Tsuzuki Posted September 6, 2014 Posted September 6, 2014 Sad you would want such...insulting to be frank.I'm sorry you feel that way, but I don't believe in placing artificial limitations on human relationships. Joseph Smith had a good start, but he didn't go far enough.
ERayR Posted September 6, 2014 Posted September 6, 2014 Haha Robert Smith, I have not heard of "Name it and claim it." haha I'm even fine with being assigned a wife by God if it's by God. Just hope she is fine with it.
MormonFreeThinker Posted September 7, 2014 Posted September 7, 2014 I'm sure there must be something wrong with my computer because everytime it comes up on here and I state my belief that Joseph was not a polygamist, What is scientists find DNA evidence that disagrees with your conclusion? What if scientists find DNA evidence that proves that Joseph Smith had children with one of his wives? Would you change your mind? Or would you be like ERayR? Every time DNA evidence disagrees with ERayR, he says it is only an interpretation.
ERayR Posted September 7, 2014 Posted September 7, 2014 What is scientists find DNA evidence that disagrees with your conclusion? What if scientists find DNA evidence that proves that Joseph Smith had children with one of his wives? Would you change your mind? Or would you be like ERayR? Every time DNA evidence disagrees with ERayR, he says it is only an interpretation. I am sure this is against one or more board rules. Would you like to withdraw it or do I report it?
SeekerB Posted September 8, 2014 Posted September 8, 2014 But what if I gain a different perspective beyond the veil... We may choose to do so depending on what God wants or requires for his children. GG Once the veil is lifted and our memories of premortal life are restored, our perception of many things will change.
MormonFreeThinker Posted September 8, 2014 Posted September 8, 2014 I am sure this is against one or more board rules. Would you like to withdraw it or do I report it? You have done the same thing, please report your comments first, thankyou.
Robert F. Smith Posted September 8, 2014 Posted September 8, 2014 Haha Robert Smith, I have not heard of "Name it and claim it." haha I'm even fine with being assigned a wife by God if it's by God.Also known as "Blab it and grab it."There are some charismatic Protestants out there who use such phrases as short for the belief in the Prosperity Gospel, i.e., the belief that being "saved" is accompanied by promised blessings -- including worldly prosperity.
Robert F. Smith Posted September 8, 2014 Posted September 8, 2014 I know what you mean.I settled the question in my mind several years ago. Like Zionslight, I studied the subject at length and came to the same conclusion she has. I don't promote my views but I do state them when the discussion goes that way.I'm sure there must be something wrong with my computer because everytime it comes up on here and I state my belief that Joseph was not a polygamist, my keyboard must write something like "I hate you all" or "I hope your mother dies in a freak boating accident", judging by the venom and ill feeling that comes back at me.Never mind, each to their own.Venom and hate-filled condemnation? Perhaps you would like to quote any such statements, along with the date, post #, and URL. I don't believe that you have experienced this here on MDDB. If you cannot support your false statements here with an adequate CFR, then you need to formally withdraw them and apologize.
Alan Posted September 8, 2014 Posted September 8, 2014 Robert F. Smith,In previous threads on this subject I have been called all sorts of things and described in very unflattering terms because of my stated belief and my unwillingness to change it. I'm not going to trawl through all that now, even if I knew how to. But I'm certainly not going to withdraw anything I have said, because it's true.
Alan Posted September 8, 2014 Posted September 8, 2014 FreeMormon Thinker,And what if no such DNA evidence is ever found? In fact, what if all the available DNA evidence points the other way (as it currently does)? Would you change your mind?
MormonFreeThinker Posted September 8, 2014 Posted September 8, 2014 (edited) FreeMormon Thinker,And what if no such DNA evidence is ever found? In fact, what if all the available DNA evidence points the other way (as it currently does)? Would you change your mind? I want to believe that Joseph Smith did not practice polygamy, but the historical evidence points to polygamy. The evidence doesn't care about what I want. Absence of DNA evidence doesn't prove that Joseph Smith only had one wife, but if you can show me good evidence that proves that Joseph Smith was not a polygamist, I will happily change my mind. What about you? If DNA evidence is found in the future, will you change your mind? Can you name one LDS Historian that doesn't believe that Joseph Smith was a polygamist? ERayR, does my question sound familiar? Edited September 8, 2014 by MormonFreeThinker
Alan Posted September 8, 2014 Posted September 8, 2014 (edited) MormonFree Thinker,You're right, the absence of DNA evidence does not prove that Joseph was not involved in polygamy. But it does prove that the women involved were lying (because they said their children were Joseph's). That alone proves that some women at least lied about the nature of their relationship with Joseph. Why would they do that? What was their motivation?Interesting questions. However, this does suggest that the various claims of so-called polygamous wives of Joseph are seriously questionable, and that their testimony alone is unreliable, no matter how many affidivits they swore. Then we have the public testimony of Joseph himself. There is no wiggle room with this. It is unequivocal and utterly devastating to the "Joseph was a polygamist" viewpoint if they also want to hold to the view that Joseph was a truthful man. When he categorically denied his involvement he was either telling the truth or he was lying. Just like when he said he saw the Lord, or an angel, or translated the plates; he was either telling the truth or he was lying. I choose to believe he was telling the truth on all occasions. I can't name an LDS historian who doesn't believe that Joseph was a polygamist, but that should not surprise anyone. There have been some RLDS ones though. Edited September 8, 2014 by Alan
MormonFreeThinker Posted September 9, 2014 Posted September 9, 2014 (edited) Then we have the public testimony of Joseph himself. There is no wiggle room with this. It is unequivocal and utterly devastating to the "Joseph was a polygamist" viewpoint if they also want to hold to the view that Joseph was a truthful man. Joseph Smith changed the meaning of words to avoid trouble, Joseph Smith did not practice polygamy (worldly plural marriage), but practiced plural marriage of God. How do you explain Abraham 2:24-25? https://www.lds.org/scriptures/pgp/abr/2.24?lang=eng#24 Edited September 9, 2014 by MormonFreeThinker
Alan Posted September 9, 2014 Posted September 9, 2014 Sarah was Abraham's (half) sister according to the OT. So I don't think it requires explanation.
MormonFreeThinker Posted September 9, 2014 Posted September 9, 2014 Sarah was Abraham's (half) sister according to the OT. So I don't think it requires explanation. Can you quote the scripture? Which scripture?
ERayR Posted September 9, 2014 Posted September 9, 2014 Can you quote the scripture? Which scripture? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarah
MormonFreeThinker Posted September 9, 2014 Posted September 9, 2014 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarah "We too often confuse belief with truth, thinking that because something makes sense or is convenient, it must be true. Conversely, we sometimes don’t believe truth or reject it—because it would require us to change or admit that we were wrong. Often, truth is rejected because it doesn’t appear to be consistent with previous experiences" -Elder Uchtdorf
Alan Posted September 9, 2014 Posted September 9, 2014 Nevo,All DNA tests on suspected descendants (from plural wives) of Joseph to date have come up negative.
Traela Posted September 9, 2014 Posted September 9, 2014 Just throwing a question out here, would women who had been sealed JS consider any subsequent children his, regardless of who the physical father was?
JLHPROF Posted September 9, 2014 Posted September 9, 2014 Just throwing a question out here, would women who had been sealed JS consider any subsequent children his, regardless of who the physical father was? At the time if the wife considered herself part of her sealed husband's eternal family then yes, any of her children would be considered his, especially in eternity. At least, that's how it used to be. With our "we don't know" attitude today who knows?
JLHPROF Posted September 9, 2014 Posted September 9, 2014 Then we have the public testimony of Joseph himself. There is no wiggle room with this. It is unequivocal and utterly devastating to the "Joseph was a polygamist" viewpoint if they also want to hold to the view that Joseph was a truthful man. When he categorically denied his involvement he was either telling the truth or he was lying. Just like when he said he saw the Lord, or an angel, or translated the plates; he was either telling the truth or he was lying. I choose to believe he was telling the truth on all occasions. Not to me. To me Joseph 100% lied and so he should have. It was "Pearls Before Swine", even to the members of the Church. He dared to hint plural marriage to them once and there was such an uproar he had to get up and unpreach it later that day. In my opinion it was clearly one of the main doctrines referred to when he made his statement about the difficulty of getting things into the heads of that generation (corn dodger for a wedge/pumpkin for a beetle). So, yes, Joseph lied. Just as the Lord required him to. The gospel required him to "keep a secret" but others like John C. Bennett were making it impossible to do so, leaving him with the only choice open - dissemble on the subject.
ERayR Posted September 9, 2014 Posted September 9, 2014 (edited) That is absolutely false. DNA evidence has not proven anything of the sort. But you already know that because you've been corrected about this many, many times. Edited September 9, 2014 by ERayR
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