Was Lucifer Really The Bad Guy In The War In Heaven?

[VideoGameJunkie]

Remind me to always repent and try to avoid wickedness.

[Tsuzuki]

I think Satan is "playing a role" (“doing his part”) not in a cooperative sense or by assignment, but by his own default. His knowledge of good was lost (“he knew not the mind of God”) and thus was his agency. As Perdition, he can no longer know the good or choose well, and whatever he is able to do will be acted upon by the Lord for His own purposes.

 

It seems to me that at some point in the pre-existence, Satan had knowledge of good and chose to oppose it. To me, this is more like using his own genius to manage himself than it is choosing evil. He, like all intelligences, had it given to act for himself, enticed by his own intelligence (which was less than the Father’s) and by the Father’s intelligence (which was greater than any of the children’s). Since there is no evil introduced by God, and none dwells in His presence, it can only be introduced internally within the mind of the spirit child. From there the child either spirals upward toward the light or downward into the darkness or evil. At this stage, God is not using evil to accomplish His purposes, but is simply doing what God does when He “[comes] down in the beginning in the midst of all the intelligences.”

 

I’m thinking that spirits dwelling in the presence of God, or having God in their midst, have an invitation to receive grace for grace, and continue from grace to grace. Some opt not to receive it, some do but do not continue in it, and some divest themselves of it as did Satan (“…wherefore, he became a devil, having sought that which was evil before God.”). Opposition between good and evil was not a requirement at that stage. It isn’t until a physical creation was made for our probation that the “must needs be” in the law of opposition actually comes into play for God’s “eternal purposes in the end of man” per the wording in 2 Nephi 2:15:

 

“…after he had created …all things which are created, it must needs be that there was an opposition; even the forbidden fruit in opposition to the tree of life; the one being sweet and the other bitter.” It doesn’t say which fruit is sweet and which is bitter, and though we may assume the fruit of the tree of life was sweet (as in good) and the fruit of the tree of knowledge was bitter (as in evil), it could have simply been that an enticement for death was made possible by a sweet fruit and the enticement to consume the bitter fruit was made by the promise of unending paradisiacal life. Evil did not become a choice until the devil was recognized by Adam and Eve (Genesis 3:5, Moses 4:19).

 

This August 2014 Ensign article makes a number of points that touch on this: https://www.lds.org/ensign/2014/08/becoming-children-of-light?lang=eng

 

“differentiate between what is light and what is dark—between things that inspire us and bring us closer to the Spirit and things that do not.” In the pre-existence, our own intelligence would inspire and bring us along in alignment with God’s through His enticement and grace (or not, through our enticement and lack of grace).

 

“darkness is more than the mere absence of light.” It is a force that conflicts with the powers of good, which came about when Satan first rebelled and has since been incorporated into the law of opposition in this estate after the creation.

If Satan/Lucifer lacks agency, then how is he responsible for anything he does, and how is any punishment for his actions just, especially when those actions are essential to the plan of God? Lucifer being the Holy Ghost makes way more sense than this, and it actually gives him a realistic motive. Prior to the Babylonian exile, the Israelites viewed Satan as the Accuser, but he wasn't considered evil. To them, he really was just doing his job, and Accuser could just be the other side of the same coin as Comforter for those who fail the test. The idea of an evil god came from Zoroastrianism.

[CV75]

If Satan/Lucifer lacks agency, then how is he responsible for anything he does, and how is any punishment for his actions just, especially when those actions are essential to the plan of God? Lucifer being the Holy Ghost makes way more sense than this, and it actually gives him a realistic motive. Prior to the Babylonian exile, the Israelites viewed Satan as the Accuser, but he wasn't considered evil. To them, he really was just doing his job, and Accuser could just be the other side of the same coin as Comforter for those who fail the test. The idea of an evil god came from Zoroastrianism.

Satan had agency at one time, until he rebelled (D&C 29:36). His punishment and condemnation are that he cannot progress, because he cannot repent, because he no longer has any light, being the antithesis of Christ. He was accountable and lost.

 

Agency is more than the ability to act; it is also God’s approval, sanction, freedom, etc. (the opposite of condemnation)—D&C 93:31. It is acting “in doctrine and principle pertaining to futurity [or faith],” which Satan does not do (101:78).

 

Satan sought to destroy man’s agency in the pre-existence (Moses 4:3), and still does in this world (Moses 7:32).

 

The article I linked to describes how we use moral agency to “become children of light [which] means to reject the power of the adversary and to choose daily to follow the Light of Christ.” Satan simply no longer possesses this moral agency.

 

The principle of opposition in God’s presence is expressed in such relationships as faith and knowledge; mercy and justice; organized and unorganized, pre-mortal and exalted, etc. Evil is not necessary in His economy an “existential” sense, but in this particular world with this particular “generation” of God’s children, it has come forth and is being used for God’s purposes (Moses 1:35). Another generation in another world could well proceed along the path of exaltation without a Satan, though it would still need a Christ since the “true light” is what makes the plan work since all the children of God, being less than He, require grace (Abraham 3:18-19).

 

No matter how one might glorify Satan’s former status as a son of the morning, it does not account for what he is today. It seems to me that a willing misunderstanding of Jehovah as defender and Satan as accuser is part of what that led to the captivity of Israel by the gentile nations.

[VideoGameJunkie]

Whatever Satan was selling in the pre mortal life must've sounded good to the 1/3 that followed him. And I've asked this before, but it hasn't been answered, was the war in heaven a real war, or was it more of a debate of words?

[Tsuzuki]

The principle of opposition in God’s presence is expressed in such relationships as faith and knowledge; mercy and justice; organized and unorganized, pre-mortal and exalted, etc. Evil is not necessary in His economy an “existential” sense, but in this particular world with this particular “generation” of God’s children, it has come forth and is being used for God’s purposes (Moses 1:35). Another generation in another world could well proceed along the path of exaltation without a Satan, though it would still need a Christ since the “true light” is what makes the plan work since all the children of God, being less than He, require grace (Abraham 3:18-19).

2 Nephi 2:11-12 is pretty clear that opposition is an eternal principle, so a "Satan" figure would be needed in any generation of Gods, otherwise "it must needs have been created for a thing of naught" and "there would have been no purpose in the end of its creation." And when Lehi says that "all things must needs be a compound in one," I believe him.

 

"For it must needs be, that there is an opposition in all things. If not so, my firstborn in the wilderness, righteousness could not be brought to pass, neither wickedness, neither holiness nor misery, neither good nor bad. Wherefore, all things must needs be a compound in one; wherefore, if it should be one body it must needs remain as dead, having no life neither death, nor corruption nor incorruption, happiness nor misery, neither sense nor insensibility.

Wherefore, it must needs have been created for a thing of naught; wherefore there would have been no purpose in the end of its creation. Wherefore, this thing must needs destroy the wisdom of God and his eternal purposes, and also the power, and the mercy, and the justice of God."

[Tsuzuki]

Whatever Satan was selling in the pre mortal life must've sounded good to the 1/3 that followed him. And I've asked this before, but it hasn't been answered, was the war in heaven a real war, or was it more of a debate of words?

It was the way the Holy Ghost got His job after being turned down from the one He originally applied for.

[CV75]

2 Nephi 2:11-12 is pretty clear that opposition is an eternal principle, so a "Satan" figure would be needed in any generation of Gods, otherwise "it must needs have been created for a thing of naught" and "there would have been no purpose in the end of its creation." And when Lehi says that "all things must needs be a compound in one," I believe him.

 

"For it must needs be, that there is an opposition in all things. If not so, my firstborn in the wilderness, righteousness could not be brought to pass, neither wickedness, neither holiness nor misery, neither good nor bad. Wherefore, all things must needs be a compound in one; wherefore, if it should be one body it must needs remain as dead, having no life neither death, nor corruption nor incorruption, happiness nor misery, neither sense nor insensibility.

Wherefore, it must needs have been created for a thing of naught; wherefore there would have been no purpose in the end of its creation. Wherefore, this thing must needs destroy the wisdom of God and his eternal purposes, and also the power, and the mercy, and the justice of God."

I don’t think so – 2 Nephi 11-13 build upon verses 8-10  which have to do with the laws governing “the inhabitants of the earth” and the creation of things in the fallen world in which we live (verse 4).

 

Verse 13 portrays the principle of opposition in its form and expression of being introduced subsequent to the creation. This verse, stated in reverse, says that all things exist, to act or to be acted upon, because of the conditions of the second estate (the physical earth and its physical inhabitants), which is by virtue of the existence of God who planned and made it happen. The punishment and misery of the fallen world followed its creation, which creation was patterned after His world of righteousness and happiness, which He established and enjoys in accordance with eternal law and not sin. The point being, if we say we do not sin then the rest is a lie as well and we are in effect accusing God and the prophets of lying.

 

As I explained above, the law of opposition is manifest very differently in the first estate and in God’s post-second estate presence.

 

None of the members of the Godhead simultaneously perform acts of darkness and light for the benefit of man (see think to the August Ensign article), including the Holy Ghost. They test us by enticing and inviting us to do good, and not by tempting us to do evil but by providing and lighting the way to escape.

Edited August 2, 2014 by CV75

[VideoGameJunkie]

So who tempts us to do bad things? Who tempted my friend to offer me a cigarette when I was younger? (Which I obviously declined)

[Tsuzuki]

I don’t think so – 2 Nephi 11-13 build upon verses 8-10  which have to do with the laws governing “the inhabitants of the earth” and the creation of things in the fallen world in which we live (verse 4).

 

Verse 13 portrays the principle of opposition in its form and expression of being introduced subsequent to the creation. This verse, stated in reverse, says that all things exist, to act or to be acted upon, because of the conditions of the second estate (the physical earth and its physical inhabitants), which is by virtue of the existence of God who planned and made it happen. The punishment and misery of the fallen world followed its creation, which creation was patterned after His world of righteousness and happiness, which He established and enjoys in accordance with eternal law and not sin. The point being, if we say we do not sin then the rest is a lie as well and we are in effect accusing God and the prophets of lying.

 

As I explained above, the law of opposition is manifest very differently in the first estate and in God’s post-second estate presence.

If it's the case that the second estate is necessary to act and be acted upon, then how could anyone in the pre-mortal world, let alone Lucifer, have done anything? This would also include the Holy Ghost now, regardless of who He is, since He hasn't had a body. I take the verses in 2 Nephi to mean that anything that can act is a compound in one, and that's how I've always seen it taught.

 

None of the members of the Godhead simultaneously perform acts of darkness and light for the benefit of man (see think to the August Ensign article), including the Holy Ghost. They test us by enticing and inviting us to do good, and not by tempting us to do evil but by providing and lighting the way to escape.

That could be a matter of perspective. If you're on the receiving end of God-commanded genocide, it might look to you like an act of darkness.

[Tsuzuki]

So who tempts us to do bad things? Who tempted my friend to offer me a cigarette when I was younger? (Which I obviously declined)

It could have been a misguided sense of generosity on his part, or an attempt to validate his own behavior. You don't need demons involved all the time.

[mfbukowski]

Remind me to always repent and try to avoid wickedness.

OK.

I just wanted to remind you to always repent and try to avoid wickedness.

 

 

[mfbukowski]

So who tempts us to do bad things? Who tempted my friend to offer me a cigarette when I was younger? (Which I obviously declined)

Hey, my mother who was a non-member gave my 5 year old son some beer to drink so that he would always hate the taste.

 

What can I say?

[mfbukowski]

You don't need demons involved all the time.

You're just no fun at all. 

[Calm]

Hey, my mother who was a non-member gave my 5 year old son some beer to drink so that he would always hate the taste.

 

What can I say?

My father in law brought home beer for his oldest daughter to wash her hair in when it was a fad (I can't believe it lasted too long with how it smells) and my husband remembers having a taste of it by permission.  He was probably around 4 or 5 himself.

 

Reminds me of when my dad allowed my brother when he was about 6 to play a slot machine when they were driving through Vegas to demonstrate that it was a waste of money.  He gave him a dollar he said he could keep or lose in the machine.

 

My brother walked away with about $20 IIRC in his pocket.  

[Stone holm]

I was obviously being too clever by half, so let me clarify: My REAL question is NOT whether Lucifer was right and whether I should go out to worship him instead. And if I did have that question, I wouldn't come HERE for the answer any more than I would go to muslimdialogue.org for BLT recipes.

My real question is "When do we reach the stage of open rebellion of HF? When we let our own selfish desires cause us to think we have a 'better way' to accomplish His plans? Or does it require an open act of defiance for us to cross the line?"

Sorry for being so obtuse in the OP.

I think it takes more than either of those, it takes defiance and an attempt to harm others for our own personal gain or glory. Satan's plan would have produced zombies.

[mfbukowski]

My father in law brought home beer for his oldest daughter to wash her hair in when it was a fad (I can't believe it lasted too long with how it smells) and my husband remembers having a taste of it by permission.  He was probably around 4 or 5 himself.

 

Reminds me of when my dad allowed my brother when he was about 6 to play a slot machine when they were driving through Vegas to demonstrate that it was a waste of money.  He gave him a dollar he said he could keep or lose in the machine.

 

My brother walked away with about $20 IIRC in his pocket.  

Great story! 

[CV75]

If it's the case that the second estate is necessary to act and be acted upon, then how could anyone in the pre-mortal world, let alone Lucifer, have done anything? This would also include the Holy Ghost now, regardless of who He is, since He hasn't had a body. I take the verses in 2 Nephi to mean that anything that can act is a compound in one, and that's how I've always seen it taught.

In the first estate, we act upon ourselves and the principles of light. By virtue of His presence and relatively superior brightness, God invites and entices us to act upon them out of our relative “darkness.” This is how we become children of light (sons of the morning). The things to be acted upon are then availed to us at the commencement of creation, which is the transition into the second estate.

 

Our souls are spirit (that which acts) and element (that which is acted upon). That is the compound in one as far as our personalities are concerned. That doesn’t arise until the second estate. In the first estate, as co-eternal beings with God, we are a compound in one in that we are less than He (so we cannot act in certain areas) and yet act (we can act in other areas) upon the light He provides. This tension permits faith and knowledge to work together in the first estate, and how they continue to work together in the second estate where the law of opposition is “added upon.”

 

The law of opposition works or is applied or expanded differently in different estates, as most laws are.

 

That could be a matter of perspective. If you're on the receiving end of God-commanded genocide, it might look to you like an act of darkness.

All existence is a product of agency (D&C 93:30) and thus matter of perception, or receiving the light (93:28). God is darkness only to the perceptions of the wicked simply because they receive not the light (93:31-32).

[CV75]

Hey, my mother who was a non-member gave my 5 year old son some beer to drink so that he would always hate the taste.

 

What can I say?

To me, this kind of thing is an outgrowth of Isaiah 60:2 and the tradition of their fathers. While not a full-bore, intentional temptation and corruption of the innocent, I’m sure Satan is pleased when this kind of thing happens, and he contributes to the lack of light in the environment as much as our own fallen natures. But fortunately the second half of Isaiah 60:2 comes into play as well.

[LOSTONE]

Right off the bat, Lucifer asked for himself to be the redeemer, Christ did not. Thus, Lucifer showed greed and ego ( both sins ) in wanting to be something only HF has the right to determined. Lucifer was also seeking for his only glory as Christ was not. Someone had to get the glory. That is true, but who was asking for it and who wasn’t? Where was the trust in HF to come up with the correct plan?

“I presume that HF meant to get their COUNSEL.” That is an assumption, not fact so that thought of yours really has no actual merit or influence in a discussion like this. Without knowing actual facts, a true conclusion can not be determined. Instead, only more unanswerable questions.

I think your subject is very good, however, there is simply too much of a lack of factual information to draw a correct, factual conclusion. Without knowing more facts, we really are only left with more unanswerable questions.

My question is this. Does this subject really matter much? Are we not saved and have wisdom bestrode upon us on how to live and help others be saved? Shall we not invest more into that than a subject we simply do not have enough wisdom or insight to?

Trust God for he has already shown us his way works.

[mfbukowski]

We should never question our leaders or beliefs.

 

I have some kool aid here that is delicious to the taste.

[LOSTONE]

mfbukowski.... ((( WHAT?! )))

[Stone holm]

We should never question our leaders or beliefs.

 

I have some kool aid here that is delicious to the taste.

So you feel eating the fruit was evil?

[mfbukowski]

mfbukowski.... ((( WHAT?! )))

 

So you feel eating the fruit was evil?

I guess I generated some confusion.

 

I was being sarcastic.

 

I believe it is important to ask questions and not take what our leaders tell us is correct at face value without thinking about it and coming to our own conclusions and then seeking the spirit to confirm our positions.  I do not believe in blind obedience- I am reminded of Jim Jones who's followers drank poisoned kool aid to commit suicide because he said to do so.

 

I do not feel that eating the fruit was evil- I believe that Adam and Eve knew exactly what they were doing and that the fall was a necessary step in the progression of mankind to get closer to becoming like God.

 

The church tells us that Satan was duped into tempting Eve and actually fulfilled the plan of salvation by doing so.

 

I DO trust God, I just don't trust someone saying he is a prophet of God unless God tells me that he is telling the truth.

Edited August 3, 2014 by mfbukowski

[Tsuzuki]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUSPq37NMHw

[teddyaware]

It was the way the Holy Ghost got His job after being turned down from the one He originally applied for.

According to the Book of Mormon, reality can only exist upon the everlasting principal of polar opposition in all things. This unchanging principle is what enables intelligences to make logical sense of the reality in which they exist, by providing constant reference points where clear and unambiguous distinctions can be made between one thing and another, between one principal or the other. The truth is that within reality there exists a genuine polar opposite for each and every thing that exists. And since the opposition that exists is actual opposition, there is no place within the framework of reality for some sort of illusory opposition (which you seem to be advocate) that dilutes and adulterates the very real dynamic tension that exists between any given thing and its polar opposite. In 2 Nephi 2, the Prophet Lehi makes all of this perfectly clear:

10 And because of the intercession for all, all men come unto God; wherefore, they stand in the presence of him, to be judged of him according to the truth and holiness which is in him. Wherefore, the ends of the law which the Holy One hath given, unto the inflicting of the punishment which is affixed, which punishment that is affixed is in opposition to that of the happiness which is affixed , to answer the ends of the atonement—

11 For it must needs be, that there is an opposition in all things. If not so, my firstborn in the wilderness, righteousness could not be brought to pass, neither wickedness, neither holiness nor misery, neither good nor bad. Wherefore, all things must needs be a compound in one; wherefore, if it should be one body it must needs remain as dead, having no life neither death, nor corruption nor incorruption, happiness nor misery, neither sense nor insensibility. (2 Nephi 2)

The Prophet Jacob, in no uncertain terms, makes it perfectly clear that there is no benign and holy presence hiding behind the face of the devil...

 

8 O the wisdom of God, his mercy and grace! For behold, if the flesh should rise no more our spirits must become subject to that angel who fell from before the presence of the Eternal God, and became the devil, to rise no more.

9 And our spirits must have become like unto him, and we become devils, angels to a devil, to be shut out from the presence of our God, and to remain with the father of lies, in misery, like unto himself; yea, to that being who beguiled our first parents, who transformeth himself nigh unto an angel of light, and stirreth up the children of men unto secret combinations of murder and all manner of secret works of darkness.

10 O how great the goodness of our God, who prepareth a way for our escape from the grasp of this awful monster; yea, that monster, death and hell, which I call the death of the body, and also the death of the spirit. (2 Nephi 9)

In light of your approach, it's most interesting to note that in the Book of Revelation the Lord alludes to certain Christian apostates during the Apostolic Period who also thought they understood the hidden mystery behind the devil's "benign secret identity..."

20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.

21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.

22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.

23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

24 But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden. (Rev 2)

Edited August 4, 2014 by teddyaware