Was Lucifer Really The Bad Guy In The War In Heaven?

[JLHPROF]

Lucifer was a liar from the beginning. He had no alternate plan because he had no power to do what he claimed he would do.

Thus he was a liar. 1/3 of the Host believed him because they feared they would fail by coming to earth.

That is what the bitterness of hell is: fear.

Moses 1:20.

 

I still don't buy that.  Lucifer wanted the glory and power that Heavenly Father has.  He had enough understanding of the gospel to know how that would have to be gained.  He had some sort of plan to gain us and himself resurrection.

[Brian 2.0]

No one joins a rebellion unless they think they can gain control. Did Satan and the 1/3 think they could dethrone God and do things their way?

[Tiki]

I still don't buy that.  Lucifer wanted the glory and power that Heavenly Father has.  He had enough understanding of the gospel to know how that would have to be gained.  He had some sort of plan to gain us and himself resurrection.

Absolutely ridiculous!

Of course he knew the Plan of the Father. And he rebelled with the full knowledge of that plan. That's why he is called Perdition or Lost. And a son of perdition is one who rebels with the full knowledge of God. To paraphrase the Prophet Joseph Smith, a son of perdition is one who would deny the existence of the Sun when it's shining down on him at noon day. This is what Lucifer did. Because of pride, rebellion, etc and he continues to want to kill you spiritually if he cant get a fellow human being to kill you physical. This is why he rages in the hearts if men, and stirs up contentions, leading eventually to murders and wars.

He was a murderer and a liar from the beginning. See 93:25 and John 8:44. He murdered the 1/3 of the host who believed in his lies.

Lucifer had no power whatsoever to save or Exalt the Children of God. Jesus Christ the Firstborn of the Father was foreordained and that power was given to Him. Study the Pearl of Great Price. There was no other plan of salvation than that presented by the Father for no one of children could take power from our Father - it was impossible and still impossible.

His name is no longer Lucifer which is a reference to Light. His name is Perdition because he rejected the Light. And don't ever believe in his lies or feel sorry for him for there is no truth in him and he is out to destroy you!

[Bikeemikey]

No one joins a rebellion unless they think they can gain control. Did Satan and the 1/3 think they could dethrone God and do things their way?

Maybe rebellion is not a very good word to describe what happened.

[JLHPROF]

Absolutely ridiculous!

Of course he knew the Plan of the Father. And he rebelled with the full knowledge of that plan. That's why he is called Perdition or Lost. And a son of perdition is one who rebels with the full knowledge of God. To paraphrase the Prophet Joseph Smith, a son of perdition is one who would deny the existence of the Sun when it's shining down on him at noon day. This is what Lucifer did. Because of pride, rebellion, etc and he continues to want to kill you spiritually if he cant get a fellow human being to kill you physical. This is why he rages in the hearts if men, and stirs up contentions, leading eventually to murders and wars.

He was a murderer and a liar from the beginning. See 93:25 and John 8:44. He murdered the 1/3 of the host who believed in his lies.

Lucifer had no power whatsoever to save or Exalt the Children of God. Jesus Christ the Firstborn of the Father was foreordained and that power was given to Him. Study the Pearl of Great Price. There was no other plan of salvation than that presented by the Father for no one of children could take power from our Father - it was impossible and still impossible.

His name is no longer Lucifer which is a reference to Light. His name is Perdition because he rejected the Light. And don't ever believe in his lies or feel sorry for him for there is no truth in him and he is out to destroy you!

 

Wow.  Good rant.  Too bad we've been over this already in this thread and I don't feel like repeating myself.  But this is still not in keeping with any of of the scriptures that describe the Council.

[Brian 2.0]

Maybe rebellion is not a very good word to describe what happened.

What did the 1/3 do to deserve the outcome?

If they simply liked/supported/voted for Lucifer's plan that doesn't seen enough. Once HF said "I will send the first" then I would think some of the Lucifer supporters would accept the outcome (perhaps those were the other 1/3 "part").

But being cast out they would have had to not accept that decision by HF and then do what... stage a coup? Keep badgering? Say "fine then we won't go to earth"?

[JLHPROF]

What did the 1/3 do to deserve the outcome?

If they simply liked/supported/voted for Lucifer's plan that doesn't seen enough. Once HF said "I will send the first" then I would think some of the Lucifer supporters would accept the outcome (perhaps those were the other 1/3 "part").

But being cast out they would have had to not accept that decision by HF and then do what... stage a coup? Keep badgering? Say "fine then we won't go to earth"?

 

Well, considering the eventual punishment is oblivion (perdition, the second death, return to native elements) it had to be more serious than choosing something other than God's plan.  It had to be 1. unrepentable/unforgivable 2. permanent.  It also shows how high a station we reached in premortality that those spirits could fall so far.

[Brian 2.0]

Well, considering the eventual punishment is oblivion (perdition, the second death, return to native elements) it had to be more serious than choosing something other than God's plan. It had to be 1. unrepentable/unforgivable 2. permanent. It also shows how high a station we reached in premortality that those spirits could fall so far.

I love the oblivion speculation doctrine... but it's FAR FAR AWAY from official.

[JLHPROF]

I love the oblivion speculation doctrine... but it's FAR FAR AWAY from official.

 

Ok, the Church doesn't take official position, but even in the official it hints at it

 

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/gs/death-spiritual

 

 

Spiritual death also occurs following the death of the mortal body. Both resurrected beings and the devil and his angels will be judged. Those who have willfully rebelled against the light and truth of the gospel will suffer spiritual death. This death is often called the second death (Alma 12:16; Hel. 14:16–19; D&C 76:36–38).

 

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/gs/sons-of-perdition?lang=eng

 

 

The followers of Satan who will suffer with him in eternity. Sons of perdition include (1) those who followed Satan and were cast out of heaven for rebellion during premortality, and (2) those who were permitted to be born to this world with physical bodies but then served Satan and turned utterly against God. Those in this second group will be resurrected from the dead but will not be redeemed from the second (spiritual) death and cannot dwell in a kingdom of glory (D&C 88:32, 35).

 

But as D&C 76:44-46 tells us, we can never really know for sure.

 

But I personally think Brigham was probably right:

 

The clay that marred in the potter's hands was thrown back into the unprepared portion, to be prepared over again. So it will be with every wicked man and woman, and every wicked nation, kingdom, and government upon earth, sooner or later; they will be thrown back to the native element from which they originated, to be worked over again, and be prepared to enjoy some sort of a kingdom.  JD 2:124

[thatjimguy]

Where did Lucifer say that his followers could do as they please? It seems pretty clear that the plan was to tie everyone tightly to the iron rod and pull them to salvation.

As Calmoriah points out, this life of strict obedience to Lucifer would not result in ultimate exaltation. But, that being said, I don't think Lucifer was offering Spring Break 4,000 BC to his followers.

 

Yeah I got this too. Remember that this is the council of heaven, a part of which Lucifer resided. Actually, I think he believed that he was doing the right thing? I can see a parallel between that and losing our right for security here on earth.

 

Not a popular statement, but is it possible Lucifer, although wrong, was acting out of love? 

[Storm Rider]

Yeah I got this too. Remember that this is the council of heaven, a part of which Lucifer resided. Actually, I think he believed that he was doing the right thing? I can see a parallel between that and losing our right for security here on earth.

 

Not a popular statement, but is it possible Lucifer, although wrong, was acting out of love? 

 

Absolutely not; he was acting out of self-gratification and glory hounding.  He was completely focused on implementing his will over all others and getting all the glory.  He is the epitome of evil and has been ever since.  He totally rejected the Light in favor of darkness.

[Rob Osborn]

Yeah I got this too. Remember that this is the council of heaven, a part of which Lucifer resided. Actually, I think he believed that he was doing the right thing? I can see a parallel between that and losing our right for security here on earth.

 

Not a popular statement, but is it possible Lucifer, although wrong, was acting out of love?

Not a chance. Lucifer was laying tje groundwork for his evil desires, his secret combinations being planted to grow into thorned hedges. His desire at the council was to destroy the kingdom, usurp Gods power and glory and then reign as a dark lord in eternity forever.

[Calm]

Yeah I got this too. Remember that this is the council of heaven, a part of which Lucifer resided. Actually, I think he believed that he was doing the right thing? I can see a parallel between that and losing our right for security here on earth.

 

Not a popular statement, but is it possible Lucifer, although wrong, was acting out of love?

He would not demanded God's honour if he was doing it out of love.

[teddyaware]

Yeah I got this too. Remember that this is the council of heaven, a part of which Lucifer resided. Actually, I think he believed that he was doing the right thing? I can see a parallel between that and losing our right for security here on earth.

 

Not a popular statement, but is it possible Lucifer, although wrong, was acting out of love?

If Lucifer was acting out of some notion of so-called "love," then it is the same perverse form of false love found in today's world; a false notion of love that seeks to coddle the wicked without punishment for wrongdoing; desires to reward all equally without regard to moral conduct or personal initiative, disseminates the false notion that wrong choices and bad behavior are never really one's own fault.

In Heavenly Father's plan of salvation there are is very strong component of personal accountability and liability for punishment as a consequence for one's moral behavior; but in the adversary's counterfeit plan of 'salvation' no one would ever be condemned for wrongdoing, thereby destroying free agency. Free agency can only exist when one is personally accountable for the choices he makes. If personal accountability and just punishments for wrongdoing are taken out of the equation, then neither justice nor mercy can exist and, consequentially, free choice ceases to exist.

Mercy can only exist as an eternal counterpart to justice, it cannot exist on its own apart from justice. And this is where Lucifer and his followers went wrong: they thought they could create a world built on a foundation of pure mercy without regard to justice. A plan like that simply cannot work because existence itself is founded on the immutable principle of polar opposition in all things. Mercy simply cannot rob justice -- if so, all things would just vanish away.

13 And if ye shall say there is no law, ye shall also say there is no sin. If ye shall say there is no sin, ye shall also say there is no righteousness. And if there be no righteousness there be no happiness. And if there be no righteousness nor happiness there be no punishment nor misery. And if these things are not there is no God. And if there is no God we are not, neither the earth; for there could have been no creation of things, neither to act nor to be acted upon; wherefore, all things must have vanished away. (2 Nephi 2)

The adversary desired to create a world where mercy would have an imbalanced relationship with justice, something that quite simply cannot be. In trying to set men free from adversity, pain, sorrow and dire consequences for sin he would have created a system where (I'm speaking theoretically because such a system is an impossibility) it would be impossible for men to discern between good and evil, relegating mankind to a condition of being only being able to be acted upon and never able to act for themselves.

Most mistakenly believe the adversary wanted to compel men to be righteous, but this is not wholly accurate (although it would be the net effect). What he really wanted to do was create a world without negative consequences for bad behavior, and in so doing he would have condemned men to an existence of utter meaninglessness. But theoretically speaking, if his aims were possible, immediately all things would vanish into nonexistence. Therefore, under no circumstances could his plan have actually worked. But because he was too proud to admit he was wrong, his heart was hardened and he became 'perdition.' In his futile attempt to create an insipid, ineffectual, mollycoddling world, Lucifer railed against reality, and that's never a good thing to do.

Edited July 17, 2014 by teddyaware

[Nofear]

Just a thought on some of the timeline... which is admittedly a bit fuzzy in the scriptures/temple but nonetheless we potentially have:

 

1) Discussion/debate in the Council of Heaven

2) Lucifer's plan is rejected

3) Lucifer and his followers are either denied the Second Estate or they willingly reject it, but no real other punishment

4) Adam and Eve come to earth

5) Lucifer actively tries to disrupt the program

6) Lucifer is caught in the act and punished*

7) Upset, Lucifer vows spiteful vengeance

 

This chain of events presupposes two different time frames of punishment. The first is simply being denied mortal bodies -- but that apparently is largely because the rebels chose so, kind of like a self-inflicted wound. The fallen are still allowed some relative mobility to do whatever is we were doing in the pre-mortal realms. The second punishment comes in play when Lucifer, now Satan, goes beyond just proposing an alternative plan (having a different opinion, however erroneous, must not have been such a punishable offense) to action which sought to disrupt the voted-upon plan and further threatens active disruption of it.

 

The point being, I don't think Lucifer was so much sanctioned for having a different plan or proposing it, but the real meat of his downfall came into play when anger over that rejection led him to actively oppose the Council's plan.

 

 

* Again my personal interpretation is that the further punishment after getting caught messing with the intended chain of events in the Garden of Eden includes that he and his followers are denied mobility to other worlds.

[ERayR]

What did the 1/3 do to deserve the outcome?

If they simply liked/supported/voted for Lucifer's plan that doesn't seen enough. Once HF said "I will send the first" then I would think some of the Lucifer supporters would accept the outcome (perhaps those were the other 1/3 "part").

But being cast out they would have had to not accept that decision by HF and then do what... stage a coup? Keep badgering? Say "fine then we won't go to earth"?

 

They organized demonstrations, wrote missionary tracts for their point of view and persistently and publicly called their file leaders to repentance (to agree with them).

[Storm Rider]

Just a thought on some of the timeline... which is admittedly a bit fuzzy in the scriptures/temple but nonetheless we potentially have:

 

1) Discussion/debate in the Council of Heaven

2) Lucifer's plan is rejected

3) Lucifer and his followers are either denied the Second Estate or they willingly reject it, but no real other punishment

4) Adam and Eve come to earth

5) Lucifer actively tries to disrupt the program

6) Lucifer is caught in the act and punished*

7) Upset, Lucifer vows spiteful vengeance

 

This chain of events presupposes two different time frames of punishment. The first is simply being denied mortal bodies -- but that apparently is largely because the rebels chose so, kind of like a self-inflicted wound. The fallen are still allowed some relative mobility to do whatever is we were doing in the pre-mortal realms. The second punishment comes in play when Lucifer, now Satan, goes beyond just proposing an alternative plan (having a different opinion, however erroneous, must not have been such a punishable offense) to action which sought to disrupt the voted-upon plan and further threatens active disruption of it.

 

The point being, I don't think Lucifer was so much sanctioned for having a different plan or proposing it, but the real meat of his downfall came into play when anger over that rejection led him to actively oppose the Council's plan.

 

 

* Again my personal interpretation is that the further punishment after getting caught messing with the intended chain of events in the Garden of Eden includes that he and his followers are denied mobility to other worlds.

 

If they willingly rejected the opportunity to come to earth and gain a body then it makes no sense that those spirits do so much to obtain a body, any body, even going into the bodies of animals.  I think it is much safer to state that they lost their change to move forward into what would have been their second estate. 

[Nofear]

If they willingly rejected the opportunity to come to earth and gain a body then it makes no sense that those spirits do so much to obtain a body, any body, even going into the bodies of animals.  I think it is much safer to state that they lost their change to move forward into what would have been their second estate. 

 

I suspect some rejected the opportunity to come to earth based on solidarity with Lucifer and some on fear of mortality under Christ's plan. Don't know. Can't claim intimate awareness of the Adversary and his followers.

Whatever the case, they lost the opportunity for mortality. Whatever the motivation, that doesn't exclude the possibility of regret and a too-little-too-late change of mind/heart.

[thatjimguy]

Absolutely not; he was acting out of self-gratification and glory hounding.  He was completely focused on implementing his will over all others and getting all the glory.  He is the epitome of evil and has been ever since.  He totally rejected the Light in favor of darkness.

 

But the question is how does someone like that ever get exalted into heaven in the first place? It doesn't make any sense.

[Calm]

Who said he was exalted?

[changed]

That being said, I'm trying to figure out where Lucifer went wrong. HF called a COUNCIL of His children. In doing so, I presume that HF meant to get their COUNSEL. Lucifer presented an alternative plan that had some merit (freedom vs. security is an argument we often have in modern society)....

A council can not vote to change something that is true.  Right and wrong, good and evil, exist independently of God.  God does not define what is right, He does what is right.  See Alma 42 for an example of where God would cease to be God.  

Voting in a council that good is evil will not change good to evil.

Voting in a council not to do any work will not change the fact that work needed to be done, matter needed to be organized, spirits needed to be refined.

It is not up to any council to define what a perfect being is, what love is, what honor is, that sacrifice is needed.  These are universal entities unchangeable by even God Himself.  

Justice demands we legitimately earn honor, self-worth, character, etc.  There is no love without sacrifice, there is no self-worth without actions that justly earn that worth, there is no victory without a fight, there is no refinement without free will.  

The council was a matter of "who" was going to perform what deeds, not "if" the deeds needed to be performed.  What needed to be done in order to refine us is set in stone, and cannot be changed by us, God, or anyone else.  

It is not a matter of choosing which route to take to get up the mountain - I believe it when the scriptures say "there is only one way", if there were an easier less painful way to progress, God would have taken it.  

Satan's plan - let's give up trying to be perfected, let's give up love (an entity that does not exist without free will), let's give up on trying to better ourselves because it is too painful to be refined.  Let's just sit around and be happy with ourselves just the way we are....   It is a lie that we would become anything other than non-living, non-progressing, imperfect robots under Satan's plan.  

God's plan - you will never be happy until you are refined, let's take a short painful moment and refine ourselves, so that we can enjoy true love and happiness and become perfect.

Edited July 18, 2014 by changed

[thatjimguy]

Who said he was exalted?

I would think anyone at that level that is making up plans for a whole mass of spirits not exactly dwelling in the terrestrial kingdom.

How could even be there? No unclean thing comes before God right?

[Calm]

There is no indication that we were divided into kingdoms in the preexistence. We all lived with the Father.

Exaltation as we understand it is something that happens to us after ressurection.

I agree there is a problem with no unclean thing, but I believe that is because we cannot tolerate being in his presence, not the other way around. Therefore it makes sense to me the sin and impurity of mortality where we have left the presence of God and entered a fallen world has changed us in a way that did not affect us in the preexistence...and our knowledge of good and evil. And when we reenter the Father's presence, our knowledge of the consequences of our sins---something we likely did not possess in such depth before---will make it intolerable unless we purge them from our souls.

An analogy would be the difference between a young child who has hurt someone intentionally and an adult. An adult would understand the vile nature of the act while a child would not so each would react different in front of someone they understood knew the truth of their actions.

Edited July 19, 2014 by calmoriah

[Bikeemikey]

If they willingly rejected the opportunity to come to earth and gain a body then it makes no sense that those spirits do so much to obtain a body, any body, even going into the bodies of animals.  I think it is much safer to state that they lost their change to move forward into what would have been their second estate. 

 

In LDS theology Satan says he will take the spirits that follow him and have them possess the bodies god has given to his sons and daughters. The will possess the bodies of humans too.

Edited July 19, 2014 by Bikeemikey

[Storm Rider]

In LDS theology Satan says he will take the spirits that follow him and have them possess the bodies god has given to his sons and daughters. The will possess the bodies of humans too.

 

The scriptures in total context is that these spirits will take any physical body.  I think this is perplexing for the majority of Christianity because they tend to see a physical body as fallen and evil.  We see gaining a physical body as one step in God's plan to make us like him.  

 

If they can possess a human body they obviously will do it; but they will even take a pigs body if that is all they can get.