Was Lucifer Really The Bad Guy In The War In Heaven?

[Nofear]

I agree except that I wouldn't limit it to just the garden. Everyone in mortality now is here to gain knowledge of good and evil, and since this planet is only one out of the many our Father has created and peopled I'm sure the situation in the garden and in mortality has happened ib many more places than only that garden.

 

Personally I think our getting "knowledge of good and evil" is tantamount to saying we obtained a functional sensory perception to the light of Christ. Such perception in our bodies is by no means a necessary a priori. Nevertheless, knowledge of good and evil is needed for agency.

 

Behold, here is the agency of man, and here is the condemnation of man; because that which was from the beginning is plainly manifest unto them, and they receive not the light. D&C 93:30

[Bikeemikey]

Agreed. Satan put forth effort where none was needed. But why? Lucifer is most certainly not without cleverness. My working theory is that he sought to preempt what had been done on other worlds -- to entice our Adam and Eve before they were ready, before they had the appropriate instruction and preparation. And there were definitely things that Adam and Eve needed to learn before leaving the safety of the Garden. In other words, he sought to mess up this world by getting our primal parents shoved out the door before they were ready... kind of like tossing a preteen out of the house and telling them they are now responsible for their own survival. Fortunately our God was wise to this strategy and prepared alternative prescriptions to the typical script to get things back on track. Still, as it is, at least according to Enoch, this world isn't one of the better behaved ones to grace our Father's kingdom.

As an additional note to my working theory is that the cursing of the serpent to eat the dust of the earth is another way of saying Lucifer and his minions would be prevented from traveling to other worlds and trying their shenanigans there. They have been banished from he network of worlds and operate only on this one.

Glad you posted that. Was 'bout to as well.

So some how our process of engaging the plan of salvation was distinct from other plans?

[Brian 2.0]

Just as an interesting mini-derail, someone once told me that there is a difference between "1/3" and "1/3 part". IE - exactly 1 out of 3 or 1 of 3 groupings.

Not sure if that's true (and it's not doctrinal) but since the scriptures only ever say "1/3 part" , never "1/3."

I heard this as well...

It creates the question as to who was in that other 1/3 part? The old answer used to be "fence sitters".

Edited July 16, 2014 by Brian 2.0

[Brian 2.0]

Whatever Lucifer promised was so intriguing that 1/3 of the host of heaven felt it was a good option. So everyone be happy that we chose to come to earth.

Did Lucifer have to convince his followers that God was lying? Or that he didn't understand how the plan could work?

Obviously God would say "you can't be exalted without agency" and any one of a number of things to counter argue Lucifer's plan. So did the 1/3 simply believe that God was the liar in the War in Heaven?

[why me]

I think that the al pacino speech in the movie The Devil's Advocate sums it up well:

 

Warning: there are a couple of curse words in his speech.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7DMDscGOUpg

 

Notice the reference to free will and who gets the acclaim. For the spirits in the preexistence, the devil's plan was pretty attractive. I am sure that lucifer was very cunning in presenting the plan to us all. Luckily, we rejected him. But I can imagine him giving Al's speech in the preexistence.

Edited July 16, 2014 by why me

[Alan]

I personally think there may have been 3 groups in the pre-existence.

One followed Jehovah, one followed Lucifer, and the other group just didn't fancy trading their heavenly home for an uncertain future. So they stayed as and where they were.

The more I think about it, the more sympathy I have for this last group.

[Nofear]

So some how our process of engaging the plan of salvation was distinct from other plans?

 

Not really. Lucifer threw in a monkey-wrench but God got things back on track again.

[CV75]

 

Agreed. Satan put forth effort where none was needed. But why? Lucifer is most certainly not without cleverness. My working theory is that he sought to preempt what had been done on other worlds -- to entice our Adam and Eve before they were ready, before they had the appropriate instruction and preparation. And there were definitely things that Adam and Eve needed to learn before leaving the safety of the Garden. In other words, he sought to mess up this world by getting our primal parents shoved out the door before they were ready... kind of like tossing a preteen out of the house and telling them they are now responsible for their own survival. Fortunately our God was wise to this strategy and prepared alternative prescriptions to the typical script to get things back on track. Still, as it is, at least according to Enoch, this world isn't one of the better behaved ones to grace our Father's kingdom.

 

As an additional note to my working theory is that the cursing of the serpent to eat the dust of the earth is another way of saying Lucifer and his minions would be prevented from traveling to other worlds and trying their shenanigans there. They have been banished from he network of worlds and operate only on this one.

Interesting—the preemption dovetails with an idea I’ve heard where he sought to usurp God’s authority by doing what had been done by others (who were authorized) in other worlds. The relative wickedness of this world (where the inhabitants would kill their Creator and Savior) and the banishment of the adversary and his followers to this planet (where they would ultimately be bound, overcome and cast away into their own place where they are doomed to suffer the wrath of God, eternal punishment and torment), also dovetails nicely with your working theory.

 

When I read D&C 76:44, I think of “worm” relating to “upon thy belly shalt thou go” and “fire” as the flaming sword keeping them from the tree of life.

[Michael Sanders]

In the premortal world when Satan proposed that he be sent to "redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost" - exactly what were they being redeemed from? Lucifer has not been cast down at this point, neither has there been a fall. There is no opposition at this point, so what exactly are those souls who are about to enter mortality through the portals of the flesh needing to be redeemed from?

Mike

[JLHPROF]

In the premortal world when Satan proposed that he be sent to "redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost" - exactly what were they being redeemed from? Lucifer has not been cast down at this point, neither has there been a fall. There is no opposition at this point, so what exactly are those souls who are about to enter mortality through the portals of the flesh needing to be redeemed from?

Mike

 

The upcoming fall that was part of the plan from the beginning.  The fall was always going to happen in order that we can received bodies and eventual resurrection.  This was no surprise.  That's why God chose a redeemer before the fall ever happened.  The fall was required and planned for.

[Rob Osborn]

In the premortal world when Satan proposed that he be sent to "redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost" - exactly what were they being redeemed from? Lucifer has not been cast down at this point, neither has there been a fall. There is no opposition at this point, so what exactly are those souls who are about to enter mortality through the portals of the flesh needing to be redeemed from?

Mike

The fall was going to happen no matter what based on the carnal nature of man.

[JLHPROF]

The fall was going to happen no matter what based on the carnal nature of man.

 

I think that's backwards...there was no carnal nature of man before the fall.  Or did I misunderstand what fallen refers to?

Pretty sure that their bodies weren't carnal till after they fell.  They were perfect and immortal.

Edited July 16, 2014 by JLHPROF

[Rob Osborn]

I think that's backwards...there was no carnal nature of man before the fall.  Or did I misunderstand what fallen refers to?

Pretty sure that their bodies weren't carnal till after they fell.  They were perfect and immortal.

What I was meaning is that when Adam and Eve and all of us are given our bodies we will, by nature, choose to follow after the natural lusts and cravings of the flesh. Its like placing a candy dish in a room full of little children and then telling them they cannot eat it. Once you leave the room it's inevitable that the children are going to try the candy and disregard your command not to. All of us are the same way entering into this life. By nature we will fall- its our carnal natures of the fleshy body that are natural desires which we must learn to bridal so that we can overcome them and not sin. Knowing this beforehand, God already had the plan in place to provide a means to save us from our naturally fallen conditions upon the conditions of repentance. Through the atonement salvation is thus possible.

[Ahab]

In the premortal world when Satan proposed that he be sent to "redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost" - exactly what were they being redeemed from? Lucifer has not been cast down at this point, neither has there been a fall. There is no opposition at this point, so what exactly are those souls who are about to enter mortality through the portals of the flesh needing to be redeemed from?

Mike

From their disobedience or failure to do what our Father wanted us to do when we came here.

It was pretty much conceded as a fact that each and every person who came to this planet would at one time or another fail to do what our Father wants or wanted us to do. The one our Father appointed as the Christ had to be an exception, though, because if he messed up the whole plan would be doomed.

Some people think the fall was necessary, but it never was. We didn't and don't have to act contrary to what our Father wants us to do. We just rebel, sometimes, so we need someone who can redeen us from when we simply choose to not do our Father's will.

[Bikeemikey]

I think that's backwards...there was no carnal nature of man before the fall.  Or did I misunderstand what fallen refers to?

Pretty sure that their bodies weren't carnal till after they fell.  They were perfect and immortal.

 

Their bodies may have been but their spirits weren't. Their spirits were still imperfect.

[JDave]

 

In the premortal world when Satan proposed that he be sent to "redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost" - exactly what were they being redeemed from? Lucifer has not been cast down at this point, neither has there been a fall. There is no opposition at this point, so what exactly are those souls who are about to enter mortality through the portals of the flesh needing to be redeemed from?

Where does it say there was no opposition? Is a Fall really necessary in order to make incorrect choices?

Alma 13:3 states that there was a "preparatory redemption" to allow pre-mortal callings to be made. As you asked, what are those souls needing to be redeemed from? The Atonement is eternal and infinite, covering our mistakes and weaknesses throughout our existence -- including before this mortal life and after this mortal life. 

[Michael Sanders]

Where does it say there was no opposition? Is a Fall really necessary in order to make incorrect choices?Alma 13:3 states that there was a "preparatory redemption" to allow pre-mortal callings to be made. As you asked, what are those souls needing to be redeemed from? The Atonement is eternal and infinite, covering our mistakes and weaknesses throughout our existence -- including before this mortal life and after this mortal life.

I derive that from Lehi's exhortation to his sons. See 2 Nephi 2:11-27. If Adam hadn't transgressed he would not have fallen, and all things would have remained in the same state as originally created. Hence, in the premortal setting before Satan rebelled there was no opposition. Once he "sought that which was evil before God" and opposition arose to entice men - which sets in motion the ability to act and be acted upon. To choose.

I fully recognize that the fall was foreordained - "in the wisdom of him who knoweth all things", that much is clear from the heavenly council where they are proposing who and what manner of redemption should be contemplated. It's just ironic that after the council that Satan becomes the actual agent of the opposition to bring this all to pass.

[Michael Sanders]

It's in Jacob's speech that we learn about "the cunning plan of the evil one" which is frustrated by God by bringing to pass the resurrection. For if there was no resurrection our spirits must have become like him, and we become devils, angels to the devil. To remain in misery, but Jacob declares "O how great the plan of our God" who prepared and escape from death and hell, body and spirit respectively. Which gets back to the need for the "infinite atonement" mentioned by other posters above. See 2 Nephi 9:4-54 (especially vs 6-10)

Mike

[why me]

What I was meaning is that when Adam and Eve and all of us are given our bodies we will, by nature, choose to follow after the natural lusts and cravings of the flesh. Its like placing a candy dish in a room full of little children and then telling them they cannot eat it. Once you leave the room it's inevitable that the children are going to try the candy and disregard your command not to. All of us are the same way entering into this life. By nature we will fall- its our carnal natures of the fleshy body that are natural desires which we must learn to bridal so that we can overcome them and not sin. Knowing this beforehand, God already had the plan in place to provide a means to save us from our naturally fallen conditions upon the conditions of repentance. Through the atonement salvation is thus possible.

Since we came to this earth to be more like our heavenly father, I take it as a given that this earth was going to be a trial period so that we can understand better our relationship with our heavenly parents. I also take it for granted that there would be opposition but what that would be is a mystery, especially since satan fell from grace and was cast out and became the opposition. Something would have happened to make this life a trial period.

[JDave]

 

I derive that from Lehi's exhortation to his sons. See 2 Nephi 2:11-27. If Adam hadn't transgressed he would not have fallen, and all things would have remained in the same state as originally created. Hence, in the premortal setting before Satan rebelled there was no opposition. Once he "sought that which was evil before God" and opposition arose to entice men - which sets in motion the ability to act and be acted upon. To choose.

I fully recognize that the fall was foreordained - "in the wisdom of him who knoweth all things", that much is clear from the heavenly council where they are proposing who and what manner of redemption should be contemplated. It's just ironic that after the council that Satan becomes the actual agent of the opposition to bring this all to pass.

In verses 17-18 it talks about how Lucifer fell, became the devil, and tempted Eve to partake of the fruit. But notice that earlier in verse 15, without any reference to a tempter or devil, there was already opposition available simply due to the choices that God provided. "Opposition in all things" is a general principle and is independent of Satan.

Also it doesn't follow that there was no opposition available before Lucifer rebelled. You state that his rebelling "sets in motion the ability to act and be acted upon. To choose". If that is true then how did Lucifer make the choice to rebel? What would be the point of Heavenly Father presenting a plan for us to sustain and follow, if we were incapable of choosing? Lucifer and the 1/3 part of the hosts of heaven rebelling (as well as references to a war in heaven) make it abundantly clear that agency was in effect for all of us at that point in time.

 So agency could not be brought into brand new existence by Lucifer's rebellion, nor by Adam and Eve partaking of the fruit of knowledge of good and evil. Agency could be protected and preserved and "given", but I don't think it is consistent to state that choices were impossible before.

[Michael Sanders]

In verses 17-18 it talks about how Lucifer fell, became the devil, and tempted Eve to partake of the fruit. But notice that earlier in verse 15, without any reference to a tempter or devil, there was already opposition available simply due to the choices that God provided. "Opposition in all things" is a general principle and is independent of Satan.Also it doesn't follow that there was no opposition available before Lucifer rebelled. You state that his rebelling "sets in motion the ability to act and be acted upon. To choose". If that is true then how did Lucifer make the choice to rebel? What would be the point of Heavenly Father presenting a plan for us to sustain and follow, if we were incapable of choosing? Lucifer and the 1/3 part of the hosts of heaven rebelling (as well as references to a war in heaven) make it abundantly clear that agency was in effect for all of us at that point in time. So agency could not be brought into brand new existence by Lucifer's rebellion, nor by Adam and Eve partaking of the fruit of knowledge of good and evil. Agency could be protected and preserved and "given", but I don't think it is consistent to state that choices were impossible before.

Understood. Perhaps the distinction should be made that when he rebelled an "opposition" was created. The ability to choose may be present in two or more beings, but as long as they agree or one submits to the will of another there is no opposition. It is pretty clear from Lehi that being enticed and transgression led to the fall and mortality. It is also clear that Satan is the agent of that opposition in tempting men.

[JDave]

 

Understood. Perhaps the distinction should be made that when he rebelled an "opposition" was created. The ability to choose may be present in two or more beings, but as long as they agree or one submits to the will of another there is no opposition. It is pretty clear from Lehi that being enticed and transgression led to the fall and mortality. It is also clear that Satan is the agent of that opposition in tempting men.

I don't read it the same way. Verse 15 shows an opposition that is completely independent of Satan. I think Lehi is stating a philosophical point that "opposition is required" -- I don't think he is saying "Satan is required". Reality and existence require (don't make sense without) opposition.

I also think Lehi provided a narrative of what happened with Adam and Eve to provide an example of opposition in all things. In verse 22 he says the it was necessary that Adam "transgressed" but he doesn't state it was necessary that they were tempted of the devil. The transgression was the necessary part, the tempting happened to get them there. Now you might ask, how would they get there otherwise? That is a good question and speculation exists, but the text never does state that Satan's temptation is necessary to mortality.

Consider some of the end results of what you are saying. If there was no opposition before Lucifer's rebellion, you are saying that is because we all agreed or submitted to the will of another -- namely Heavenly Father. This will have to be a perfect agreement and submission, or else it would be a rebellion. Even small rebellions are rebellions and presuppose there was some "opposition" or opposite course that was chosen. So if we were all perfectly following our Heavenly Father, why are there passages of scripture that suggest that some of Heavenly Father's children were more faithful? See Alma 13 and Abraham 3.

Also you would have a third part of the hosts of heaven, all of which were perfectly agreeing and submitting to Heavenly Father even though there were other choices available, who suddenly decide to follow Lucifer after he rebels. They could have always chosen to rebel on their own, but they NEVER did, always perfectly submitting to their Father. Now Lucifer, who also has perfectly and always submitted to Heavenly Father, decides instantaneously to usurp his Father's position and campaign for others to help him overthrow their Father as well.

Just another item is that the Great Plan of our Heavenly Father would be absolutely contingent of one of His children to decide at some point to completely rebel and become a active force to tempt all the other children.

[Nofear]

Where does it say there was no opposition? Is a Fall really necessary in order to make incorrect choices?

The Fall wasn't necessary for us to make incorrect choices. Case in point, Lucifer and his decision to rebel. While we may not have rebelled I am certain a lot of us adjusted our behaviors because of the presence of our Heavenly Parents. Yet, if we are to "grow up" and participate in the eternal works of our Parents, we must have internalized Celestial Law. It is not enough to simply do the right, we must be the right -- choosing good for goodness sake and not fear of some external influence. Such a change apparently 1) requires an Atonement (as corruption cannot put on incorruption) and 2) is much easier to actualize with a certain level of ignorance (i.e. here on earth with the veil in place).

[Nofear]

I don't read it the same way. Verse 15 shows an opposition that is completely independent of Satan. I think Lehi is stating a philosophical point that "opposition is required" -- I don't think he is saying "Satan is required".

Agreed here. As posted earlier in this thread I think one of the most abused scriptures in LDS canon is the concept of "opposition in all thing" -- that it's taken to mean there must be an active, intelligent opposition. Not so.

[Tiki]

Lucifer was a liar from the beginning. He had no alternate plan because he had no power to do what he claimed he would do.

Thus he was a liar. 1/3 of the Host believed him because they feared they would fail by coming to earth.

That is what the bitterness of hell is: fear.

Moses 1:20.