Losing Saints, Keeping Saints

[ELF1024]

It rests on whether the priesthood leaders will work with us, then. If they ignore and pretend we aren't trying to work with them, then what? Create a website, make a fuss, politely ask for entrance to the priesthood session, I guess, and agitate until they excommunicate.

 

First and foremost, you must have faith.

 

Read your Scriptures. Pray for patience. Pray for the GAs.

 

Avoid the appearance of apostacy, by not dictating to the GAs what they must do.

Edited July 1, 2014 by ELF1024

[ksfisher]

It rests on whether the priesthood leaders will work with us, then. If they ignore and pretend we aren't trying to work with them, then what? Create a website, make a fuss, politely ask for entrance to the priesthood session, I guess, and agitate until they excommunicate.

 

If we continue asking the Lord's servants for a new revelation will we get one?  Especially when answers have already been given.  I guess one example we could follow would be that of Martin Harris in finally getting the 116 pages.

 

In the case of OW Elder Oaks was very clear in conference and the recent statement by the 1st Presidency and the Twelve was even clearer.  Should OW keep asking? 

 

If it appears as though our priesthood leaders aren't working with us perhaps we need to ask ourselves if it isn't us who aren't working with our leaders.

[stemelbow]

The keys of the Priesthood are the authority to direct the work of the Priesthood in a given area or quorum, or in the instance of the apostles and prophets- the whole church and throughout the world.  Are we responsible for following those who hold keys and stewardship over us?  Yes.  How do we know when we don't need to follow their guidance and leadership?  We don't.  We are always responsible for following them.  There are no exceptions.

Forget that. We can't always follow them. We simply can't. We aren't given enough from them to know what to do if we are to always follow them without exception. All too often we're left to figure things out for ourselves.

 

The Lord ratifies the decisions of His servants.

you mean like David's decisions?

And we are responsible to follow those leaders.  Once we have a testimony of their divine calls, we are responsible for our response to their leadership.  That is the primary role of our invitation for people to gain their own testimonies of their prophetic calls.  If we can all just pick and choose which things that come from them are true according to our own perspectives, we are left with chaos and disorder.

Not really. We can pick and choose and still not be left with chaos and disorder. You know how I know? Well, because picking and choosing has always been the case with members.

 

When we decide that they are not acting appropriately in their callings, we are no different than those who reject them categorically in the belief that they are not prophets.

We're all different though. So we are different than even those who reject them as prophets. And we still can indeed, feel they are wrong from time to time, because they have been, and still respect them as prophets. How terribly unblack and white can a Mormon be?

 

If we can just pick and choose when and how they are being true prophet versus when and how they are not, then no guidance from them is beyond our justified dismissal.  We can just say- well, I just didn't feel that was right.  And according to this philosophy, there is no bond upon us to follow them.

I was always under the impression that we can test their sayings by the Spirit.

 

There is a disconnect when we try to separate the questions of whether they are prophets and whether what they are saying is true.  What good is it to have prophets if they can lead us astray?

Plenty. Just because they can do something doesn't mean they do. Being wrong about something does not mean they are leading us astray, per se.

 

I really think this is the core issue with almost all modern instances of apostasy (besides those times when people just simply do not care what is right).

ok. So which prophet told you that?

[stemelbow]

If we continue asking the Lord's servants for a new revelation will we get one?  Especially when answers have already been given.  I guess one example we could follow would be that of Martin Harris in finally getting the 116 pages.

 

In the case of OW Elder Oaks was very clear in conference and the recent statement by the 1st Presidency and the Twelve was even clearer.  Should OW keep asking? 

 

If it appears as though our priesthood leaders aren't working with us perhaps we need to ask ourselves if it isn't us who aren't working with our leaders.

I don't know if OW should or not, but I think they intend to. They want revelation on the matter and won't stop till it comes. And if it comes in the negative for them, then they'll probably approach it different, or at least some of them.

[DJBrown]

Forget that. We can't always follow them. We simply can't. We aren't given enough from them to know what to do if we are to always follow them without exception. All too often we're left to figure things out for ourselves.

 

you mean like David's decisions?

Not really. We can pick and choose and still not be left with chaos and disorder. You know how I know? Well, because picking and choosing has always been the case with members.

 

We're all different though. So we are different than even those who reject them as prophets. And we still can indeed, feel they are wrong from time to time, because they have been, and still respect them as prophets. How terribly unblack and white can a Mormon be?

 

I was always under the impression that we can test their sayings by the Spirit.

 

Plenty. Just because they can do something doesn't mean they do. Being wrong about something does not mean they are leading us astray, per se.

 

ok. So which prophet told you that?

 

Why can't we always follow the prophets?  They are pretty clear in their teachings.  The doctrines and position of the brethren behind traditional marriage and Priesthood ordination for men only have been explain quite clearly by the brethren.  Why can we not follow their leadership on these and other issues?  I don't understand your point.

 

David's decisions.  To which decisions do you refer?  Christ told the people to follow the Pharisees words, but not their actions.  Even though they were corrupt and hypocritical, Christ told His followers to heed the words of the Pharisees because they sat in Aaron's seat.

 

Yes- picking and choosing has always existed among members.  But so have apostasy and excommunication.  There are always new converts and people leaving the church.  

 

We certainly can and are encouraged to find the spiritual confirmations for the teachings of the prophets.  But that is different than following their counsel.  Those spiritual confirmations are a gift from God to help us follow them.  But if we do not receive those confirmations, it still does not free us from the responsibility to follow the prophet.

 

If they are wrong about women and ordination or same sex marriage, is that not a form of leading us astray?  Of course.  And for those who believe in their position on these current issues, would it not be leading us astray to encourage us to raise our voices against same sex marriage and ordination of women if those were really what the Lord desired?  Of course.  

[Storm Rider]

The GAs are not infallible. We all make mistakes. To assume that they, or anyone (short of the Godhead) for that matter, cannot make a mistake is the road to dissipointment.

 

We have faith that they are doing the best they can with the information they have. In the end we are all blokes who have an opinion and a calling. We all try and temper it with prayer and inspiration.

 

Brigham Young implemented the Priesthood Policy. Joseph Smith was sealed to women who had living husbands. Elisha summoned several she bears to kill a group of kids who made fun of his bald head. Jonah ended up swallowed by a whale because of his disobedience... "DooDoo Occurs"

 

I make a distinction in the humanity of our prophets and a man who uses his calling to implement his personal views while acting as a prophet. Do you see the distinction?  I have a firm understanding of the humanity of each of us, but I am absolutely against any attempt for a man to abuse his office to implement his own views at the same time he claims to be a prophet.  You either have a revelation or not.  This is not difficult. 

[ELF1024]

I make a distinction in the humanity of our prophets and a man who uses his calling to implement his personal views while acting as a prophet. Do you see the distinction?  I have a firm understanding of the humanity of each of us, but I am absolutely against any attempt for a man to abuse his office to implement his own views at the same time he claims to be a prophet.  You either have a revelation or not.  This is not difficult. 

 

Wow, your own personal revealations must have been far clearer than the one's I've recieved. I'm sure glad you can tell the difference between your own justifications you think are answers to prayers, and what really are answers to prayers; because I sure have a lousy track record of it.

[Storm Rider]

How do these two scriptures fit into your vision of leadership in the church?

 

For behold, it is not meet that I should command in all things; for he that is compelled in all things, the same is a slothful and not a wise servant; wherefore he receiveth no reward.  D&C 58:26

 

And he cried again unto the Lord saying: O Lord, behold I have done even as thou hast commanded me; and I have prepared the vessels for my people, and behold there is no light in them. Behold, O Lord, wilt thou suffer that we shall cross this great water in darkness?  23 And the Lord said unto the brother of Jared: What will ye that I should do that ye may have light in your vessels?  Ether 2:22-23

 

 

At times when I've prayerfully asked for answers to problems the response seems to come to me "what do you think should be done?"  I think that this can work on a church level as well.  The Lord expects us to work amongst ourselves, at times, to figure out the best solutions to problems.  He teaches us correct principles and expects us to come up with some of the answers ourselves, then, like the brother of Jared, take those solutions to him, and if he approves, he will bless them.  If we waiting for him to command us in all things we would truly be unprofitable servants.

 

Does this mean that we, as a church, will make mistakes?  Yes.  But as we work towards our common goal we grow and come closer to knowing the mind and will of the Father.  The key is that we work together and that we work with our priesthood leaders.  The Lord's house is a house of order.

 

I think we are addressing two different quality of things. The scriptures you have cited address one of these things and not the other.  

 

For example, we have a problem with energy so the Brethren decide to consolidate the meetings.  This has no eternal impact on anything; it does not deny blessings from anyone; it is policy to address the energy needs at a given time. Another situation, what hymns should be in the hymn book.  You get some hymns, review them, and someone chooses.  You do the best you can and move on.

 

The caliber of decisions that I have addressed are far weightier.  You cannot enter the temple because you have blond hair; you cannot enter the temple because of the color of your skin.  These have eternal impact on the lives of all those who have blond hair or whose skin color is different.  There is no revelation to direct such decisions, but it is the choice of a individual acting as a man.  

To put it in more realistic examples, black people can no longer enter the temple or receive the priesthood.  Another would be the 89th Section of the D&C.  It specifically says, 

 

 2 To be sent greeting; not by commandment or constraint, but by revelation and the word of wisdom, showing forth the order andwill of God in the temporal salvation of all saints in the last days—

 

Not by command or constraint is what the scripture says, yet out of the blue we have a word of wisdom that becomes a commandment and is used to define who will and who will not enter the temple.  This is not a minor decision; this is major and serious impact on the lives of the saints.  Why make a change of this magnitude, which conflicts with scripture and continues to conflict with scripture, without any direction from God evidenced by scripture.  

 

 

 

Policies always get us into trouble and it is unnecessary.  We are a church that firmly stands on revelation for major decisions.  For minor issues there is not need, just move forward as best we can without any need for being compelled.  Do you see the distinction?  

[DJBrown]

 

I think we are addressing two different quality of things. The scriptures you have cited address one of these things and not the other.  

 

For example, we have a problem with energy so the Brethren decide to consolidate the meetings.  This has no eternal impact on anything; it does not deny blessings from anyone; it is policy to address the energy needs at a given time. Another situation, what hymns should be in the hymn book.  You get some hymns, review them, and someone chooses.  You do the best you can and move on.

 

The caliber of decisions that I have addressed are far weightier.  You cannot enter the temple because you have blond hair; you cannot enter the temple because of the color of your skin.  These have eternal impact on the lives of all those who have blond hair or whose skin color is different.  There is no revelation to direct such decisions, but it is the choice of a individual acting as a man.  

To put it in more realistic examples, black people can no longer enter the temple or receive the priesthood.  Another would be the 89th Section of the D&C.  It specifically says, 

 

 2 To be sent greeting; not by commandment or constraint, but by revelation and the word of wisdom, showing forth the order andwill of God in the temporal salvation of all saints in the last days—

 

Not by command or constraint is what the scripture says, yet out of the blue we have a word of wisdom that becomes a commandment and is used to define who will and who will not enter the temple.  This is not a minor decision; this is major and serious impact on the lives of the saints.  Why make a change of this magnitude, which conflicts with scripture and continues to conflict with scripture, without any direction from God evidenced by scripture.  

 

 

 

Policies always get us into trouble and it is unnecessary.  We are a church that firmly stands on revelation for major decisions.  For minor issues there is not need, just move forward as best we can without any need for being compelled.  Do you see the distinction?  

 

 

Would you consider the church's position on same-sex marriage and ordination of women policies?

[Storm Rider]

Would you consider the church's position on same-sex marriage and ordination of women policies?

 

I would not.  As I read the scriptures I see no evidence that these are acceptable positions for any Christian church.  I see them as constants within the parameters of God's direction to man from the beginning.  If these positions change the only way they can change is through revelation.  

[mfbukowski]

 

Does anyone know about "The Rescue" effort made by President Monson? I have only heard it vaguely referenced.

 

It is virtually all we talk about in High Council, including "Hastening the Work" and "The Perry Program" aka "Pick 5"

 

We receive instruction from our SP who receives instruction from the GA's.  It is a major effort and on the minds of all, constantly.  The goal is to increase the role of the Ward Council, which obviously includes sisters.  Attendance of the sisters can be a problem.

 

As I see it, the problem is that many sisters have not been trained in hierarchies or taking a pro-active approach to leadership.  I don't blame them, but it seems often the case that when assignments are given they tend to sit back and wait for direction instead of taking the reins and moving the project forward.  When they do, they tend to work specifically within their own organizations without integrating with other stake organizations.  A primary project inviting the community may not work with the missionaries, or a young women's project involving family history may not include family history consultants.

 

We really need to work better with sisters training them on both the ward and stake levels, to help them reach their full potential as leaders. 

[mfbukowski]

Let's change the topic and look at we feel about a response:

 

• Some people in today's world prefer to have a more open sexual life and the Church conflicts with this desire for change and they leave.
• Some leave the church because they no longer are interested in paying tithing.
• Some leave because they find the Word of Wisdom too restrictive and not in line with their social life.
• Some leave because they just don't believe in the big man upstairs; for them he is just a fairy tale.
• Some leave because the whole idea of faith in a God we cannot see today as fantasy.

How do we respond to these people?  People leave for a wide range of reasons, but for some reason we want to attach special concern to two topics:  gender and sexuality.  These have become the golden calves of our society.  Should we be more concerned that some individuals find an exit card with a feminist agenda rather than one of the many others?  

 

IT is possible that throughout time that God has only operated through cultural norms and that there is not really a moral standard.  As culture and society changes God is supposed to follow along and scratch our itch for our new found moral norms.  Of course, those that desire this may just be dead wrong.  That God is the same yesterday, today, and forever; that he expects of us the same things as he has from the beginning.   

Living together outside of wedlock is a huge problem for missionaries- if one member of a pair is ready to join the church and the other is not, or if they do not want to get married, the interested investigator must be dropped.

 

The world and the church are diverging in values- that is an unfortunate fact of life.  We cannot always please everyone.

[Storm Rider]

Living together outside of wedlock is a huge problem for missionaries- if one member of a pair is ready to join the church and the other is not, or if they do not want to get married, the interested investigator must be dropped.

 

The world and the church are diverging in values- that is an unfortunate fact of life.  We cannot always please everyone.

 

I think attempting to please humanity or the desires of carnal man is folly.  The Church of Jesus Christ must retain and remain a stalwart of telling truth to humanity.  It matters not if but one person listens and follows, that is its role.  Humanity may choose to wallow in sin and degradation and scream for churches to change to meet their pursuit of meeting the desires of their heart, but that siren call of fallen nature must fall on the deaf ears of the Church.  

 

However, we need to clean our own house consistently and constantly as a church.  Where we have failed in our calling we should repent. Where we unnecessarily cause a stumbling block, we need to listen and respond in charity.  Some things are process driven and of no eternal value; some things are bedrock and fundamental and will never change unless directed by God. 

[CV75]

It is virtually all we talk about in High Council, including "Hastening the Work" and "The Perry Program" aka "Pick 5"

 

We receive instruction from our SP who receives instruction from the GA's.  It is a major effort and on the minds of all, constantly.  The goal is to increase the role of the Ward Council, which obviously includes sisters.  Attendance of the sisters can be a problem.

 

As I see it, the problem is that many sisters have not been trained in hierarchies or taking a pro-active approach to leadership.  I don't blame them, but it seems often the case that when assignments are given they tend to sit back and wait for direction instead of taking the reins and moving the project forward.  When they do, they tend to work specifically within their own organizations without integrating with other stake organizations.  A primary project inviting the community may not work with the missionaries, or a young women's project involving family history may not include family history consultants.

 

We really need to work better with sisters training them on both the ward and stake levels, to help them reach their full potential as leaders. 

My experience has been that women can be quite inclusive in carrying out their assignment. I hope I’m not over-generalizing, but those who can draw upon their personal qualities and their ability to multi-task can make a non-positional and non-hierarchal leadership style work quite well without a formal position or title, I think which men often rely on (it’s simpler!). I think it used to be called a “collaborative web” style of management, where the leader kind of networks (coaches, inspires, assigns, suggests, etc.) from his/her perceived center of the web.

 

I think women can easily get stuck when they try to manage like men, or are instructed, trained or encouraged to manage like men. They really don't have to be like men. They have the Holy Ghost and a style all their own. Again, I don't mean to over-generalize but there are some commonly observed differences, and they should be considered to be talents.

 

At any rate, I think men and women tend to employ different styles that can complement each other quite well if done by the Spirit. Experts of course can be flexible with a number of styles, as Jesus was!

[juliann]

One per ward each year is still too many.

 

Especially when the family might eventually join them.

[juliann]

It is virtually all we talk about in High Council, including "Hastening the Work" and "The Perry Program" aka "Pick 5"

 

We receive instruction from our SP who receives instruction from the GA's.  It is a major effort and on the minds of all, constantly.  The goal is to increase the role of the Ward Council, which obviously includes sisters.  Attendance of the sisters can be a problem.

 

As I see it, the problem is that many sisters have not been trained in hierarchies or taking a pro-active approach to leadership.  I don't blame them, but it seems often the case that when assignments are given they tend to sit back and wait for direction instead of taking the reins and moving the project forward.  When they do, they tend to work specifically within their own organizations without integrating with other stake organizations.  A primary project inviting the community may not work with the missionaries, or a young women's project involving family history may not include family history consultants.

 

We really need to work better with sisters training them on both the ward and stake levels, to help them reach their full potential as leaders. 

This is solution oriented and the kind of talk that needs to happen.

 

It is impossible to have a conversation about women on this board without it being hijacked (what does this topic have to do with tithing or gay marriage??), and trivialized into not following the prophet.  There is so much we can do on the local level that these distractions shouldn't even be coming up. The hard part is it requires a change of attitude and/or behavior.  Just as some women need training to function among male leadership, some men need sensitivity training in how to talk to and about women. 

[mfbukowski]

This is solution oriented and the kind of talk that needs to happen.

 

It is impossible to have a conversation about women on this board without it being hijacked (what does this topic have to do with tithing or gay marriage??), and trivialized into not following the prophet.  There is so much we can do on the local level that these distractions shouldn't even be coming up. The hard part is it requires a change of attitude and/or behavior.  Just as some women need training to function among male leadership, some men need sensitivity training in how to talk to and about women.

Well I am trying to work on that second part and the first as well.

I am not sure how we can teach sisters to assume leadership, and call bishops on the phone and ask them to remember to announce the activity or meeting, or remind them that they need to call three people to do what have you.

I know of sisters who do that very well and they are typically in key stake positions and admired by all for who they are. But somehow we need to train others. Men pick up the right style from attending lots of meetings, as a convert that's how I learned to act in the accepted manner. But I am used to following male role models and emulating their behavior- I have been doing it since birth.

But sisters don't do that naturally, they follow female role models. That is one reason I think we will end up keeping our natural complementary styles of leadership.

[mfbukowski]

My experience has been that women can be quite inclusive in carrying out their assignment. I hope I’m not over-generalizing, but those who can draw upon their personal qualities and their ability to multi-task can make a non-positional and non-hierarchal leadership style work quite well without a formal position or title, I think which men often rely on (it’s simpler!). I think it used to be called a “collaborative web” style of management, where the leader kind of networks (coaches, inspires, assigns, suggests, etc.) from his/her perceived center of the web.

 

I think women can easily get stuck when they try to manage like men, or are instructed, trained or encouraged to manage like men. They really don't have to be like men. They have the Holy Ghost and a style all their own. Again, I don't mean to over-generalize but there are some commonly observed differences, and they should be considered to be talents.

 

At any rate, I think men and women tend to employ different styles that can complement each other quite well if done by the Spirit. Experts of course can be flexible with a number of styles, as Jesus was!

I don't disagree, but retired Marines are not going to be impressed by a collaborative web style of leadership. Think of all the 30 year plus scouters in every stake, military guys and cops. Kumbaya doesn't do it.

Their wives know how to work with them but this is far different.

Edited July 2, 2014 by mfbukowski

[CV75]

But sisters don't do that naturally, they follow female role models. That is one reason I think we will end up keeping our natural complementary styles of leadership.

 

I don't disagree, but retired Marines are not going to be impressed by a collaborative web style of leadership. Think of all the 30 year plus scouters in every stake, military guys and cops. Kumbaya doesn't do it.

I think that as long as we allow one style to define complementary styles as a problem and also to drive the conversation for the solution, the actual benefits of complementary styles can't be realized. One style is no better than another except as the situation calls for it – “That which is wrong under one circumstance, may be, and often is, right under another."

 

This is the beauty of properly functioning councils. We don’t necessarily lead or manage by councils, but we make inspired, tailor-made decisions and assignments based on the available resources, of which the participants (including their leadership/management styles) are the #1 resource. Then they go out and govern themselves so to speak as to how to carry out the decisions, with instruction and guidance from their leader as needed.

 

But of course there is plenty of dysfunction to go around! We know that some personality types cannot abide some styles of leadership, but we teach that the Spirit helps us become more tolerant and work effectively with our brothers and sisters. We also teach that the Spirit helps us deal with those who cannot abide some styles of leadership!

[Rain]

I do agree that women in general bring some different strengths to the table, but I don't see this as a matter that men have more training in leadership because of their experiences. Women for years have received lots of training in PTA and charities etc. Besides the church.

I've found that when the stake president or the bishop knows how to lead well, then the leaders under him lead much better, in part because of example, but also because that kind of leadership allows for better leadership underneath. Leading well allows for those under them to lead well in their own style.

But I definitely think we, men and women, could be helped with leadership training. I would love to see it be given to all members, not just leaders, because it will help everyone become a better follower, parent and grandparent even when they don't have leadership roles.

I know my husband has been helped in church roles because he read business leadership books for his work.

[CV75]

I do agree that women in general bring some different strengths to the table, but I don't see this as a matter that men have more training in leadership because of their experiences. Women for years have received lots of training in PTA and charities etc. Besides the church.

I've found that when the stake president or the bishop knows how to lead well, then the leaders under him lead much better, in part because of example, but also because that kind of leadership allows for better leadership underneath. Leading well allows for those under them to lead well in their own style.

But I definitely think we, men and women, could be helped with leadership training. I would love to see it be given to all members, not just leaders, because it will help everyone become a better follower, parent and grandparent even when they don't have leadership roles.

I know my husband has been helped in church roles because he read business leadership books for his work.

For all the world to see (and hopefully use!): https://www.lds.org/service/leadership?lang=eng

 

LDS Leadership Training Library, complete with resources and archives covering the four basic gospel leadership principles (prepare spiritually, participate in councils, minister to others, and teach the Gospel).

[Rain]

Thanks for the link.

One of the problems with that training is people don't use the resources. They either don't make it a priority or are ignorant that it is available. I've found both to be real problems.

I am a SAHM and my time is a little more flexible than my husband's. One of the things I have done is gone through the ward mission leader training, taken notes for him and shown him clips I thought he should see.

My last bishop was going through parts of it in ward council so the other leaders could be taught little by little.

When I find church resources, and their are MANY, I share them by email or facebook or in class. Most of what I find is because I am on lds message boards. I don't think most people, including leaders, have any idea how many helps there are or how to use them.

Edited July 2, 2014 by Rain

[Storm Rider]

Wow, your own personal revealations must have been far clearer than the one's I've recieved. I'm sure glad you can tell the difference between your own justifications you think are answers to prayers, and what really are answers to prayers; because I sure have a lousy track record of it.

 

My personal revelations/spiritual experiences are irrelevant.  I am not the prophet and I expect your are not the prophet.  Have you read any scripture lately; that is a prophet's quality of revelation.  Are you telling me that a prophet today is no longer able to receive that caliber of revelation?  

 

Elf, I believe in the Church as the restored church on the earth. What I don't feel compelled to do is make excuses when something is wrong.  It is not healthy for us as members and it is not healthy for the leadership.  Just as we must be cognizant of our wrong doing, then so does the Church. 

[CV75]

Thanks for the link.

One of the problems with that training is people don't use the resources. They either don't make it a priority or are ignorant that it is available. I've found both to be real problems.

I am a SAHM and my time is a little more flexible than my husband's. One of the things I have done is gone through the ward mission leader training, taken notes for him and shown him clips I thought he should see.

My last bishop was going through parts of it in ward council so the other leaders could be taught little by little.

When I find church resources, and their are MANY, I share them by email or facebook or in class. Most of what I find is because I am on lds message boards. I don't think most people, including leaders, have any idea how many helps there are or how to use them.

Amen. We can only bring about the Gospel when we work together.

[Calm]

Thanks for the link.

One of the problems with that training is people don't use the resources. They either don't make it a priority or are ignorant that it is available. I've found both to be real problems.

I am a SAHM and my time is a little more flexible than my husband's. One of the things I have done is gone through the ward mission leader training, taken notes for him and shown him clips I thought he should see.

My last bishop was going through parts of it in ward council so the other leaders could be taught little by little.

When I find church resources, and their are MANY, I share them by email or facebook or in class. Most of what I find is because I am on lds message boards. I don't think most people, including leaders, have any idea how many helps there are or how to use them.

as a former librarian, I can second this. I think it is one reason the Church went to including everything in Primary manuals for the most part, because teachers would only use what they could put their hands on themselves and not what others provided. Even weekly packets that pulled all suggested materials together that all they had to do was grab as they walked by the library were ignored by most.

When I would reference instructions from leadership manuals in training lessons, few read them. Just put them in the pile of stuff that got passed on with the calling to the next job.

Edited July 2, 2014 by calmoriah