Ok There Seems To Be A Problem With Polygamy In The Church's Past

[Alan]

MormonFree Thinker,

Historians believe JS practiced polygamy because of their interpretation of the evidence.

Evidence can be interpreted in different ways. I happen to believe that a lack of unimpeachable evidence is significant. There is no high quality contemporary evidence that Joseph practiced polygamy. We have affidavits a-plenty written years and even decades after the time, we have back-written church history which we know for sure put words into Joseph's mouth to make it appear that he approved of plural marriage when, in fact, he had actually said the exact opposite..... the list goes on.

Like I said before, there is a lot of evidence that Joseph did practice it, but it is poor quality. However, the more weighty evidence (meaning a more reliable provenance), to my mind anyway, points the other way.

You won't change my mind on this my friend.

Anyway, each to his own.

[MormonFreeThinker]

MormonFree Thinker,

Historians believe JS practiced polygamy because of their interpretation of the evidence.

Evidence can be interpreted in different ways. I happen to believe that a lack of unimpeachable evidence is significant. There is no high quality contemporary evidence that Joseph practiced polygamy. We have affidavits a-plenty written years and even decades after the time, we have back-written church history which we know for sure put words into Joseph's mouth to make it appear that he approved of plural marriage when, in fact, he had actually said the exact opposite..... the list goes on.

Like I said before, there is a lot of evidence that Joseph did practice it, but it is poor quality. However, the more weighty evidence (meaning a more reliable provenance), to my mind anyway, points the other way.

You won't change my mind on this my friend.

Anyway, each to his own.

 

Why do all serious historians believe that Joseph Smith practice polygamy if the evidence is so poor? 

[MormonFreeThinker]

MormonFree Thinker,

Historians believe JS practiced polygamy because of their interpretation of the evidence.

Evidence can be interpreted in different ways.

 

Sounds familiar ERayR? You say the same thing about Macro-Evolution, but the evidences for Macro-Evolution are a lot stronger. 

[JLHPROF]

How many wives did Adam have?

It seems pretty clear that the original marriage, conducted by God himself in the Garden, was of one man and one woman. So I would suggest that is the norm and God's preferred arrangement. He even instructed Adam (ie. all of us) to "cleave unto they wife (note the singular) and none else" There was therefore no room for Adam to take a plural wife or he would have been cleaving unto an "else".

 

Not even close:

 

“Now hear it, O inhabitants of the earth, Jew and Gentile, Saint and Sinner! When OUR FATHER ADAM came into the the garden of Eden, he came into it with a celestial body, and brought Eve, ONE OF HIS WIVES WITH HIM.”

Brigham Young -Journal of Discourses, Vol. 1, page 50

 

Add to that the fact that God gave Adam a wife (Lilith according to Jewish folklore) in Genesis 1:26-27

"So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth."

 

And then proceeded to create a second wife (Eve) in Genesis 2:21-23:

"And the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;

And the rib, which the Lord God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.

And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man."

 

And finally, according to the Adam-God theory (which I know you reject but still exists) Adam was the Father of Christ and Mary his Mother indicating at least a third wife for Adam...

 

And as for the "else" argument, if there is more than one wife, then there is no breaking of the commandment to cleave only to a wife and noone else.  Simple logic.

 

So no, in Mormonism monogamy is not the "norm" from the beginning.

Edited September 2, 2014 by JLHPROF

[ERayR]

Sounds familiar ERayR? You say the same thing about Macro-Evolution, but the evidences for Macro-Evolution are a lot stronger. 

 

Are you trying to hijack this thread?

[VideoGameJunkie]

I'm willing to accept polygamy in the spirit world and eternities. I just wouldn't be able to handle it on earth. Finding one wife is a life long goal for me. But God blessed all these prophets with wives and or concubines.

[Tacenda]

I don't agree that God had anything to do with blessing prophets with wives and concubines. That was the kings and the so called prophets doing.

Edited September 3, 2014 by Tacenda

[ERayR]

I don't agree that God had anything to do with blessing prophets with wives and concubines. That was the kings and the so called prophets doing.

 

So Called Prophets!!!!  You think that Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses we all "So Called Prophets"!!!!  What do you think they really were?

[Calm]

I don't agree that God had anything to do with blessing prophets with wives and concubines. That was the kings and the so called prophets doing.

So you don't believe the Bible then?

[Robert F. Smith]

MormonFree Thinker,

Historians believe JS practiced polygamy because of their interpretation of the evidence.

Evidence can be interpreted in different ways.

Of course, but history is never facts, but only interpretation of facts.  All serious historians accept that Joseph Smith practiced polygyny, not because they want to, but because of solid, convincing evidence.

Take, for example, the former RLDS Church Historian (History Commissioner) Richard P. Howard.  He had no desire to believe that Joseph practiced polygyny, but was forced to take that position based on excellent evidence.  He talks about that in his “RLDS Change Their Tune,” Sunstone Review, 3/11-12 (Nov-Dec 1983), 10, and in his Sept 24, 1983, John Whitmer Historical Society lecture and paper (approved by the RLDS First Presidency) showing that Joseph Smith Jr had practiced polygyny and that it was an inevitable result of the doctrine of baptism for the dead.  The paper was published in the JWHA Journal.  However, see the discussion in Sunstone Review, 4/1 (Jan 1984), 5, in which  “RLDS First Presidency Clarifies Polygamy Issue,” citing the official RLDS statement in Saints Herald, Dec 15, 1983.  Up until that time, RLDS Church members had claimed vehemently that it was all an invention of Brigham Young.

 

I happen to believe that a lack of unimpeachable evidence is significant. There is no high quality contemporary evidence that Joseph practiced polygamy. We have affidavits a-plenty written years and even decades after the time, we have back-written church history which we know for sure put words into Joseph's mouth to make it appear that he approved of plural marriage when, in fact, he had actually said the exact opposite..... the list goes on.

Like I said before, there is a lot of evidence that Joseph did practice it, but it is poor quality. However, the more weighty evidence (meaning a more reliable provenance), to my mind anyway, points the other way.

You won't change my mind on this my friend.

Anyway, each to his own.

Richard Howard used to speak to me about "invincible ignorance."  There are none so blind as they who will not see.

[Tacenda]

So Called Prophets!!!! You think that Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses we all "So Called Prophets"!!!! What do you think they really were?

Well, last Sunday we discussed King Solomon in a primary class, the sub gave a very good lesson that he may have given bad advice and that we're to go straight to the Lord and pray about their teachings to be sure it's correct. I just don't believe all are prophets...sorry.

[Tacenda]

So you don't believe the Bible then?

Not all of it. I won't believe some of it.

[VideoGameJunkie]

If Brigham Young was so outspoken on his use of polygamy, wouldn't it make sense that Joseph Smith did it too, considering Brigham Young was his successor and protégé?

[ERayR]

Not all of it. I won't believe some of it.

 

That is the same mindset that says they were only a prophet when they agree with me.  Sorry it doesn't really work that way.

[Robert F. Smith]

Except that this is simply not in evidence.  Monogamy was NOT the Lord's commanded norm at any point in history except for the following:

 

1. Jacob 2 where men were living it wickedly and it had to be withdrawn.

2. During the great apostasy when the Roman pagan tradition merged with the early Christian Church, which was not by God's command.

3. 1890 and OD1 (or to be more precise 1904 onward and the 2nd Manifesto) when it was withdrawn for political reasons.

 

In other words, it has only been the norm for a tiny fraction of earths history, and there are ONLY two recorded times when God directly outlawed it.

From Adam till Christ it was a perfectly acceptable form of marriage, even in the eyes of God.  From Christ to Joseph Smith when the gospel was not on the earth it became a forbidden form of marriage.

That should tell us something about what happened in 1890.

What do you believe about the status of the long-standing Muslim practice of polygyny?  Or of the Jewish Sephardic practice of polygyny until recently?  What of other peoples who practice or who have practiced polygyny, or polyandry?  Would you suggest (with St. Paul) that they who have not the Law are a law unto themselves?

 

For example, if a polygynist in Africa converts to Mormonism, should he be required to divest himself of excess wives before baptism?  What then happens to those wives and children?  Who will care for them?  The State of Israel adopted a solution in 1948:  Henceforth no more polygynous marriages, but all those already entered into were legal (the grandfather clause).   The RLDS Church adopted something like this latter policy in Africa in the past.  It seemed the humane thing to do.  Would that appeal to you? 

[mormonnewb]

Not all of it. I won't believe some of it.

 

And besides, even those of us who believe "all" of it can't seem to agree on what it says, so we all pick and choose what to believe to some extent.

[JLHPROF]

If Brigham Young was so outspoken on his use of polygamy, wouldn't it make sense that Joseph Smith did it too, considering Brigham Young was his successor and protégé?

 

Brigham called Joseph "the most married man in Nauvoo".  Any reputable historian estimates 30 wives +.  Joseph said it was restored as a commandment.

 

The only difference between Joseph & Brigham's polygamy is the same difference between the endowment under Joseph and under Brigham.  Brigham systematized and organized and popularized the institution.  But those who say Brigham changed the polygamy Joseph practiced are just looking for excuses again.

[ERayR]

If Brigham Young was so outspoken on his use of polygamy, wouldn't it make sense that Joseph Smith did it too, considering Brigham Young was his successor and protégé?

 

Polygamy is only a part of the criticisms of Brother Brigham.

[VideoGameJunkie]

It's hard handling polygamy in this life, with the restrictions we have on this earth and tax problems and such, but I believe it can easily be handled in heaven, so I wouldn't be surprised if Brigham Young was right and that polygamy is necessary for godhood and that the righteous men will take on more wives in the spirit world.

[VideoGameJunkie]

ERayR, what are the other criticisms of Brigham?

[VideoGameJunkie]

JLHPROF I read on wiki that Brigham had more wives than Joseph and you know wiki would never lie.

[Calm]

"that polygamy is necessary for godhood and that the righteous men will take on more wives in the spirit world."

Why?

Edited September 3, 2014 by calmoriah

[VideoGameJunkie]

Why what?

[Calm]

See edited post

[VideoGameJunkie]

Because Brigham Young taught it and it seems like a lot of the prophets who are guaranteed exaltation have practiced polygamy so I would assume it might be a characteristic of it.