on this, because it became an absolute nightmare after they lost Joseph, and he chose to come back after being commanded to leave.  He only came back because Emma conveyed to him that his own people were calling him back, and he knew he could not lead them further.

 

What we got then was sort of like the wanderings of the people in the wilderness with Moses, when God took Moses after the people simply would not seek the face of God themselves, and wanted a "prophet" to do that for them.

 

D&C 107 is clear that the Church of the Firstborn, or Christ's church that He is establishing is the Melchezedik priesthood right and privilege of seeing the Father, angels, communion with the Church of the Firstborn, etc.  Each man and woman holding such priesthood together get this direct privilege, not through a prophet but directly to God, as Joseph did.  This is what Joseph was trying to get to them, but like Moses, they simply would not listen.

 

Thomas Marsh was given an assignment, it is D&C 112, it is clear if you read it and in the heading that he was commanded to go preach repentance among a group of people, so you know who it was.  We just don't read it.  It is the Twelve Apostles.  We can talk more on that, God said the blessings that would happen IF they repented and came back to him.

 

Adultery was so prolific and such a problem with John C Bennett, and some of the woman, that Joseph was spending much of his time trying to squash that fire and to defend himself in court and to get rid of this sickness.

 

Robert, I have read the same material...Joseph Smith's son also almost came to the same conclusion that his father may have practiced such a thing, but he makes it clear that if he did, then he would have gone against his own words and he knew his father was a good man.  Joseph Smith III was 12, and knew his father and mother and says that at no time did his father have another wife, and Emma's own words state this.

 

I don't want to make this too long.   Again, I am new and don't know the culture of this site, nor any of you.

[zionslight]

I will break down my words so it is not too long.  Let's look at what the Lord is really saying, He does not mince words, He is very clear always in His communication with us.  The Lord spoke in parables to the people that he was around, but the Lord does not speak to us this way nor did Jacob do this when he was commanded to go straighten up the men.

 

We have completely misconstrued what Jacob was trying to tell the people, and again have gotten the language wrong.  Please, let me give an example.  We quote things in Sunday School that we think we know, but what we are quoting is the exact opposite of what the Lord is saying.  He says we have the lesser portion because we have already shut our eyes and are asleep, so some of what He does is confusing to those that can not plainly see the mysteries as God calls them, or has carnal desires.

 

To be carnally minded is death, to be spiritually minded is life.

 

God says that he will not "allow" His righteous branch to do like those of old.  He gives a direct commandment to those men that were beginning to do what the men with Joseph did.  Remember there was not a "church". They were establishing one. Some of the brethren had been around the Cochronites, including Brigham Young, who were polygamists.  They learned some of this from them.

 

Joseph at this time forbade, or gave the commandment that no man could go on a mission alone, they had to have a companion. This rule was broken, by several including Brigham Young who went and spent time with these people.  Brigham Young took a wife before Joseph could stop him. (more on that later).  Do I believe Brigham Young was a fallen prophet.  I believe that Brigham Young did what he could by becoming the President of the Church, but was under the same dictates in D&C 107 to be tried for crimes the same as any man.  We have simply not read that in the scriptures, it is clear.

 

Jacob had the same problem, pride, riches and men lusting after more than one wife.  They were beginning to wax in this iniquity and desired to do as those of Old that really had major problems.  David could not even build a temple, Solomon lost the Kingdom.  Jacob suffered from his own choices in his wife and wives, all being a choice.  Now the Lord used that and blessed them, as everything can be a blessing, including what happened with Polygamy.  He is still using it to sift us.

[Calm]

"This rule was broken, by several including Brigham Young who went and spent time with these people.  Brigham Young took a wife before Joseph could stop him. (more on that later)"

You need to document your claims and not just drop them out of the blue as if saying them was enough.

[ERayR]

This has been very nice to see a variety of people on this board!  I am new so I did not want to take over the discussion, as it was not my original thread.

 

I would like to point out some things, and it absolutely leads to other topics and how we interpret the scriptures, and interpret those who interpret the scriptures, and I do agree with you Robert Smith on that particular point.

 

I spent 4 years in a court battle, which I was the Defendant until I finally became my own attorney 4 times and concluded a 5 day trial acting as an attorney.  I had to not quickly, but during this time, by my own choice, learn about the difference between assumption, hearsay, supposition, conclusion,conjecture, lying, false testimony, opinions facts, evidence, and real truth the absolute importance of God's word that by the mouth of "two or more witnesses".  The Lord will speak, and none else matters.  Men will confuse the facts every time.

 

I will never be the same.  It is how I understood how Christ could confound the people, and expound.  It was a double edged sword and the Word can give often times validate a person's prejudice depending on how it is read and understood.

 

Truth is ongoing and eternal.  I learned that most, if not ALMOST all people's testimony without the Spirit of total truth will carry a bit of all the above.  It is human nature.  The natural man is ALWAYS an enemy to God.  It is why I love reading the Brother of Jared speaking to the Lord.  He sees Him, and communes with Him, and still addresses the Lord, now his familiar Lord, with the spirit of humility and knowing that he, is a fallen man, and to have the Lord please turn HIs wrath away and listen to his simple request about the stones.  This is the Spirit of contriteness that Moses carried.  It was not present in the time directly following the Prophet Joseph's death.

 

Joseph Smith made plenty of very serious mistakes, and he was given the keys of Zion, which he still has.  I was just reading where the Lord is speaking to Oliver Cowdrey about his role to chasten or correct Joseph, as he was suppose to be corrected.

 

Our view that no man or prophet can fall or fail is simply not true.  Men can speak, and do, would all men be prophets.  The Church that the Lord established in the Book of Mormon was the type that we will be going into.  Remember this is a preparatory Gospel, we are ALL under condemnation the head and the tail unless we live the truths in the Book of Mormon and see angels, have the real Baptism, see Christ in the flesh and are holy enough to establish ZIon.

 

This did not and could not happen with Joseph.   The Doctrine and Covenants basically has become the covenants, without the most important Doctrine.  They took our the Lectures on Faith, which was and is some of the most important doctrine.  They changed the doctrine of one wife, to include a plethora of as many young women that the men could get, and they paid for it with jail time and their lives, because they did not listen to Joseph or the Lord.

 

It is as it should be, though!  God is looking to do a Marvelous Work and Wonder and is now, seriously, raising His Hand for a second recovery of His people.

 

These discussions will be fantastic, if we can all keep the Spirit of "seeking understanding" from each other, and to recognize the Spirit of real truth, that cuts and enlightens.

 

Nothing that FEELS yucky and dark is from God.  Having, and watching your husband go to your bed, and then leave and go to another woman's is not only unpleasant, and yes would be such a test, but is sickening to comprehend and really not endurable for most women including Emma and Sariah and would never be required by the Lord who laid it out so clear in Jacob in this present time.  The next life is a continuum of this life, and some women would love to share and will do this, I actually believe.  I have never said this opinion out loud, but I know for myself and my husband we would not choose this.  We have talked about this many times.  Would I do this at some future time, with a Celestial body, and new understanding I really don't know.  I am not worried about it because of my knowledge of God and His love and about Free Agency from the very beginning.  He simply could not force or make this a decision for any of us.  But this I do know, from an enormous amount of study and experience with the scriptures in His Word, which becomes plain unto us... that God absolutely called it a whoredom, and never blessed those that engaged in this here, and absolutely forbade it with his branch on this promised land.

 

 

Please let me expound on one scripture in Jacob and then continue, because it really does matter to understand the mistakes that were made, including Joseph's, and what we have in store for us.  We can be the same people as in Nauvoo, and lose our right and privilege and ONUS to help bring to pass Zion, or be left behind.  For the Lord has to have a holy bride that comes out of the church. We know this, but we failed it then, and we can not afford to fail it now.

 

D&C 107 lays out structure of this Church, and about the different roles of the twelve traveling witnesses, the council, their equal say, etc.  More on this, because it became an absolute nightmare after they lost Joseph, and he chose to come back after being commanded to leave.  He only came back because Emma conveyed to him that his own people were calling him back, and he knew he could not lead them further.

 

What we got then was sort of like the wanderings of the people in the wilderness with Moses, when God took Moses after the people simply would not seek the face of God themselves, and wanted a "prophet" to do that for them.

 

D&C 107 is clear that the Church of the Firstborn, or Christ's church that He is establishing is the Melchezedik priesthood right and privilege of seeing the Father, angels, communion with the Church of the Firstborn, etc.  Each man and woman holding such priesthood together get this direct privilege, not through a prophet but directly to God, as Joseph did.  This is what Joseph was trying to get to them, but like Moses, they simply would not listen.

 

Thomas Marsh was given an assignment, it is D&C 112, it is clear if you read it and in the heading that he was commanded to go preach repentance among a group of people, so you know who it was.  We just don't read it.  It is the Twelve Apostles.  We can talk more on that, God said the blessings that would happen IF they repented and came back to him.

 

Adultery was so prolific and such a problem with John C Bennett, and some of the woman, that Joseph was spending much of his time trying to squash that fire and to defend himself in court and to get rid of this sickness.

 

Robert, I have read the same material...Joseph Smith's son also almost came to the same conclusion that his father may have practiced such a thing, but he makes it clear that if he did, then he would have gone against his own words and he knew his father was a good man.  Joseph Smith III was 12, and knew his father and mother and says that at no time did his father have another wife, and Emma's own words state this.

 

I don't want to make this too long.   Again, I am new and don't know the culture of this site, nor any of you.

 

Undoubtedly some mistakes were made in implementing polygamy, however, your own biases are glaringly apparent.  You have judged polygamy to be wrong and assumed it can not be from  God.  It is perhaps one of the most difficult of principles, that one with a twenty first century western civilization perception, to understand and live but it should not be dismissed. 

Edited September 4, 2014 by ERayR

[BookofMormonLuvr]

It appears you have misunderstood me JLHPROF.

Jacob 2:24 states: Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord.

 

And yet D&C 132:1 says: Verily thus saith the Lord unto you my servant Joseph, that inasmuch as you have inquired of my hand to know and understand wherein I, the Lord, justified my servants Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as also Moses, David and Solomon, my servants, as touching the principle and doctrine of their having many wives and concubines...

 

So which is it. Did the Lord regard David and Solomon's practice of plural marriage to be justified or to be an abomination? They can't, as far as I can see, both be right.

 

Therefore my point is that knowing the statement in Jacob 2 (as Joseph must have done) it makes no sense at all for him to enquire regarding the matter.

This and the Emma bashing later in the Section is why I believe 132 is either a fake or doctored to add in a polygamy angle.

[zionslight]

We quote Nephi  quoting Isaiah in 2 Nephi 12, for example as though we are now having everyone come unto the Mountain of the Lord and we teach them. But this is not the case, yet, this has yet to happen after Zion is established.

 

 We believe that our temples and what we are doing is accomplishing that, but it is only setting the stage.  It is an important work, for sure,  and so much is being established by the spreading of the gospel, but when the Gentile Church, or people as a whole reject the Fullness, of seeing Christ and doing these same works of moving mountains, etc, then it is then given.  Read Jacob 5, the Lord comes to His Vineyard and His people, and this time there is an "abundance" of fruit, it has completely cumbered the tree as we have.  There are so many members, so much fruit, and the Lord says after already identifying that it is at the last time, in the last days, right before the cleanse that NONE of it is good.  It is all evil, and the Lord says He will burn it all.  The only way that the roots are saved, is that the Gentile Church goes through a cleanse, that we are about to go through, and then the natural branches, the lost tribes, the Jews, and those we then go to save, the servants that is, they come back and save the roots, or the whole tree would perish from where we are!

 

Now, this doesn't mean they aren't good people, or His beloved Vineyard and people, but the fruit, again as the Lord Himself says in 3 Nephi, His People are as prideful as the world, have adopted Facebook as their means of communication, instead of with Him, and I am being serious.  The sins of Sodom and Gommorah, Ezekiel says in Ezekiel 16, that it was Pride, like us, fullness of break, LIKE US, and idleness, like us.  Homosexuality was just a by product, like us.

 

Anyway, back to Nephi, he is quoting Isaiah who says these people come and get taught about the Lord, when Zion comes, which is the next part of Jacob 5, we can get into, but for now Nephi later does what Isaiah does, and that is first tells us that this is going to happen, but not until AFTER our fall.  He pleads with us, who think that a good Sunday activity is going home and watching the Super Bowl and literal satanic rituals on television without even knowing, he says.  "O house of Jacob, come ye and let us walk in the light of the Lord; yea, come for ye have ALL gone astray, every one to his wicked ways.

 

Therefore O Lord, thou hast FORSAKEN thy people, the house of Jacob, because they be replenished from the east (where we get all our things, China, etc)....and they please themselves in the children of strangers.

 

"***Their land also is full of silver and gold, neither is there any end of their treasures; their land is also full of horses, neither is there any end of their chariots. (cars, etc)

 

Now I am going somewhere with this, back to Jacob 2... but I am trying to show a point what happened then, and what is happening now except for a few that are choosing to read Isaiah, and understand the mistakes that were made, being made now, and what is going to happen to bring us to knowing the Lord and establishing Zion, which will be one wife and one husband here upon the earth, and so when this country makes polygamy legal, those who have read and understood Jacob 2, will know which way the Lord has set up, for He is not going to change this when this world makes everything go.  They tried this, discounted Joseph and then laid down the revelation at his feet, which he stated over and over he did not have more than one wife.  All those women were sealed to him without his knowledge, and the others you can go back and see that they were false, starting with Fanny Alger...who slunk away after the rumor about Joseph.  More on this.  It really is startling, and makes us look to the Lord and His word for guidance.

 

 

Then Nephi in 2 Nephi 25  Nephi stops quoting Isaiah and then speaks directly to us, in plainness, as Jacob did the people.  Nephi says, "wherefore they (these plain words he now speaks in the next few chapters about us building up our church's instead of helping the poor, etc) they are of worth unto the children of men, and he that supposeth that they are not, unto them will I speak particularly".

 

Anyone heard the joking in our church, that now we get to read about Isaiah and good luck because we simply can not understand them!

[zionslight]

Ok, Ok, just give me time ok.  I really don't just want to drop claims, I am trying to establish some ideas and then can speak about them.  I am not attempting to prove anything yet, only join in your discussion.  Is that fair?

 

It takes some time and to really go back and see the history to show the documentation of this.  I loved Brigham Young.  I love his words, not all of them, and I love him as a person.  I especially am in deep appreciation of the rescue of the people that were coming West, and know that the Lord worked with Him as He has ALL His prophets.  The Lord has always done this with all of them!

 

But this is a new time where the Lord is now asking us to know the mistakes of the past, and to recognize our part to play in Zion.  They laid a foundation for us to now be prepared for the Church of the Firstborn.  I am writing these things to show that these are almost irrelevant to what is happening now, but relevant only because this world and country is a free for all, and we have the scriptures, and mistakes of the past to help us steer our way in this most turbulent time.

 

It is not to demean anyone.  No one I know makes more mistakes than I, and I love Joseph and his character is a lot like mine, to trust your enemies and keep forgiving, and then you lose everything from a lack of wisdom in that matter.  That is why he lost his gift because of his great desire for everyone to have what he had.

 

The bank problem almost destroyed him and the Church.  He said that certain individuals would lead the church to the brink of destruction, and it happened.  That is why we have D&C 107 to show that even a President of the Church can be tried and the Lord is leading, not men. 

 

The Lord is taking this to a new place, it has been prophesied throughout the whole period of time, and it is now in our day.  The scriptures are coming alive right before our eyes and our attention should be off of men, any man, and onto the Lord Himself who will personally direct us in a time shortcoming.

[Calm]

"More on this"

No, not later, you need to give the documentation at the same time as the claim or drop the claim.

It is not fair to besmirch people's reputation on the basis you will provide the evidence later.

Edited September 4, 2014 by calmoriah

[zionslight]

Taking a breath.  Let me introduce myself.  Again I AM NEW.  Nice to meet the person talking about my biases.  I jumped into your conversation new.  I have believed in polygamy my whole life.  I knew that if the Lord asked me to share my husband I would, and then I would probably die.  That is true,  Adultery is adultery period.  But I would have done it, and if the Lord came down and told me to, i would do that too.

 

My father loved my mother, she died, and he married again.  We loved her and supported her, and my father was told to quickly remarry for us children, which was a very hard thing, but we all were good and kind to her.  Elder Tom Perry did his sealing, and wrote to me years later to come and meet him on other matters which I did. I saw these men as men, just as my father, just as all of us.  They love the Lord, and they are doing their best, in this church where it is.  

 

 I got to visit with him, I was privileged of visiting with Elder Ballard, with Elder Nelson, and Elder Eyring.  All about a different subject.  

 

 

President Benson warned us of some things, and then you saw the switch after to quickly get the temples done, then into repentance, and now we had better get ready for the cleanse that is surely to happen, just like it did then.
 

I'd like to just point out some of the mistakes made because it makes you understand the Language of the Lord better and it just makes sense of all of it.  If they would correct the history, some people that leave the church would stay.  Polygamy just did not make sense to these people, and it still doesn't.  You listen to President Hinckley's interview with  Larry King and you hear the same thing.  It just needs to be seen as it really was.  These men made mistakes, and I believe some of what we are doing now is a mistake like City Creek and other things, but the Lord is the one correcting the ship.

 

He is going to take the world out of the church, and the church out of the world.

 

please give me time to explain each comment made.

[JLHPROF]

Ok, Ok, just give me time ok.  I really don't just want to drop claims, I am trying to establish some ideas and then can speak about them.  I am not attempting to prove anything yet, only join in your discussion.  Is that fair?

 

 

You mistakenly believe that your ideas on this subject are new here.  We have heard them before and the majority dismiss them as being without foundation.  Therefore we go straight to the "prove it" mentality.

 

There is nothing in your anti-polygamy theories that is new here.  The whole "Joseph wouldn't lie", "Jacob said this", "God wouldn't support hurting a wives feelings", "Brigham corrupted the teaching" - it's come through here many times.

 

Let me be clear:  As far as Mormonism is concerned POLYGAMY WAS NOT A MISTAKE AND D&C 132 IS THE WORD OF GOD.  There is no historically valid evidence to the contrary.  Polygamy has been withdrawn, but that was as much our flaws as God's will, just like in Jacob.

 

Do you actually have any new evidence to support these old theories you are using?

Edited September 4, 2014 by JLHPROF

[zionslight]

Some of this is long, but for me the more information the better.  This is some of the journal entries taken from two of the apostles that preached among the Cochronites.  The RLDS church held all of the original Times and Seasons, and documentation of much of the original journals.  There had been changes to other journal that the Church had, but we have the original words of Joseph and others because of this.

 

The LDS church has been allowed to put most of these on their site again with the stipulation that nothing can be altered. 

 

I can address Brigham Young in a moment.  I copied these particular journal entries from restorationbookstore.com where they have some of the original documentation and I have loved their research.  But it can be found elsewhere as well.

 

 

Jacob Cochran established his small denomination in the area between Boston, Massachusetts, and Portland, Maine. By 1830 Cochran had gone into hiding to escape imprisonment due to his practice of polygamy; and his denomination was struggling to continue under the leadership of John Dennett and others. Shortly after the Book of Mormon was published in March 1830, Latter Day Saint missionaries began to make their way into the Boston area, where they found that making converts among the Cochranites was fruitful. So successful were they that a Church conference was held in Saco, Maine (the heart of the Cochranite area), August 21, 1835, at which nine of the newly ordained apostles were in attendance (RLDS History of the Church 1:583; Latter Day Saints' Messenger and Advocate 2 [October 1835]: 204 207; LDS History of the Church 2:252). The LDS reference states that seven of the Twelve met in conference at Saco, Maine.

But the converting of the Cochranites and their gathering to Church headquarters at Kirtland, Ohio, and later to Nauvoo, Illinois, brought the Church more than just increased numbers. It also brought the plague of polygamy for some of the Cochranites brought their doctrines with them. This was a natural consequence of the fact that these people had lived in polygamy for years. They were men who had practiced polygamy, women who had been plural wives, and children born of polygamy. They had been indoctrinated with the belief that polygamy was a sacred doctrine.

An even more devastating result of missionary work among the Cochranites was that some of the Latter Day Saint missionaries, including Apostles Orson Hyde and Brigham Young, accepted the doctrine of polygamy and began practicing it at Nauvoo before Joseph Smith's death. Joseph moved to bring these men before the High Council for trial, but was martyred before he accomplished the task.

The area where Church Missionaries converted many Cochranites in the early 1830s.

Two of the first missionaries assigned to take the gospel to this area, which included the states of Massachusetts, New Hampshire, and Maine, were twenty-six-year-old Orson Hyde, and the Prophet Joseph's younger brother, Samuel Smith, who was twenty-two. They left Kirtland, Ohio, on February 1, 1832, for their mission. Each kept a journal in which he recorded his daily experiences as they traveled through this area, preaching at every opportunity. The original Journal of Orson Hyde and the Missionary Journal of Samuel Harrison Smith 1832 are now in the archives of the LDS Church Historical Department in Salt Lake City, Utah. Typescripts of the two journals, which tell of their work among the Cochranites, were obtained by Richard and Pamela Price. Below are extracts taken from Orson and Samuel's journals.

Orson wrote on June 29, 1832, at Boston:

Samuel penned on the same day:

Preached in the evening ... two ladies confessed their faith in the work, and a Miss and Mrs. [Augusta Adams] Cobb.

[zionslight]

Orson recorded on July 1, while still in Boston:

Baptized three: Augusta Cobb, Elizabeth Harendeen and __________ Porter.

Samuel wrote of that meeting:

attended to Sacrament, considerably disturbed by false spirits in a man and woman that believed in the Cochranite Doctrine. We cried against them and after a little got them considerably quelled.... Not a very good time because of disturbance.

This was the first time that Orson and Samuel mentioned Cochranism in their journals. Note that Augusta Cobb, one of the baptismal candidates, was in the meeting where Cochranites were present. She later became a plural wife of Brigham Young (The Utah Genealogical and Historical Magazine 2 [April 1920]: 54).

Somewhat interrupted this day in the meeting by a man and woman that taught the doctrine of the devil, such as ... having spiritual wives.... They came to our meeting. The woman arose and began to preach and we requested her to stop and she would not, and we cried against her spirit, for we knew that it was an unclean spirit, and we cried against it that it was of the devil, and it made considerable stir. The man that had the same spirit tempted us, saying: "Cast the Devil out," crying amen to the words of the woman. After considerable muttering and grumbling and shaking of her frame, she stopped and we proceeded with our meeting.

Orson and Samuel continued their walking and preaching journey from Massachusetts, through New Hampshire, and into Maine, staying a part of the time in polygamous homes. On September 25 they were in the village of York, Maine, where they again came in contact with the Cochranite woman who had disrupted the Sacrament service in Boston on July 1. Samuel explained concerning her:

a large congregation came together and Brother Orson preached to them.... We then were invited to go home with a young man by the name of Ludgkins and stayed overnight with him. His stepmother we had seen before. We had seen her in Boston, the woman that came into our meeting and we had cried against her spirit.

On September 28 Orson and Samuel were in Kennebunkport, Maine, another Cochranite stronghold. Orson wrote:

Samuel added to the story on that same day:

attended a Cochranite meeting, and they said, "if any one had a message from God there was liberty to give it unto the people." And I commenced by prayer, but thought I would not tell them about the work then, but would get their confidence in the first place.

On October 10 Samuel and Orson were still among the Cochranites. Orson wrote:

we went to a meeting in the evening and the people were called Cockrinites because the man that first preached their faith, his name was Cockrin. They gave liberty for anyone to speak.... Brother Orson spoke to them and exhorted them to faithfulness to the Lord and to humility and to stand in the Councul of the Lord, that they might know the voice of the Good Shepherd, that they might when the voice came "behold the Bridegroom Cometh" go out to meet him. And they said "Amen." When meeting closed, we spake that we would like to preach to the people.... They would not let us.

Samuel's journal for October 10 contains this revealment:

Visited three families but without much hope of doing anything to profit them because of the "Cochranite's," a deluded sect of people, by whom many had been deceived, and the people were afraid of the truth, and for this cause the way of truth was evil spoken of.... ut few came out to meeting.

a less number came together in the evening than before, but we declared unto them that they must repent and go up to Zion.

On the following day, October 11, they walked only three miles to Ogunquit and found another Cochranite congregation, in which they were allowed to preach. Orson's journal states:

Samuel gave his opinion about the Cochranites. He recorded:

preached to a congregation of Cochranites who gave liberty; told them again to repent and go up to Zion, and we lifted our cry in the Spirit, and I hope some of them will go; but they had a wonderful lustful spirit, because they believe in a "Plurality of wives" which they call spiritual wives, knowing them not after the flesh but after the spirit, but by the appearance they knew one another after the flesh. (italics added)

The astounding thing about Orson's preaching (for he nearly always took the lead) was the fact that he preached the doctrine of the gathering to the Cochranites, and urged them to gather without weighing the terrible consequences of polygamy entering the Church.

the people in these parts were under a delusion and such a spirit of confusion had seized them that it appeared to be impossible to teach them, to get them to hear and understand by the right Spirit.

On October 15 Orson and Samuel were in the town of Newburyport, Maine. Orson wrote:

On October 16 Orson and Samuel remained at Mr. Ham's. Historian G. T. Ridlon, Sr., wrote that Ham was "among the more notable who went out to plant Cochran's standard" (Ridlon, Saco Valley Settlements, 279). The two ministers helped Ham dig his potatoes and Samuel says, "Got them [members of Ham's family] to wash some clothes." That evening Samuel and Orson had a meeting with the Cochranites.

called on Mr. Goodrich and Stimpson; tried to persuade them to go to Zion, and they seemed to have some little disposition to go, but could not bring them to repentance before God. Came up about two miles farther to Mr. [Timothy] Hams and tarried all night; found him an enthusiastic man,—a Cochranite—Not much hopes of going to Zion or embracing.

On October 17 Orson recorded:

Visited three families and talked a good deal; some hopes of their going to Zion some time.

In commenting upon Orson's sermon, Samuel said:

But by the next evening, October 18, Samuel had more hopes for some of the Cochranites, for he and Orson had moved to the home of still another Cochranite, Captain Andrews. Samuel was encouraged. Not only had Captain Andrews subscribed to the Church's periodical, The Evening and the Morning Star, but there were hopes that some of the Cochranites would "gather." Samuel declared:

Brother Orson preached to them.... Spake upon the Covenant. Declared unto them that they must repent, all of them and be baptized and go to Zion. But they were hard and unbelieving and we had not much hope of them.

On October 20 and 21 they were guests of a polygamous Cochranite and his plural wife. Orson reported:

visited some of the neighborhood and found some that we thought would go to Zion.

On October 22 they left Kennebunkport and traveled to a neighboring Cochranite settlement. Since they were walking from one Cochranite group to another, it appears that friendly Cochranites were directing them in making new contacts. The journals of both men verify that before preaching on October 24, near Hollis, Maine, they visited with Samuel Hill and a Mr. Burrell [who were evidently Cochranites]. Some, who were opposed to Cochranism, were suspicious of Orson and Samuel because they were fraternizing with those polygamists who had caused so much sorrow among the people of that area. On the evening of October 24, after Orson had preached, a man questioned the two missionaries about their Cochranite connections:

Tarried all night at Mr. McKinney's, who lived with what he called a spiritual wife.

One man arose and said the people would not be likely to receive it [the doctrines brought by Orson and Samuel] if it were true because of Cochran's description. He then mentioned the names of two Cochranites, and said if we had any fellowship for them he wished us to depart out of their coast. I then told them that our message was from God, and it was as much to Cochranites as Free Will Baptists, and that I should rejoice as much to see a Cochranite redeemed from his errors as a Free Will Baptist. But I told them I had no fellowship with error nor iniquity. They did not request us to hold another meeting; but a man three miles from the place was there, a Cochranite, and he invited us to go there; and we gave out an appointment for the next evening.

Samuel told the same story in these words:

On October 25 Orson and Samuel were in the town of Limon, Maine, guests of Simeon Weymouth, a Cochranite. They helped Weymouth husk corn that day and the next, and he allowed them to preach evenings in his home. On the twenty-seventh, Orson and Samuel again visited Timothy Ham, a Cochranite, and the Dennett family, whose daughter was very ill. On the twenty-eighth the missionaries preached twice.

one man arose and said that there had been a deceiver through that country and had deceived the people and the people were afraid and ... if we had fellowship with that people that had been deceived (Kockranites) he should desire us to depart out of their coast, that the people would not desire to hear us any more. We told him our mission was unto all people and we did not believe in the doctrine of the Kockranites.... Hill [one of the two men they had been visiting] was some believing, but rather stupid ... yet we had hopes that he and his family would go to Zion.

Orson wrote:

By October 30 Orson and Samuel were guests at the George Dennett home, and were helping him dig potatoes by day and having meetings "at the School House" at night. They had a good attendance. On November 1 they returned to visit their Cochranite friend, Simeon Weymouth, and again spent the night. On November 2 they returned to Dennett's and preached the funeral sermon of the Dennett girl, whom they had visited earlier. This show of concern by Orson and Samuel, as well as their having helped with the harvest, and staying in their homes, caused the Cochranites to show so much interest in the Restored Gospel that the missionaries had a prayer meeting with members of the polygamous sect.

Samuel preached in the spirit; people paid good attention, and some, I think will go to Zion.

On Sunday, November 4, the two men attended a Methodist meeting, but were not persistent in making contact with the Methodists, and were soon back with the more obliging Cochranites. Orson revealed:

Samuel confirmed:

Went to Methodist meeting in the forenoon, hoping to give out an appointment for evening, but the Minister gave out an appointment before me, and we arose disappointed, but I spoke to them about 15 minutes, and bore a strong testimony upon the "gathering." Held a meeting in the evening at Mr. Dennit's; cried against one unclean spirit, and had a very good time and meeting.

Went to a meeting expecting to give out an appointment for the evening, but the preacher gave out one for himself. We returned to Dennet's and Timothy Ham and others that were in the doctrine that was called Cochranites and some of them desired us to come into their quarter and preach. Ham began to pray as he called it and went into a wonderful spirit of distraction and confusion, yea, it was an evil spirit and we bore testimony against his spirit. Stayed overnight at Dennet's. Held a meeting in the evening.

The missionaries spent November 6 at Simeon Weymouth's, and then returned to Dennett's. On the eighth they traveled to Weymouth's, where they baptized Simeon Weymouth and his wife Esther, Sally Taylor, and Lovey Dennett. Under the date of November 9 Orson's journal states:

Went up three miles to S. [simeon] Waymouth's and baptized him [George Dennett], and in the evening had prayer, and a very good time; and the Lord was with us; and Satan also came in—a crazy sort of a female; we cried against her, and after a short time got her still. Tarried [stayed that night] at the same place.

 

Upon reading Orson's description of the woman who disrupted the meeting, one is left to wonder if she were a plural wife; and if so, was her mental derangement a result of the baptism of one of the Cochranite men? Elders Hyde and Smith never addressed the problems of the polygamous wives and children in their journals. Their fate has been a well-kept secret for over 160 years.

Now the mysterious puzzle begins to fit together. The shelves of many libraries still hold heart-wrenching stories, such as the following example:

We know of a sea captain who lived on the west side of the Saco [River]. He had married a beautiful daughter of respectable parentage, and to them two pretty boys had been given. Before Jacob Cochran appeared in that community peace and contentment reigned in that home-circle. But the father, a man of speculative and unstable mind, was swept from his moorings by the sophistry of this imposter and spent the time that should have been devoted to the interests of his family with the followers of the "New Apostle to the Gentiles," as some called him. He had a "spiritual wife" assigned to him, said farewell to Hannah [his legal wife], tore her children from her bosom, and left for the westward, where a community of primitive Mormons had congregated. When these sons had grown to manhood they retained a faint recollection of a mother, and refused to call one by that dear name who had taken her rightful place. They instituted a searching inquiry for their mother's family, came east and visited the old homestead, but, alas! too late to see her who had found a premature grave in consequence of the great sorrow that had fallen upon her heart (Ridlon, 

Saco Valley Settlements

, 280).

On November 12 Orson and Samuel were guests at the home of John Dennett. This may have been the notorious John Dennett previously mentioned—the leader of the Cochranites, who took Jacob Cochran's place at the head of that sect when Cochran fled.

On the thirteenth Orson and Samuel preached and stayed all night with a neighbor. Orson summed up his thoughts with these words:

I think some of them will go to Zion.

The above selections from the journals of Orson and Samuel are sufficient to show that the Church's missionaries labored extensively among the Cochranites. A vast amount of information is available in libraries in many states, including the LDS Church and RLDS Church archives, which shows beyond a shadow of a doubt that polygamy entered the Church through the Cochranite religion!

[zionslight]

There were other polygamous societies in America and England during the Kirtland-Nauvoo period, and they too contributed toward polygamy entering the Church. But Cochranism was the polygamists' primary mainspring into the Church. However, many who joined the Church in Cochranite areas were not polygamists, but stalwart Christians with excellent morals. Among those faithful ones were two young women, Mary Bailey and Agnes Coolbrith, who were baptized as a result of Orson and Samuel's preaching. Samuel Smith, the Prophet's brother, married Mary Bailey, and Don Carlos Smith, another brother, married Agnes Coolbrith. Also from the midst of the Cochranites came Arthur Milliken, who married Lucy Smith, Joseph's youngest sister. Neither Mary nor Agnes embraced polygamy, and Arthur Milliken was a faithful member of the Church during the presidencies of Joseph the Martyr and his son, Joseph III. Arthur and Lucy bitterly opposed polygamy.

Orson Hyde and Samuel Smith were not the only missionaries who journeyed through the Cochranite areas. Other Church ministers traveled and preached throughout the region with great success during the Kirtland and Nauvoo eras. But Saco, Maine, a Cochranite stronghold, was one of the most fruitful fields for missionary work—so much so that a conference was held in Saco on June 13, 1834 (The Evening and the Morning Star 2 [August 1834]: 181; RLDS History of the Church 1:521). The following year, "On August 21, 1835, nine of the Twelve [apostles] met in conference at Saco, Maine" (Messenger and Advocate 2 [October 1835]: 204 207; RLDS History of the Church 1:583). With nine of the twelve apostles making their appearance in Saco, there is no doubt that each one of them became well acquainted with the doctrines of Cochranism, for at that time it was a popular secular and religious news topic. Those evil dogmas must have made a deep impression on the apostles, for of the twelve who were in the apostolic quorum at the time of Joseph's death, at least eleven became polygamists!

[zionslight]

I do not want to take over this discussion.  I am not trying to present new information.  I know this exists, but there are some that do not know this.  Women are made to feel that at any time they are going to have to share their one and only with someone, and it is beyond heartbreaking unless you can see what the Lord says, and I believe we all add to these discussions, and there may be something I have that someone does not know about.

 

It will lead to further discussions that I may have something to add, especially about Joseph's sons and the part they had to play in the eradication of polygamy, and the amazing and wonderful men they were.  They were the ones cast out, not the other way around.

 

All of Joseph's family was disowned, and the Lord in some ways disowned them until they repented.  We must learn from history because in some aspects we are doing the same thing and I want to direct our attention to this at some point.

[Robert F. Smith]

You've written almost 4,500 posts on this board, but don't seem to have read a single one posted by others because there is not a single thread on this board in which someone doesn't say that we should put our faith in church leaders.

False.  Objectively false.

 

I wish I had a nickel for every time I read, "whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same.” (D&C 1:38).

 

In fact, within the last day or so, someone started a thread to make it perfectly clear that they do not believe that BY was mistaken about the Adam-God doctrine.  In thread after thread, members have argued that the Church leaders were right in implementing the priesthood and temple restrictions against blacks, even after the Church itself has retracted all of its previous explanations for the policy.  Therefore, rather than admitting that Church leaders could have been WRONG, they argue that Church leaders stumbled upon the "right" answer (denying blessings to blacks) even if all of their justifications later proved false.

 

Kate Kelly has been raked over the coals REPEATEDLY because she had the temerity to challenge the church's CURRENT stance on the ordination of women.  And people like me are constantly rebuffed for questioning our CURRENT church policies on SSM and other social issues.  The constant refrain from Team Church is almost always, "God is in charge of His Church and therefore, the prophets are speaking for HF."

 

At the core of just about every discussion on this board is the question, "Do we dare question the prophets?"  So please forgive those of us who entertain the "ridiculous notion" that many Mormons put their faith in prophets "who will never lead the Church astray."  Where could we have possibly gotten such a ridiculous idea?

Methinks thou dost protest too much!

You overstate the sad fact that there are indeed some yokels out there who believe that putting faith in a fallible person is a good idea.  Brother Brigham used to object to that sort of nonsense, and so did Joseph Smith.  Most recently, President Uchtdorf also made it clear that

 

"to be perfectly frank, there have been times when members or leaders in the Church have simply made mistakes.  There may have been things said or done that were not in harmony with our values, principles, or doctrine.

"I suppose the Church would only be perfect, if it were run by perfect beings.  God is perfect and his doctrine is pure.  But he works through us, his imperfect children.  And imperfect people make mistakes."   D. Uchtdorf, October 5, 2013, LDS General Conference, Ensign, 43/11 (Nov 2013):22.

 

One might well ask what part of fallible these yokels don't understand, and they will cite D&C 1:38, as though that were a relevant answer.  I am no happier than you are with Mormons who put their faith in the arm of flesh and have no clue what true faith might be.  But what did you really expect?  And why make the silly claim that everybody does it?  I've been around awhile, Brother, and I just don't hear that kind of nonsense that often.  When I do, I object.  I hope that you do the same.

 

Meantime, please don't make the false claim that most Mormons are yokels.  They aren't.  Their faith is in God and in His Son Jesus Christ.  They listen respectfully to counsel from priesthood authority, whether their bishop or Church president, but that is never because they believe in the false doctrine of infallibility, but out of respect for the priesthood office.  They know that only by confirmation of that counsel by the Holy Spirit may they have any real confidence in that counsel.  Brigham Young made that point abundantly clear:

 

I am more afraid that this people have so much confidence in their leaders that they will not inquire for themselves of God whether they are led by him. I am fearful they settle down in a state of blind self-security, trusting their eternal destiny in the hands of their leaders with a reckless confidence that in itself would thwart the purposes of God in their salvation, and weaken that influence they could give to their leaders, did they know for themselves, by the revelations of Jesus, that they are led in the right way. Let every man and woman know, by the whispering of the Spirit of God to themselves, whether their leaders are walking in the path the Lord dictates, or not. This has been my exhortation continually. (B. Young, Journal of Discourses, IX:150)

 

If you don't believe it, take a poll.

Edited September 4, 2014 by Robert F. Smith

[JLHPROF]

Zionslight, you could save us all a lot of reading and just link to the book where you got your ideas:

 

http://www.amazon.com/Joseph-Smith-Fought-Polygamy-Polygamous/dp/1891353055/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1409858557&sr=8-1&keywords=joseph+smith+fought+polygamy

 

A book with little to no historical credibility among historians (and a pretty 50/50 split Amazon review rating too).

Edited September 4, 2014 by JLHPROF

[zionslight]

And I am not assuming that it is wrong, Jacob makes that clear.  In the next Chapter Jacob 3, Jacob tells those men that because they have broken that one commandment that the Lamanites have kept, he will basically give them the land.  It was the single commandment that they only had one wife.

 

These things, that are referred to are the abominations.  Joseph stated that he did not practice polygamy, so either he lied, and the Lord lied and the other brethren were right although they were chastened severely, or Joseph really was telling the truth the whole time, and the scholars took William Clayton's single words for D&C 132 as the new doctrine even though we know that the Lord speaks by the mouth of two or more witnesses.

 

William Clayton was the only person who said he heard Joseph give this doctrine to Hyrum, at a time it was not feasible, since Joseph made it clear he had scribes to document every single word and where he was at at every moment, so he could not be accused of this.

 

It is a time for truth, and the mysteries of God through His scriptures to come to us.  Joseph claimed innocence, I claimed innocence even though I was accused.  So I came to personally know the importance of taking someone words for their truth, not what someone else said was said, and so on.

[Calm]

So far no evidence against Brigham save a mention of a woman who later became a plural wife.

[zionslight]

No, my words are my words.  This is only one book, one site.  I am a little startled by your response.   I do not take my words from what I have read from one book.  I have read as many as there out there.  I never bought this book, and do not need to.  I love seeing the original TImes and Seasons and Joseph's words. 

 

"What a thing it is for a man to be accused of committing adultery, and having seven wives,
when I can only find one"—Joseph Smith (LDS History of the Church 6:411).

 

I have some understanding of Jacob 2 and 3, I would be happy to share which makes it more clear what the Lord was saying, and how when it was done wrong, they suffered the same consequence as back then.  

 

Please read the board guidelines (link at bottom of page) before posting again. You are walking a fine line between preaching and discussion. No sermons or large amounts of cut & paste please. When you use anything taken from someone else's work you must reference that source.

[Calm]

http://en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smith/Polygamy/Cochranites

Both the Cochranites and the Mormons seemed to have similar views on polygamy as an institution. This view sits within a collective religious view that was popular at the time, and which is generally labeled the restorationist movement. But, this isn't the only point of similarity. Mormonism also shares a number of other views with Cochranism that aren't so controversial, and where Mormonism certainly doesn't get them from Cochranism. It was these other similarities (and not polygamy) that drew the former Cochranites to Mormonism (just as they drew members from the other restorationist movement churches as well).

There is no historical connection between Mormonism and Cochranism prior to the missionary work in Maine. We don't have Mormon documents that discuss Cochranism (let alone its polygamy) save in negative terms. Because of this, everyone who makes this sort of claim must do so by building a case out of circumstantial evidence. Further, they have to discount the evidence that points to discussions on polygamy within Mormonism beginning in 1831 and 1832 (before missionary work in Maine had even begun)—and that evidence grows as we get closer to the 1834-5 time frame when the members in Maine began to move west.

The implementation of polygamy within Cochranism and Mormonism is radically different. Within Mormonism, it is closely connected to the idea of an eternal marriage, temple worship, and priesthood. All of these elements do not exist within Cochransim. The polygamy of Cochranism most closely relates to the spiritual wifery concept that was fabricated by John C. Bennett in Nauvoo. Bennett was excommunicated for it. So while it works very well to label both polygamy as a way of making the comparison stronger by sleight of hand, when you actually describe the two in contemporary language, they come across as very different things. Language has always proved to be a bit of a problem in these situations. The Cochranites did not call it polygamy, Mormonism did not like the use of the word polygamy. But, when we have modern use of the term, without a description of the way in which it is implemented, it hides how different these practices really were.

Work by RLDS fundamentalists Richard and Pamela Price (often invoked in these discussions) tries to explain how polygamy came to be in a way that allows them to exclude Joseph Smith from the equation.[3] The 1877 source, as well as a history of Saco, Maine (which the Price's use and which gets quoted quite a bit in the discussion) are very much interested in connecting Joseph Smith personally to the idea of polygamy as taught by the Cochranites. Therefore, the Prices and others become very selective readers of their source material. They take what they want to use, they ignore and discount the rest, and they weave it into this narrative that supports conclusions they have already determined. It is the wrong way to go about creating history.

[zionslight]

And Calmoriah...I was just thinking of how much I liked your posts!  It would take a LOT of time to show what Brigham Young did, and I do not have any intention on disparaging his name.  I will post some things about this, just to show some of his own anguish and own consequences, but that was not my original point.

 

I was just pointing out that to know Joseph Smith, you must read his original writings, not what anyone said about him. To know Brigham Young, read his, and what he says about putting a javelin through the heart of one of his wives, he was ruthless in some things, and terrible consequences happened ie Mountain Meadows Massacre.

 

William Smith was the patriarch of the church at the time, and he openly spoke about his brother and that the doctrine that the other brethren were teaching was not correct, and he was the Patriarch.  

 

What I want to get into is how we misread the scriptures, and not rehash the whole polygamy issue, been there done that.  I have an uncle sealed to two wonderful woman and I can see them together forever, for me and my husband I don't see that, nor with the woman sealed to my father, because she found another man she loved.

 

But if you do not really see the insanity and death that this caused, you will miss the Lord's reasoning that He commanded them to have one wive, and if He, the Lord did not command them, they should hearken to "these things" which was the whoredom.  We have simply misread this verse, just like a few others.

 

We have a work to do, not to contend but to enlighten and lift each other up.  I only speak of these things, to show that we are clueless sometimes now, and even then, they suffered death and heartache as the Lord tells us because of their contentions one with another.

 

Our role is different, but we better know this and take it seriously so that we can make it through what the Lord has said will happen because we are in a state of Sodom and Gomorran as a nation, and we need to know what is going to happen, and how we can make it through to Zion.