VideoGameJunkie Posted August 31, 2014 Posted August 31, 2014 I didn't know much about the polygamy of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young until I read up on it. I had no idea that Brigham Young had 55 wives and 57 children with 16 of his wives and only 46 of his 57 children reached adulthood. And I found out he was being sealed to women who already had husbands. I also found out that Joseph Smith was being sealed to many wives including a 14 year old a couple 16 year olds and a 17 year old including married women as well. After hearing all this, it leaves me with a couple thoughts. One is they claim they did this so they could be exalted. Well if that were really the case we'd all be practicing polygamy right now to gain our exaltation. The second thought is these guys are supposed to be our leaders and who we base our faith in. I understand how learning this history can have a damaging affect on someone's faith, especially women. And why don't we still practice it today if it's necessary? Just because the country makes it illegal and all of a sudden a revelation comes saying the church will no longer practice it. Coincidence or depriving the biggest chance at exaltation just because of a law? Tell me your thoughts because I've been a member my whole life, and knew somewhat about polygamy, but never this much detail. I'm a little shocked right now.
rpn Posted August 31, 2014 Posted August 31, 2014 Polygamy is a commandment ONLY when God specifically directs it. Just because HE directed them to do it, doesn't mean that He has directed us to do. 1
BookofMormonLuvr Posted August 31, 2014 Posted August 31, 2014 Thus one of the reasons that I arrived at my "3rd Option" concerning polygamy...I believe Utah leaders abused the privilege and made it something bigger than it should be- and RLDS leaders were too quick to reject any and all forms of it.I believe both churches missed the point that it is a family matter to be decided upon between a husband and wife and no one else. It doesn't exalt a person, nor is it the mortal sin it has been made out to be. It is just a marriage arrangement that falls within the parameters of scripture when entered into correctly.
VideoGameJunkie Posted August 31, 2014 Author Posted August 31, 2014 Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob practiced it and they were exalted, and Brigham Young said only those who practice it will be exalted, so the church and American laws are screwing us over by not allowing us our exaltation then. 1
BookofMormonLuvr Posted August 31, 2014 Posted August 31, 2014 (edited) 14 year-olds then are not the 14 year-olds of today. Book of Jasher says Rebecca was 10 when Isaac married her (not saying that is proper for today)... Jasher 24:38 And Eliezer related to them all his concerns, and that he was Abraham's servant, and they greatly rejoiced at him. 39 And they all blessed the Lord who brought this thing about, and they gave him Rebecca, the daughter of Bethuel, for a wife for Isaac. 40 And the young woman was of very comely appearance, she was a virgin, and Rebecca was ten years old in those days. 41 And Bethuel and Laban and his children made a feast on that night, and Eliezer and his men came and ate and drank and rejoiced there on that night. 42 And Eliezer rose up in the morning, he and the men that were with him, and he called to the whole household of Bethuel, saying, Send me away that I may go to my master; and they rose up and sent away Rebecca and her nurse Deborah, the daughter of Uz, and they gave her silver and gold, men servants and maid servants, and they blessed her. 43 And they sent Eliezer away with his men; and the servants took Rebecca, and he went and returned to his master to the land of Canaan. 44 And Isaac took Rebecca and she became his wife, and he brought her into the tent. 45 And Isaac was forty years old when he took Rebecca, the daughter of his uncle Bethuel, for a wife. Edited August 31, 2014 by BookofMormonLuvr
JLHPROF Posted August 31, 2014 Posted August 31, 2014 Ya, but 14 year olds? Different time. When you read the Nauvoo temple records there were many young men receving their ordinances between 15-18 who were then married to their wives 14-17. This idea of the 18 year old adult didn't hit until well into the 20th century. It's like, oh wow, Joseph had a 14 year old wife. Well, so did the 16 year old guy next to him. It was not the norm, but it also wasn't strange. 2
BookofMormonLuvr Posted August 31, 2014 Posted August 31, 2014 (edited) Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob practiced it and they were exalted, and Brigham Young said only those who practice it will be exalted, so the church and American laws are screwing us over by not allowing us our exaltation then. I think Brigham was wrong in teaching that we must practice it to be exalted, and I believe the example of Abraham and Jacob (Isaac was a monogamist) show that the practice does not merit exclusion from Celestial Glory either. Edited August 31, 2014 by BookofMormonLuvr
Duncan Posted August 31, 2014 Posted August 31, 2014 I think to gain exaltation we need to listen to God today, whatever circumstances we are in but the same Gospel that saved the ancients saves us today. So, I see polygamy as not being essential (if it was then Christ would have done so as would have Peter and everyone else) to exaltation but listening to God is-and that's something everyone should do. I don't base my faith in leaders but I gain my own witness from God's witnesses
thatjimguy Posted August 31, 2014 Posted August 31, 2014 Thus one of the reasons that I arrived at my "3rd Option" concerning polygamy...I believe Utah leaders abused the privilege and made it something bigger than it should be- and RLDS leaders were too quick to reject any and all forms of it.I believe both churches missed the point that it is a family matter to be decided upon between a husband and wife and no one else. It doesn't exalt a person, nor is it the mortal sin it has been made out to be. It is just a marriage arrangement that falls within the parameters of scripture when entered into correctly. Didn't Brigham Young say it absolutely did and was required of Godhood? 1
erdoch Posted August 31, 2014 Posted August 31, 2014 Elder Christoffersen, in speaking at BYU-Idaho about a year ago, quoted a poem about "a little learning" being a dangerous thing. I think polygamy is one of those subjects that takes more learning and grappling with before it can be understood. In fact, I just started reading vol. 1 of Brian Hales' three volume work on Joseph Smith and polygamy. I get that polygamy sounds horrible to so many, especially to women. I get the pain and the suffering, both of women in polygamy having to share their husband with someone else, and of some women today in the Church who are afraid or uncomfortable about the idea of polygamy being practiced in heaven. I also admit that I might not get it completely, that I probably do not fully understand because I don't share those experiences... But at least I am trying to understand. At the same time, it is difficult for me as a believing member to not accept some divine providence behind the practice of polygamy. Joseph Smith, according to several accounts, did not jump into polygamy but hesitated to follow what was according to him a commandment from God - an angel even threatened him with a sword before he obeyed. According to one of his plural wives, Mary Elizabeth Rollins Lightner, Joseph Smith even "told [the angel] it was an abomination and quoted scripture to him. He said in the Book of Mormon it was an abomination in the eyes of the Lord, and they were to adhere to these things except the Lord speak... the angel came to me three times between the years of 1834 and 1842 and said I was to obey that principle or he would slay me" (Quoted in Brian Hales Joseph Smith and Polygamy, Vol 1, p. 220). Women who prayed about the principle also received revelation that it was right for them to enter into. I accept those revelations as valid and hence, that God was behind polygamy. I also think the Church under Brigham Young may have gone way overboard (especially in the Mormon Reformation) with the practice. I am okay accepting some divine providence behind polygamy and also okay viewing the practice as being implemented imperfectly and overzealously at times in the church. One thing to note: while Brigham Young sometimes stated that polygamy was required for exaltation, he other times clarified that it was more a general acceptance of the principle that was required for exaltation. Clarifications were made that one could enter the Celestial Kingdom being married to just one wife. So, yes, Mormon fundamentalists latch on - probably quite honest enough - onto statements made that seem to make polygamy mandatory for entrance into the Celestial Kingdom... but those quotes have to be situated within their context and the recognition that not everyone entering the Celestial Kingdom would be a polygamist. Anyways, I don't really have too many answers, but I do think this is a subject where "a little learning" just isn't enough. 2
JLHPROF Posted August 31, 2014 Posted August 31, 2014 Didn't Brigham Young say it absolutely did and was required of Godhood? Yes. And so did all the GA's to varying degrees between 1852 and 1890. For 38 years it was publically proclaimed as necessary to be exalted. Prior to 1852 and after 1890 it was only lived by those who believed it to be necessary for their exaltation but that teaching was ceased publically.
JLHPROF Posted August 31, 2014 Posted August 31, 2014 I think Brigham was wrong in teaching that we must practice it to be exalted, and I believe the example of Abraham and Jacob (Isaac was a monogamist) show that the practice does not merit exclusion from Celestial Glory either. Isaac wasn't a monogamist. D&C 132 tells us he was a polygamist too.
BookofMormonLuvr Posted August 31, 2014 Posted August 31, 2014 Didn't Brigham Young say it absolutely did and was required of Godhood?He did... and I don't believe him on this or other things.I have officially dubbed myself as an "Unorthodox Latter Day Saint". I try to follow scripture the best I can, I listen to other's POV, and I come to my own conclusions. I now, personally, accept virtually all lines of Priesthood originating from Joseph and Oliver and accept all baptisms and bestowal's of the Holy Ghost performed by such- though I do not accept female ordination or any ordinances performed by females or those ordained by females. 1
erdoch Posted August 31, 2014 Posted August 31, 2014 I copied these quotes from another polygamy discussion elsewhere: "It is the word of the Lord, and I wish to say to you, and all the world, that if you desire with all your hearts to obtain the blessings which Abraham obtained, you will be polygamists at least in your faith, or you will come short of enjoying the salvation and the glory which Abraham has obtained. This is as true as that God lives. You who wish that there were no such thing in existence, if you have in your hearts to say: “We will pass along in the Church without obeying or submitting to it in our faith or believing this order, because, for aught that we know, this community may be broken up yet, and we may have lucrative offices offered to us; we will not, therefore, be polygamists lest we should fail in obtaining some earthly honor, character and office, etc,”—the man that has that in his heart, and will continue to persist in pursuing that policy, will come short of dwelling in the presence of the Father and the Son, in celestial glory. The only men who become Gods, even the Sons of God, are those who enter into polygamy. Others attain unto a glory and may even be permitted to come into the presence of the Father and the Son; but they cannot reign as kings in glory, because they had blessings offered unto them, and they refused to accept them.” Brigham Young, “Remarks by President Brigham Young, in the Bowery, in G.S.L. City,” (19 August 1866) Journal of Discourses 11:268-269. “I attended the school of the prophets. Brother John Holeman made a long speech upon the subject of Poligamy. He Contended that no person Could have a Celestial glory unless He had a plurality of wives. Speeches were made By L. E. Harrington O Pratt Erastus Snow, D Evans J. F. Smith Lorenzo Young. President Young said there would be men saved in the Celestial Kingdom of God with one wife with Many wives & with No wife at all. Wilford Woodruff, Wilford Woodruff’s Journal, 9 vols., ed., Scott G. Kenny (Salt Lake City: Signature Books, 1985), 6:527 (journal entry dated 12 February 1870). And “Then President Young spoke 58 Minuts [sic]. He said a Man may Embrace the Law of Celestial Marriage in his heart & not take the Second wife & be justified before the Lord.”Wilford Woodruff, Wilford Woodruff’s Journal, 9 vols., ed., Scott G. Kenny (Salt Lake City: Signature Books, 1985), 7:31 (journal entry dated 24 September 1871). Other leaders also made remarks about Young to the same effect: When a debate in the School of the Prophets arose when one claimed that “no man who has only one wife in this probation can ever enter [the] Celestial kingdom,” both Wilford Woodruff and John Taylor disagreed. Brian C. Hales, Joseph Smith’s Polygamy Volume 3: Theology (Salt Lake City, Utah: Greg Kofford Books, 2013), 208. citing Salt Lake City School of the Prophets, Minutes (10 February 1873). 2
BookofMormonLuvr Posted August 31, 2014 Posted August 31, 2014 Isaac wasn't a monogamist. D&C 132 tells us he was a polygamist too.OK. well the OT never makes any such indication- besides I believe that 132 is either fake, false, or tampered with. So it's counsel means very little to me.
JLHPROF Posted August 31, 2014 Posted August 31, 2014 OK. well the OT never makes any such indication- besides I believe that 132 is either fake, false, or tampered with. So it's counsel means very little to me. Well, without D&C 132 there is absolutley no justification for ANY polygamy in our dispensation. I think your RLDS/CC beliefs are clouding the practice of polygamy by Joseph and his contemporaries.
VideoGameJunkie Posted August 31, 2014 Author Posted August 31, 2014 If there is polygamy in heaven and it's necessary for exaltation, then I will accept it.
cdowis Posted August 31, 2014 Posted August 31, 2014 (edited) Some of the wives of BY never had intimate relations with him Can you figure out for yourself BY's purpose behind such an arrangement, such a marriage? Edited August 31, 2014 by cdowis
JLHPROF Posted August 31, 2014 Posted August 31, 2014 If there is polygamy in heaven and it's necessary for exaltation, then I will accept it. Then you will lose nothing if you are prevented from living it here. Just as with Nephi, God only expects us to complete those task he prepares a way for. If God wanted you to live polygamy then 1. you would be able to and 2. the leaders would let you now.
Rivers Posted August 31, 2014 Posted August 31, 2014 Elder Christoffersen, in speaking at BYU-Idaho about a year ago, quoted a poem about "a little learning" being a dangerous thing. I think polygamy is one of those subjects that takes more learning and grappling with before it can be understood. In fact, I just started reading vol. 1 of Brian Hales' three volume work on Joseph Smith and polygamy. Anyways, I don't really have too many answers, but I do think this is a subject where "a little learning" just isn't enough.I think you hit the nail on the head there. I think that is a problem a lot of struggling members have. They are too quick to get hung up on difficult issues when they only have a shallow understanding of them. 2
Rivers Posted August 31, 2014 Posted August 31, 2014 (edited) If there is polygamy in heaven and it's necessary for exaltation, then I will accept it.I don't think is polygamy is necessary for all people individually. But I can understand that it would need to exist in heaven. Brian Hales suggests that polygamy needs to exist to allow all faithful people to be sealed to someone. But this explanation is based on the assumption that there will be more women than men in the celestial kingom. Edited August 31, 2014 by Rivers
BookofMormonLuvr Posted August 31, 2014 Posted August 31, 2014 Well, without D&C 132 there is absolutley no justification for ANY polygamy in our dispensation. I think your RLDS/CC beliefs are clouding the practice of polygamy by Joseph and his contemporaries.Please, do not confuse me with the CofC in the future. And though I am currently associated with the RLDS Restoration Movement I have my own brain and study the scriptures for myself.My personal conclusion, which now accepts the practice of polygamy for families who feel so lead in real time, not when a man gives them permission, comes from my reading of scripture.
Duncan Posted August 31, 2014 Posted August 31, 2014 This is another example of if the idea conforms with the Standard works then great but if it doesn't we can throw it out, Do the scriptures you need to be a polygamist to be exalted? to me that's the question. If the scriptures don't say it then it doesn't matter who said what 2
Rivers Posted August 31, 2014 Posted August 31, 2014 This is another example of if the idea conforms with the Standard works then great but if it doesn't we can throw it out, Do the scriptures you need to be a polygamist to be exalted? to me that's the question. If the scriptures don't say it then it doesn't matter who said whatEspecially when it is denounced by current prophets. 2
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