Was Lucifer Really The Bad Guy In The War In Heaven?

[thatjimguy]

There is no indication that we were divided into kingdoms in the preexistence. We all lived with the Father.

Exaltation as we understand it is something that happens to us after ressurection.

I agree there is a problem with no unclean thing, but I believe that is because we cannot tolerate being in his presence, not the other way around. Therefore it makes sense to me the sin and impurity of mortality where we have left the presence of God and entered a fallen world has changed us in a way that did not affect us in the preexistence...and our knowledge of good and evil. And when we reenter the Father's presence, our knowledge of the consequences of our sins---something we likely did not possess in such depth before---will make it intolerable unless we purge them from our souls.

An analogy would be the difference between a young child who has hurt someone intentionally and an adult. An adult would understand the vile nature of the act while a child would not so each would react different in front of someone they understood knew the truth of their actions.

 

I was just using the kingdom thing as an idea to show he shouldn't be there. 

 

Your analogy is possible, but even if true, it still makes me wonder why he would get in there, Unless he broke in unannounced or something.

[theplains]

The scriptures in total context is that these spirits will take any physical body.  I think this is perplexing for the majority of Christianity because they tend to see a physical body as fallen and evil.  We see gaining a physical body as one step in God's plan to make us like him.  

 

From what I know, Christians believe that Adam and Eve had physical bodies in the Garden of

Eden before the Fall but we don't view this as 'fallen' or evil when they were created with such

a body. But from what I have seen in LDS teachings, blood formed in the bodies of Adam and

Eve when they disobeyed God and this was one of the signs of them having fallen.

 

Regards,

Jim

[Tsuzuki]

If we have a testimony of Christ, we invite his spirit to be with us.

 

If we have a testimony of Lucifer, we invite.......

 

Oh never mind. 

 

Talk to Tsuzuki - he thinks the same way.  He will probably show up anyway.

I think the standard narrative of Lucifer's rebellion is flawed, and it doesn't fit with the Book of Job or 2 Peter 1:19. I think He's just doing His job, and that He's actually the Holy Ghost whose constant companionship you have.

[Shizfan]

I think the standard narrative of Lucifer's rebellion is flawed, and it doesn't fit with the Book of Job or 2 Peter 1:19. I think He's just doing His job, and that He's actually the Holy Ghost whose constant companionship you have.

So he has 2 jobs? His 2 jobs seem to conflict quite a bit. "I want to destroy you!!!....and comfort you at the same time xoxo" -Lucifer-

[Tsuzuki]

So he has 2 jobs? His 2 jobs seem to conflict quite a bit. "I want to destroy you!!!....and comfort you at the same time xoxo" -Lucifer-

More like teach you, test you (that's the part some people don't like), and then congratulate you if/when you pass. If you approach being tested adversarially, then He will appear as an Adversary.

[VideoGameJunkie]

I highly doubt Lucifer could be the Holy Ghost.

[Tsuzuki]

I highly doubt Lucifer could be the Holy Ghost.

I think it's way more likely than not, and a lot of things start making more sense if he is.

[VideoGameJunkie]

I understand that the Holy Ghost has no body, and neither does Lucifer, but the Holy Ghost is supposed to help us and comfort us. Lucifer tempts and is in Outer Darkness. I believe the Holy Ghost is with Heavenly Father.

[JLHPROF]

I think the standard narrative of Lucifer's rebellion is flawed, and it doesn't fit with the Book of Job or 2 Peter 1:19. I think He's just doing His job, and that He's actually the Holy Ghost whose constant companionship you have.

 

Well, if he is he has a seriously split personality.  The Holy Ghost is known as a witness of truth in scripture whereas Satan is known as the father of lies in scripture.

Either he tells truth or lies or he is a major schizophrenic.

[VideoGameJunkie]

The Holy Ghost is sweet, comforting, and the spirit. I am so thankful for it in my life. I feel good when thinking about the Holy Ghost. I feel anxiety when thinking about Satan.

[Tsuzuki]

Two sides of the same coin.

[JLHPROF]

Two sides of the same coin.

 

No.  Good and evil cannot be in each others presence according to scripture.  They mutually annihilate one another, like matter and anti-matter, light and dark, truth and lies.

No unclean thing can enter into God's presence and the Holy Ghost dwells with God whereas Satan was cast out of his presence.  They simply cannot be the same being based in any scripture.

However, I suppose you could say that they are opposing counterparts (sides of a coin) but they are definitely separate entities.

[VideoGameJunkie]

Well said JLH. We still don't know who the Holy Ghost is though.

[Tsuzuki]

He's just doing His job. And in the Book of Job, He's still in God's presence.

[JLHPROF]

Well said JLH. We still don't know who the Holy Ghost is though.

 

Not officially anyway. 

[Tsuzuki]

Well said JLH. We still don't know who the Holy Ghost is though.

He's Lucifer. It even says so in the Latin version of 2 Peter 1:19.

[JLHPROF]

He's Lucifer. It even says so in the Latin version of 2 Peter 1:19.

 

Oh, that's a bit of a stretch, even if the Vulgate was considered correct.

[VideoGameJunkie]

Was the war in heaven really a war, or was it more like a debate of words?

[Tsuzuki]

Oh, that's a bit of a stretch, even if the Vulgate was considered correct.

It's less of a stretch than most things about the war in heaven.

[mfbukowski]

He's just doing His job. And in the Book of Job, He's still in God's presence.

All you have to do is bring up the Garden of Eden.  In our story he was part of God's plan.  So this idea is not as weird as it may sound at first.

 

It mirrors the difference if there is one between Adam's "transgression" and "sin".  Transgression seems to be ok, but sin is not.

[CV75]

He's Lucifer. It even says so in the Latin version of 2 Peter 1:19.

 

All you have to do is bring up the Garden of Eden.  In our story he was part of God's plan.  So this idea is not as weird as it may sound at first.

 

It mirrors the difference if there is one between Adam's "transgression" and "sin".  Transgression seems to be ok, but sin is not.

Jesus is the morning star and Satan / Lucifer was a son of the morning. Big difference!

 

I think we see sons of the morning as part of God’s plan (and His contingency plan or plans) over and over again. There are many great and noble ones and many elect that are part of His original plan in one way but some fall, just a bit later than Lucifer did. And if they do, He uses them in another way; rather, they adopt an alternative purpose that will only end in His further honor and glory.

 

We see it over and over again with the enemies of ancient Israel when she became corrupt and with the Lamanites when the Nephites became corrupt; “…it is by the wicked that the wicked are punished;” “I raise up the Chaldeans…;” “They shall be a scourge unto thy seed, to stir them up in remembrance of me…” The same with the righteous inevitably being tested and tried by wicked people.

 

So Adam and Eve could be considered “wicked” in the very narrow sense indicated in D&C 62:5, as inhabitants of the earth who had not yet had the glad tiding declared unto them by one in authority; or in the very narrow sense that they walked by sight and not by faith. In either case, the aims of a wicked (and rebellious) son of the morning were leveraged to facilitate the Lord’s plan.

[mfbukowski]

Jesus is the morning star and Satan / Lucifer was a son of the morning. Big difference!

 

I think we see sons of the morning as part of God’s plan (and His contingency plan or plans) over and over again. There are many great and noble ones and many elect that are part of His original plan in one way but some fall, just a bit later than Lucifer did. And if they do, He uses them in another way; rather, they adopt an alternative purpose that will only end in His further honor and glory.

i

We see it over and over again with the enemies of ancient Israel when she became corrupt and with the Lamanites when the Nephites became corrupt; “…it is by the wicked that the wicked are punished;” “I raise up the Chaldeans…;” “They shall be a scourge unto thy seed, to stir them up in remembrance of me…” The same with the righteous inevitably being tested and tried by wicked people.

 

So Adam and Eve could be considered “wicked” in the very narrow sense indicated in D&C 62:5, as inhabitants of the earth who had not yet had the glad tiding declared unto them by one in authority; or in the very narrow sense that they walked by sight and not by faith. In either case, the aims of a wicked (and rebellious) son of the morning were leveraged to facilitate the Lord’s plan.

And of course one of the purposes of the plan of salvation is to come to earth and learn the difference between good and evil.  If we don't know the difference, we don't have the agency to choose between the two, which makes us automatons and therefore not meriting reward or punishment.

 

There must be opposition in all things- and Satan certainly does his part in making sure God is opposed!

[CV75]

And of course one of the purposes of the plan of salvation is to come to earth and learn the difference between good and evil.  If we don't know the difference, we don't have the agency to choose between the two, which makes us automatons and therefore not meriting reward or punishment.

 

There must be opposition in all things- and Satan certainly does his part in making sure God is opposed!

I think Satan is "playing a role" (“doing his part”) not in a cooperative sense or by assignment, but by his own default. His knowledge of good was lost (“he knew not the mind of God”) and thus was his agency. As Perdition, he can no longer know the good or choose well, and whatever he is able to do will be acted upon by the Lord for His own purposes.

 

It seems to me that at some point in the pre-existence, Satan had knowledge of good and chose to oppose it. To me, this is more like using his own genius to manage himself than it is choosing evil. He, like all intelligences, had it given to act for himself, enticed by his own intelligence (which was less than the Father’s) and by the Father’s intelligence (which was greater than any of the children’s). Since there is no evil introduced by God, and none dwells in His presence, it can only be introduced internally within the mind of the spirit child. From there the child either spirals upward toward the light or downward into the darkness or evil. At this stage, God is not using evil to accomplish His purposes, but is simply doing what God does when He “[comes] down in the beginning in the midst of all the intelligences.”

 

I’m thinking that spirits dwelling in the presence of God, or having God in their midst, have an invitation to receive grace for grace, and continue from grace to grace. Some opt not to receive it, some do but do not continue in it, and some divest themselves of it as did Satan (“…wherefore, he became a devil, having sought that which was evil before God.”). Opposition between good and evil was not a requirement at that stage. It isn’t until a physical creation was made for our probation that the “must needs be” in the law of opposition actually comes into play for God’s “eternal purposes in the end of man” per the wording in 2 Nephi 2:15:

 

“…after he had created …all things which are created, it must needs be that there was an opposition; even the forbidden fruit in opposition to the tree of life; the one being sweet and the other bitter.” It doesn’t say which fruit is sweet and which is bitter, and though we may assume the fruit of the tree of life was sweet (as in good) and the fruit of the tree of knowledge was bitter (as in evil), it could have simply been that an enticement for death was made possible by a sweet fruit and the enticement to consume the bitter fruit was made by the promise of unending paradisiacal life. Evil did not become a choice until the devil was recognized by Adam and Eve (Genesis 3:5, Moses 4:19).

 

This August 2014 Ensign article makes a number of points that touch on this: https://www.lds.org/ensign/2014/08/becoming-children-of-light?lang=eng

 

“differentiate between what is light and what is dark—between things that inspire us and bring us closer to the Spirit and things that do not.” In the pre-existence, our own intelligence would inspire and bring us along in alignment with God’s through His enticement and grace (or not, through our enticement and lack of grace).

 

“darkness is more than the mere absence of light.” It is a force that conflicts with the powers of good, which came about when Satan first rebelled and has since been incorporated into the law of opposition in this estate after the creation.

[VideoGameJunkie]

Who are the spirits that wind up in Outer Darkness with Satan?

[Rob Osborn]

Who are the spirits that wind up in Outer Darkness with Satan?

The unrepentant wicked.