Was Lucifer Really The Bad Guy In The War In Heaven?

[Ahab]

Just my current thinking on the matter:

According to 2 Nephi 2:15-16, it seems the Fall was engineered around opposing things (“fruit”) to be acted upon in order to bring about God’s eternal purposes in the end of man.

“And to bring about his eternal purposes in the end of man, after he had created our first parents, and the beasts of the field and the fowls of the air, and in fine, all things which are created, it must needs be that there was an opposition; even the forbidden fruit in opposition to the tree of life; the one being sweet and the other bitter. Wherefore, the Lord God gave unto man that he should act for himself. Wherefore, man could not act for himself save it should be that he was enticed by the one or the other.”

One fruit was sweet, the other bitter. I understand this can be construed to mean that one was “good” and the other “evil” but if they were literal fruits, not so. But the enticement had to come from something other than their respective properties, since we all know that sweet is enticing and bitterness is not. The enticement had to come from Adam and Eve’s subjective interpretation of the fruit’s appearance and to the instructions they received from the Lord.

It seems to me that the needful things for God’s eternal purposes were 1) opposing and enticing elements so that man should act for himself, and 2) instructions on how to proceed and the consequences (Genesis 2:16-17). So I think there could have been various ways in which that Adam and Eve found the forbidden, bitter fruit sufficiently enticing for the Fall to come about.

I think of the "fruit" of the tree as the "thing" that gave them the knowledge of good and evil, along with the ability to tell the difference between good and evil, so while trying to understand the story I think it's important to think about what it was about eating that fruit that could have given them the knowledge of good and evil, which to me is all about knowing the difference between God and Satan, and what each one tells us, with one of them being good and the other one evil.

I think that before they ate that fruit they didn't really know which person was good, and which person was evil. I think they simply saw and heard different people telling them different things, without knowing one person was telling them something that was good and true while the other person was telling them something which was evil and a lie although the lie was partially true.

It wasn't until they ate the fruit that they could tell which one was good, our good Father, and the other was their evil brother. They didn't even know he was their brother, before their eyes were opened (again) to see that truth. The fruit itself could have simply been an apple, too, for all that it matters. They just needed "something" which would cause them to know which person was good and which one was evil, and the act of eating that fruit is what opened their eyes.

Edited July 15, 2014 by Ahab

[JLHPROF]

Satan started out perfect in his creation and was in a position of authority next to God in heaven. But then sin entered his heart with pride and envy. He then fell into that path of sin and wanting justification for it. He wished to usurp the kingdom by becoming the Son of God into mortality and gaining immortality from which he could reign forever in his wickedness. That is why he said "here I am send me" (meaning the only begotten into mortality). His plans though were not to save anyone but exalt himself with the glory of immortality in the heavens and reign forever with a wicked hand. His ultimate plan was to bring into subjection all the souls of Gods children under his wicked hand and rule over them unrighteously forever building up a kingdom of wickedness in eternity. Being denied a body was the first result of Gods intelligent plan so that he could not rule over the body in eternity having no power therein by immortality as a gift. Second in Gods plan was toprovide the Savior to ensure the agency that we are endowed with is not eternally destroyed by Satan's plans to rule over us. The third part of the plan is the destruction of the devil and his angels and this is in the process of happening now- the framework being laid for his destruction. This destruction will be by totally cutting him off from all light and truth where he and his angels will self disentigtrate and have no more power ever again in the eternities. Satan was not genuine in his plans in heaven. He wanted to continue living in pride and honor above others sinning at will and on top of that he wanted the glory of an immortal body in eternity to reign over his minions unjustly forever and ever. He wanted to become the ultimate evil slavemaster.

 

And you say some of my conclusions aren't scriptural?   There's stuff in here that has no basis in scripture (along with quite a bit of truth I will admit).

 

Main problem #1 - " His plans though were not to save anyone but exalt himself with the glory of immortality in the heavens and reign forever with a wicked hand."

 

If nobody was saved there would be nobody to reign over and he also wouldn't be resurrected.  Lucifer's plan HAD to include a way to resurrect people (and himself) in order to gain immortality or else they would stay as spirits with unresurrected bodies eternally.

And since eternal law dictates that it is sin of any kind that keeps us in the grave unresurrected and only by paying the price of that sin (which is always death scripturally) could a person be resurrected to immortal life.  It would be impossible to be resurrected with sin upon us.  That's scriptural fact.  Christ paid the price for our sins so that we didn't have to stay dead.  Lucifer understood eternal law well enough to know that he would have no resurrection and nobody to reign over in glory if the price of sin wasn't paid.  He had a plan.  We just don't know all the details.

[Calm]

I think of the "fruit" of the tree as the "thing" that gave them the knowledge of good and evil, along with the ability to tell the difference between good and evil, so while trying to understand the story I think it's important to think about what it was about eating that fruit that could have given them the knowledge of good and evil, which to me is all about knowing the difference between God and Satan, and what each one tells us, with one of them being good and the other one evil.

I think that before they ate that fruit they didn't really know which person was good, and which person was evil. I think they simply saw and heard different people telling them different things, without knowing one person was telling them something that was good and true while the other person was telling them something which was evil and a lie although the lie was partially true.

It wasn't until they ate the fruit that they could tell which one was good, our good Father, and the other was their evil brother. They didn't even know he was their brother, before their eyes were opened (again) to see that truth. The fruit itself could have simply been an apple, too, for all that it matters. They just needed "something" which would cause them to know which person was good and which one was evil, and the act of eating that fruit is what opened their eyes.

Or the eating of fruit is symbolic for a much more complicated and involved and taking longer act...

[stemelbow]

Lucifer "took one for the team"... that's a pretty big self sacrifice: eternal damnation. Personally, I don't buy it. He was and is a rebel and false accuser and there is not one whit of self sacrifice about him.

That's because you only know the role he is playing, you don't know him. he's playing the role aptly so as to benefit you. Play along. It could get you eternal salvation.

[CV75]

Lucifer "took one for the team"... that's a pretty big self sacrifice: eternal damnation. Personally, I don't buy it. He was and is a rebel and false accuser and there is not one whit of self sacrifice about him.

 

 

@CV75, I think one of the scriptures most wrested by Latter-day Saints is "opposition in all things". A choice, option A, option B, etc. is the opposition, I do not think it necessitates the necessary presence of an intelligent, active opposition. I agree with that other worlds had other ways whereby the Fall occurred. Personally I think at some point Adam and Eve would have had the opposing options 1) not eat the forbidden fruit and 2) stay and enjoy the care free life of the Garden of Eden flipped. That swapping of God preferred options dependent upon the proper preparation and readiness of the primal mortal parents. Where once God said don't he would have asked them do. What wouldn't change would be their choice. Adam and Eve would not be forced.

Admittedly that's not the mainstream position. They preference I see most often in Latter-day Saints* is that Lucifer was a patsy and Eve was smart enough to fool Satan by doing what Satan asked -- because she reasoned that doing what God expressly commanded her not to do was not what the forever honest God really wanted her to do, and this even though her silly husband wasn't smart enough to see it.

 

* I've seen this preference at pretty much all levels -- even though Paul pointedly disagreed with the position.

Yes--the Lord gave the warning command but did not entice them one way or the other; He only educated them of death being the consequence of touching the forbidden fruit. I suppose their enticement to not partake was their own trust in God and their fear of death, and being in the presence of the Lord, did not require His active enticement.* But as you pointed out, this could have changed as they came to realize the need for mortality, with or without further instruction from the Lord.

 

It was Lucifer who, not knowing the mind of the Lord, put effort into enticing them to partake of the forbidden fruit. He put forth effort where none was really needed; if he was going to be here anyway, from our perspective he could just as well have waited to tempt man until after mortality was freely chosen.

 

I think it is instructive that while man was actively enticed by the devil since before the Fall, we are have been actively enticed by the Holy Spirit only after the Fall as part of the redemptive effort (*and in a similar vein, the Gift of the Holy Ghost was not given in the meridian of time until after the Lord’s Ascension):

 

Mosiah 3: 19, “For the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit…”

 

Hel. 6: 26, “Now behold, those secret oaths and covenants …were put into the heart of Gadianton by that same being who did entice our first parents to partake of the forbidden fruit—”

 

2 Ne. 9: 39, “O, my beloved brethren, remember the awfulness in transgressing against that Holy God, and also the awfulness of yielding to the enticings of that cunning one…”

 

In our fallen condition, we would be absolutely lost without the light of Christ, the power of the Holy Ghost, and the Gift of the Holy Ghost.

[Bikeemikey]

I think of the "fruit" of the tree as the "thing" that gave them the knowledge of good and evil, along with the ability to tell the difference between good and evil, so while trying to understand the story I think it's important to think about what it was about eating that fruit that could have given them the knowledge of good and evil, which to me is all about knowing the difference between God and Satan, and what each one tells us, with one of them being good and the other one evil.

I think that before they ate that fruit they didn't really know which person was good, and which person was evil. I think they simply saw and heard different people telling them different things, without knowing one person was telling them something that was good and true while the other person was telling them something which was evil and a lie although the lie was partially true.

It wasn't until they ate the fruit that they could tell which one was good, our good Father, and the other was their evil brother. They didn't even know he was their brother, before their eyes were opened (again) to see that truth. The fruit itself could have simply been an apple, too, for all that it matters. They just needed "something" which would cause them to know which person was good and which one was evil, and the act of eating that fruit is what opened their eyes.

 

That seems possible but that condition would have been limited to the Garden and would not have applied to the pre-earth existence as people were clearly persuaded by different positions in the pre-earth council and were held accountable to those decisions.

[Bikeemikey]

And you say some of my conclusions aren't scriptural?   There's stuff in here that has no basis in scripture (along with quite a bit of truth I will admit).

 

Main problem #1 - " His plans though were not to save anyone but exalt himself with the glory of immortality in the heavens and reign forever with a wicked hand."

 

If nobody was saved there would be nobody to reign over and he also wouldn't be resurrected.  Lucifer's plan HAD to include a way to resurrect people (and himself) in order to gain immortality or else they would stay as spirits with unresurrected bodies eternally.

And since eternal law dictates that it is sin of any kind that keeps us in the grave unresurrected and only by paying the price of that sin (which is always death scripturally) could a person be resurrected to immortal life.  It would be impossible to be resurrected with sin upon us.  That's scriptural fact.  Christ paid the price for our sins so that we didn't have to stay dead.  Lucifer understood eternal law well enough to know that he would have no resurrection and nobody to reign over in glory if the price of sin wasn't paid.  He had a plan.  We just don't know all the details.

 

You can be resurrected with sin.

 

Moses was translated prior to Christs resurrection. His body was "resurrected" from it's temporal status to a terrestial status and would then later be celestialized during his "first resurrection".

 

Moses was not perfect at this point yet was resurrection. Likewise, resurrection can happen multiple times and does not require a person to be dead.

 

Though this is all semantics really.

Edited July 15, 2014 by Bikeemikey

[Rob Osborn]

And you say some of my conclusions aren't scriptural?   There's stuff in here that has no basis in scripture (along with quite a bit of truth I will admit).

 

Main problem #1 - " His plans though were not to save anyone but exalt himself with the glory of immortality in the heavens and reign forever with a wicked hand."

 

If nobody was saved there would be nobody to reign over and he also wouldn't be resurrected.  Lucifer's plan HAD to include a way to resurrect people (and himself) in order to gain immortality or else they would stay as spirits with unresurrected bodies eternally.

And since eternal law dictates that it is sin of any kind that keeps us in the grave unresurrected and only by paying the price of that sin (which is always death scripturally) could a person be resurrected to immortal life.  It would be impossible to be resurrected with sin upon us.  That's scriptural fact.  Christ paid the price for our sins so that we didn't have to stay dead.  Lucifer understood eternal law well enough to know that he would have no resurrection and nobody to reign over in glory if the price of sin wasn't paid.  He had a plan.  We just don't know all the details.

Lucifer knew not the mind of God. Perhaps he thought he could cheat his way to glory. He is the master of secret combinations. He probably assumed he could hide his sins from God and usurp Gods power. But, as said before, he knew not the mind and thus the plans of God.

[CV75]

I actually think your other posts were quite insightful. No need to to repeat them.

 

I just think attributing intention-motivation to Satan is kind of like trying to attribute intention-motivation to Christ or God the Father. These beings exist as supreme ideals in and of themselves.

 

God purpose is to bring about the immortality and eternal life of man... Satans purpose is (theologically) the opposite.

 

These beings exist outside of the concept of motivators.

I understand that on one level, knowing God and Satan’s motivations don’t help us because all we really experience is their enticing and the respective effects on us, and the effects of heeding or ignoring those enticings… but knowing our own motivations is of help because that is the only way we can assess whether Alma 32:9 (and Moroni 10) is being honestly applied. That takes some introspection.

 

You mentioned that God is love, and that we interpret His motivation to be His love for us (“…he has made these things known unto us beforehand, because he loveth our souls as well as he loveth our children--Alma 24:14”; “…he chastened them because he loveth them--Helaman 3:15”), and that is also what motivates us (“We love him, because he first loved us (1 John 4:19).”).

[JLHPROF]

You can be resurrected with sin.

 

Moses was translated prior to Christs resurrection. His body was "resurrected" from it's temporal status to a terrestial status and would then later be celestialized during his "first resurrection".

 

Moses was not perfect at this point yet was resurrection. Likewise, resurrection can happen multiple times and does not require a person to be dead.

 

Though this is all semantics really.

 

You don't think Moses received the ordinance of Baptism or his Endowment?  Or alternately was free of sin from obedience to the Mosaic law of sacrifice?  Also, Moses was not "resurrected" until after Christ, the first fruits of the resurrection.

To say we can be resurrected with sin upon us is to negate the necessity of Christ.  The only reason we can be resurrected is because he paid the price for our sins else we would remain in the grave.

Redemption from the fall is required to be resurrected in an immortal state.

 

But you're right, it is semantics.

 

 

Lucifer knew not the mind of God. Perhaps he thought he could cheat his way to glory. He is the master of secret combinations. He probably assumed he could hide his sins from God and usurp Gods power. But, as said before, he knew not the mind and thus the plans of God.

 

I think you think Lucifer was a lot more ignorant of the gospel than he was.  Remember, to become perdition you have to have reach a certain height.  It takes about as much progression  to make a devil as it does an angel.   Lucifer absolutely understood eternal gospel law.  That's how he is so good at deceiving the very elect.

Edited July 15, 2014 by JLHPROF

[CV75]

I think of the "fruit" of the tree as the "thing" that gave them the knowledge of good and evil

...which is in opposition to not knowing!

[Bikeemikey]

Lucifer knew not the mind of God. Perhaps he thought he could cheat his way to glory. He is the master of secret combinations. He probably assumed he could hide his sins from God and usurp Gods power. But, as said before, he knew not the mind and thus the plans of God.

 

Well he had his priesthood and power... perhaps we was just trying to do things differently and refused to give in when confronted with the reality that his plan would not work.

[Rob Osborn]

I think you think Lucifer was a lot more ignorant of the gospel than he was.  Remember, to become perdition you have to have reach a certain height.  It takes about as much progression  to make a devil as it does an angel.   Lucifer absolutely understood eternal gospel law.  That's how he is so good at deceiving the very elect.

He is so good but yet he knew not the mind of God. Theres a principle of wickedness that happens though. When one becomes wicked they lose light and truth. Satan is no longer a holder of light and truth like he once had. Sinfulness replaces truth and allows one t become confused about the truth. This is how Satan is so good at justifying sinful behavior- he honestly believes there is nothing wrong with it. He is so far removed from the truth of godliness that he hasnt a clue now how godliness works and thus why he knows not the mind of God.

[VideoGameJunkie]

Whatever Lucifer promised was so intriguing that 1/3 of the host of heaven felt it was a good option. So everyone be happy that we chose to come to earth.

[theplains]

It takes about as much progression  to make a devil as it does an angel. 

 

Is Lucifer one type of angel that is procreated of heavenly parents and other angels are

not procreated?

 

Thanks,

Jim

[Ahab]

Or the eating of fruit is symbolic for a much more complicated and involved and taking longer act...

Don't go making it so symbolic that you lose sight of the real event, though. They did something that resulted in enabling them to know what is good and what is evil, and eating that fruit was the catalyst because our Father (who always gives nothing but good counsel) told them not to do that while Satan counseled them to (know what is evil).

[Ahab]

...which is in opposition to not knowing!

It was good that they didn't know anything which was evil, or even what evil was. The tradeoff was that they also didn't know anything which was good, including not knowing our Father was good and that he had given good counsel to not obtain knowledge of what evil is.

If only there had been a way to know only what is good without knowing anything about the opposite of good.

[JLHPROF]

Whatever Lucifer promised was so intriguing that 1/3 of the host of heaven felt it was a good option. So everyone be happy that we chose to come to earth.

 

Just as an interesting mini-derail, someone once told me that there is a difference between "1/3" and "1/3 part".  IE - exactly 1 out of 3 or 1 of 3 groupings.

 

Not sure if that's true (and it's not doctrinal) but since the scriptures only ever say "1/3 part" , never "1/3."

[JLHPROF]

Don't go making it so symbolic that you lose sight of the real event, though. They did something that resulted in enabling them to know what is good and what is evil, and eating that fruit was the catalyst because our Father (who always gives nothing but good counsel) told them not to do that while Satan counseled them to (know what is evil).

 

Assuming there was any actual "fruit", just like the "dust", the "rib" and the "serpent".  It might have represented something else.

[Ahab]

Assuming there was any actual "fruit", just like the "dust", the "rib" and the "serpent". It might have represented something else.

Fruit is still a good word for whatever it was they partook of, just as it works for how we can know people by their fruits.

Dust works too, because we're talking about tiny particles of material elements, but the word translated to rib should more correctly refer to something that is and should be on the side of a man.

I think snakes got a bad rep from being associated with Satan, though, just as the word for a female dog now has a bad rep from being used for a woman behaving badly.

[CV75]

It was good that they didn't know anything which was evil, or even what evil was. The tradeoff was that they also didn't know anything which was good, including not knowing our Father was good and that he had given good counsel to not obtain knowledge of what evil is.

If only there had been a way to know only what is good without knowing anything about the opposite of good.

So the goodness of not knowing evil and the badness of not knowing good, and the badness of not knowing good and the goodness of not knowing evil would have been a compound in one, but only if not knowing good or evil was good, which it isn’t…

 

The opposite of creation, which was deemed "good" would have been destruction; creation was clearly evident to Adam and Eve as it was all about them, but destruction was hidden (the opposite of evidence all about) in the choice to partake of the forbidden fruit.

[Ahab]

So the goodness of not knowing evil and the badness of not knowing good, and the badness of not knowing good and the goodness of not knowing evil would have been a compound in one, but only if not knowing good or evil was good, which it isn’t…

The opposite of creation, which was deemed "good" would have been destruction; creation was clearly evident to Adam and Eve as it was all about them, but destruction was hidden (the opposite of evidence all about) in the choice to partake of the forbidden fruit.

Yep. +1 from this device if I could.

They saw all that they saw in that paradise of a garden wherever it was while not knowing if anything they saw was good or evil, not even knowing Satan was evil when they saw and heard what he told them, and also not knowing our Father was good and that what he told them was good, just as it always is.

[Ahab]

That seems possible but that condition would have been limited to the Garden and would not have applied to the pre-earth existence as people were clearly persuaded by different positions in the pre-earth council and were held accountable to those decisions.

I agree except that I wouldn't limit it to just the garden. Everyone in mortality now is here to gain knowledge of good and evil, and since this planet is only one out of the many our Father has created and peopled I'm sure the situation in the garden and in mortality has happened ib many more places than only that garden.

[Bikeemikey]

I agree except that I wouldn't limit it to just the garden. Everyone in mortality now is here to gain knowledge of good and evil, and since this planet is only one out of the many our Father has created and peopled I'm sure the situation in the garden and in mortality has happened ib many more places than only that garden.

Seems reasonable.

[Nofear]

It was Lucifer who, not knowing the mind of the Lord, put effort into enticing them to partake of the forbidden fruit. He put forth effort where none was really needed; if he was going to be here anyway, from our perspective he could just as well have waited to tempt man until after mortality was freely chosen.

 

Agreed. Satan put forth effort where none was needed. But why? Lucifer is most certainly not without cleverness. My working theory is that he sought to preempt what had been done on other worlds -- to entice our Adam and Eve before they were ready, before they had the appropriate instruction and preparation. And there were definitely things that Adam and Eve needed to learn before leaving the safety of the Garden. In other words, he sought to mess up this world by getting our primal parents shoved out the door before they were ready... kind of like tossing a preteen out of the house and telling them they are now responsible for their own survival. Fortunately our God was wise to this strategy and prepared alternative prescriptions to the typical script to get things back on track. Still, as it is, at least according to Enoch, this world isn't one of the better behaved ones to grace our Father's kingdom.

 

As an additional note to my working theory is that the cursing of the serpent to eat the dust of the earth is another way of saying Lucifer and his minions would be prevented from traveling to other worlds and trying their shenanigans there. They have been banished from he network of worlds and operate only on this one.

 

Just as an interesting mini-derail, someone once told me that there is a difference between "1/3" and "1/3 part". IE - exactly 1 out of 3 or 1 of 3 groupings.

Not sure if that's true (and it's not doctrinal) but since the scriptures only ever say "1/3 part" , never "1/3."

Glad you posted that. Was 'bout to as well.