Losing Saints, Keeping Saints

[stemelbow]

I warned them letting women pray in General Conference would cause problems but no one ever listens to me.

Problem was, the leak was all ready to bust the dam thanks to all the concessions that were already given women. Now it seems putting the finger over the hole isn't going to hold back the great rush that is coming.

[Zakuska]

Weve come a long way from women being mimes in church as per Pauls concils.

[Bernard Gui]

 

IT is possible that throughout time that God has only operated through cultural norms and that there is not really a moral standard.  As culture and society changes God is supposed to follow along and scratch our itch for our new found moral norms.  Of course, those that desire this may just be dead wrong.  That God is the same yesterday, today, and forever; that he expects of us the same things as he has from the beginning.   

On the other hand, we are given only the law we are able to abide. We progress line by line, precept by precept.

We may also go the other way by increments.

[blooit]

How many of those who leave because of "women's issues" are:

1) Men.  We know that more men support the ordination of women than women.

2) Leaving anyway... but need a reason.  I realize that not all who leave are necessarily "in the depths of sin" - but many have multiple issues with the church and will simply list the most "hip" reasons for leaving - which will be gay marriage and women and the priesthood.

 

I guess what I am saying is that I do not think there are even a thousand, certainly not tens of thousands, of women leaving the church simply because of women's issues.  MHO of course.

[stemelbow]

Weve come a long way from women being mimes in church as per Pauls concils.

70-90 percent of communication is nonverbal. Paul's counsel seems to be suggest women shouldn't be mimes so much as humans in straight jackets and gags placed in their mouths, veils covering their faces.

[stemelbow]

How many of those who leave because of "women's issues" are:

1) Men.  We know that more men support the ordination of women than women.

2) Leaving anyway... but need a reason.  I realize that not all who leave are necessarily "in the depths of sin" - but many have multiple issues with the church and will simply list the most "hip" reasons for leaving - which will be gay marriage and women and the priesthood.

 

I guess what I am saying is that I do not think there are even a thousand, certainly not tens of thousands, of women leaving the church simply because of women's issues.  MHO of course.

Perhaps womens issues also factor into why people aren't even considering joining the church. This could effect more than just leavers.

[eddie]

Uh...it might be wise to consider that of the 60-70% inactivity many through their own free will have decided to not go back because of things like women's issues. If you're concerned about that big number, keep in mind, they are composed of, at least in part, people who have decided to leave.

I am in an elder's quorum presidency. I visit a lot of inactive people just by nature of my calling. The vast majority of people that are inactive from what I have seen are for the following reasons in order:

1. Apathy. Most plain and simply don't have any desire to perform the work the church requires of active members. This is the biggest reason by far that I have seen.

2. WoW issues. It is difficult for the drinker or smoker to break the habit and feel welcome.

3. Other worthiness issues, most people have a hard time finding their way back when they fall so far away.

4. Other members offended them. This can go with #'s two and three and also may mean they don't like a ward/bishop.

5. Issues with doctrine/church history. This is by far the least common, and usually occurs only among the most active members that decide to leave. Generally the most active are the least likely to leave, but it happens. The also become the most vocal in their opposition.

As I say we all have agency, and from what I have observed the majority of inactives end up that way simply because it was never important enough in their life to make the sacrifice to live it.

[stemelbow]

I am in an elder's quorum presidency. I visit a lot of inactive people just by nature of my calling. The vast majority of people that are inactive from what I have seen are for the following reasons in order:

1. Apathy. Most plain and simply don't have any desire to perform the work the church requires of active members. This is the biggest reason by far that I have seen.

2. WoW issues. It is difficult for the drinker or smoker to break the habit and feel welcome.

3. Other worthiness issues, most people have a hard time finding their way back when they fall so far away.

4. Other members offended them. This can go with #'s two and three and also may mean they don't like a ward/bishop.

5. Issues with doctrine/church history. This is by far the least common, and usually occurs only among the most active members that decide to leave. Generally the most active are the least likely to leave, but it happens. The also become the most vocal in their opposition.

As I say we all have agency, and from what I have observed the majority of inactives end up that way simply because it was never important enough in their life to make the sacrifice to live it.

Hey Eddie. I'm in an EQPresidency currently too. I think your list of reasons is about in the right order too.

[Carebear0411]

It is very troubling when anyone leaves, but I do have a special concern for those with women's issues, because my father and stepmother who have unofficially left the church cite those issues. I find women's roles in the church troubling. I have questions that remain unanswered. I love the church and love Christ. I find that we've acknowledged the problem by making a handful of small improvements, but it isn't much.

May I ask what changes you and your parents do think would improve the Church? Will extending the PH to women do the trick? I guarantee you that will only add to the problem, not solve it. Once women have access to traditionally male populated positions of authority, how will those women assure themselves of those positions? The organizations now pushing for female priests would obviously not be happy until true "equality" were reached. Who would decide what numerical goal would evidence "equality"? How would those numbers be inforced? Would quotas be set up? Would all quorums have to have a certain % of women to be determined inclusive?

 

When politics injects itself into revealed religion, there is no happy ending.

[eddie]

Hey Eddie. I'm in an EQPresidency currently too. I think your list of reasons is about in the right order too.

Yes, I probably should add that testimony issues go along with all of these, but probably in a somewhat inverse relationship. That is most from group 1 never had the full exposure or testimony, while those in group 5 did and often become the most bitter and devoted opponents of the church.

Just a nonscientific observation.

[stemelbow]

When politics injects itself into revealed religion, there is no happy ending.

Gross!

[rameumptom]

One per ward each year is still too many.

 

 

Really?  What if that one per ward is leaving each year due to choosing to be an atheist?  Should we allow atheists to be active members in the Church, perform priesthood ordinances and serve in the temple, even though they would deny the most basic tenets of the Church: God and Jesus Christ live?

 

Should we stop driving cars, because 25,000 people a year are killed in car accidents?

 

We have to deal with realities, not with Utopia.  Some people choose not to follow the Lord's path.  Shall we force them to comply, as with the Inquisition?  How would you propose we keep them from leaving?

 

And if we adopted extreme concepts, such as other religions have done, how is that to keep us from losing anyone?  Those liberal churches that have endorsed same sex marriage, and ordination of gay priests, etc., are losing many more people than we are.

 

Major change occurs in the LDS Church, not by popular vote, but by revelation.  This is what keeps so many active and believing in the Church.  As it is, the parable of the Ten Virgins almost anticipates 50% of lesser activity and belief.  Most of those who go inactive do it because of distractions of the world, word of wisdom, sexual activity, etc., not because of intellectual issues.  Few active members knew about OW and Kate Kelly. Even fewer inactives would have known about her or Dehlin.

[DJBrown]

I don't know that anyone knows all whom God has justified. This seems like a ridiculous request.

 

I don't think that about myself at all. I think I know less than the least among us, or somewhere down there.

 

What you call circumstances I call outside pressure. I'm not saying public pressure so much. But that perhaps had some play in there too. Afterall, by 1978 to think a church could remain so racist and exist was probably becoming less and less possible.

 

The scriptures are filled with examples of God standing by His prophets when there is conflict between those prophets and society.  They are also filled with examples of God condemning people for rejecting His prophets.  I can think of no example of God siding with any individual or group of people who rejected His prophets.

 

I think that means something.

[mormonnewb]

I warned them letting women pray in General Conference would cause problems but no one ever listens to me.

The bigger problem was letting them learn to read and write in the first place

Seriously, I recently heard a saint express indignity that, by day, she was an ER doctor who regularly made decisions over life and death, yet, in her Church, she had to run even the smallest decisions by her bishop. Some will call that being "prideful" but I know that I would have never joined this Church had I been told that by virtue of race, I should accept that despite having, say, a law degree, my ecclesiastical authority would never exceed that of a 12 yo BOY.

And just wait until the leader of the free world is a WOMAN. It's going to cause a lot of people to question the dichotomy of a world in which women are given ultimate leadership authority and a Church in which they have almost none. Perhaps, they will conclude that "this is just the way God wants it," but I don't think the odds are in our favor.

[ERayR]

One per ward each year is still too many.

 

Do you mean like if we would only save one of those through unauthorized (by God) doctrinal change it would be worth it. Sorry but that would not save anyone but would condemn the whole 15,000,000. 

[ksfisher]

Seriously, I recently heard a saint express indignity that, by day, she was an ER doctor who regularly made decisions over life and death, yet, in her Church, she had to run even the smallest decisions by her bishop. Some will call that being "prideful" but I know that I would have never joined this Church had I been told that by virtue of race, I should accept that despite having, say, a law degree, my ecclesiastical authority would never exceed that of a 12 yo BOY.

 

 

How does this ecclesiastical authority  that you mention translate into the real world?  What authority does an Aaronic Priesthood holder have over someone who doesn't hold the priesthood?  Or perhaps I'm misunderstanding what you mean by "exceeed." 

[stemelbow]

The scriptures are filled with examples of God standing by His prophets when there is conflict between those prophets and society.  They are also filled with examples of God condemning people for rejecting His prophets.  I can think of no example of God siding with any individual or group of people who rejected His prophets.

 

I think that means something.

Nobody is talking about rejecting His prophets.

[Rain]

Really? What if that one per ward is leaving each year due to choosing to be an atheist? Should we allow atheists to be active members in the Church, perform priesthood ordinances and serve in the temple, even though they would deny the most basic tenets of the Church: God and Jesus Christ live?

Should we stop driving cars, because 25,000 people a year are killed in car accidents?

We have to deal with realities, not with Utopia. Some people choose not to follow the Lord's path. Shall we force them to comply, as with the Inquisition? How would you propose we keep them from leaving?

And if we adopted extreme concepts, such as other religions have done, how is that to keep us from losing anyone? Those liberal churches that have endorsed same sex marriage, and ordination of gay priests, etc., are losing many more people than we are.

Major change occurs in the LDS Church, not by popular vote, but by revelation. This is what keeps so many active and believing in the Church. As it is, the parable of the Ten Virgins almost anticipates 50% of lesser activity and belief. Most of those who go inactive do it because of distractions of the world, word of wisdom, sexual activity, etc., not because of intellectual issues. Few active members knew about OW and Kate Kelly. Even fewer inactives would have known about her or Dehlin.

no one is talking about forcing people to stay in church. Those of us who feel one is too many wonder if there isn't something more we can do to help them have a desire to stay.

[Duncan]

The bigger problem was letting them learn to read and write in the first place

Seriously, I recently heard a saint express indignity that, by day, she was an ER doctor who regularly made decisions over life and death, yet, in her Church, she had to run even the smallest decisions by her bishop. Some will call that being "prideful" but I know that I would have never joined this Church had I been told that by virtue of race, I should accept that despite having, say, a law degree, my ecclesiastical authority would never exceed that of a 12 yo BOY.

And just wait until the leader of the free world is a WOMAN. It's going to cause a lot of people to question the dichotomy of a world in which women are given ultimate leadership authority and a Church in which they have almost none. Perhaps, they will conclude that "this is just the way God wants it," but I don't think the odds are in our favor.

 

 

i have a Dr. Friend who when he was an intern or something assisted in heart surgery and held someone's heart in his hands and yet later that day he found he couldn't be given keys to the institute building because he wasn't married yet (and his calling then was at the building so he needed keys!) So, things like this happen to men and women. We shouldn't compare degrees to priesthood authority because their realms are different. Are you better than someone else because you have a law degree? Is someone a better lawyer because they went to Yale than someone who went to the U of Toronto? is patent law better than contract law?

[eddie]

Seriously, I recently heard a saint express indignity that, by day, she was an ER doctor who regularly made decisions over life and death, yet, in her Church, she had to run even the smallest decisions by her bishop. Some will call that being "prideful" but I know that I would have never joined this Church had I been told that by virtue of race, I should accept that despite having, say, a law degree, my ecclesiastical authority would never exceed that of a 12 yo BOY.

A deacon has no authority over the Relief Society, Primary, or any other organization in the ward outside of the Deacon's Quorum.

They have the authority to pass the sacrament and collect fast offerings, but they don't have any authority to dictate how something should be run outside of their own calling.

I am an elder, and I have no authority to dictate how the Relief Society is run. When we work with them on project for members of the ward we coordinate and correlate as equal organizations, not as Elder's presiding over them. You could state that with any organization.

Edited June 30, 2014 by eddie

[LoudmouthMormon]

Looks like we got 1855-1856 beat.

 

[DJBrown]

Nobody is talking about rejecting His prophets.

 

We are talking about people leaving the church as a result of intellectual disagreements with the prophets.  Is that not rejection of a prophet?

[watermelongirl]

May I ask what changes you and your parents do think would improve the Church? Will extending the PH to women do the trick? I guarantee you that will only add to the problem, not solve it. Once women have access to traditionally male populated positions of authority, how will those women assure themselves of those positions? The organizations now pushing for female priests would obviously not be happy until true "equality" were reached. Who would decide what numerical goal would evidence "equality"? How would those numbers be inforced? Would quotas be set up? Would all quorums have to have a certain % of women to be determined inclusive?

 

When politics injects itself into revealed religion, there is no happy ending.

 

It's been twenty years since I've talked to either of them about their issues. My stepmother specifically chose to inactivate herself because of priesthood leadership abuses on her mission.  My dad listed women's equality as one of many reasons.

 

As for me, I'm not going anywhere. The gospel is true, but there are things we can improve. I don't understand why people get so defensive about the possibility of improving the church structure.

 

Here's the same list I posted before: http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/63758-practical-implications-of-ordaining-women-to-the-priesthood/?p=1209394376

[ELF1024]

Seriously, I recently heard a saint express indignity that, by day, she was an ER doctor who regularly made decisions over life and death, yet, in her Church, she had to run even the smallest decisions by her bishop. Some will call that being "prideful" but I know that I would have never joined this Church had I been told that by virtue of race, I should accept that despite having, say, a law degree, my ecclesiastical authority would never exceed that of a 12 yo BOY.

 

I call it a fundamental misunderstanding the the way the church works.

 

I fail to see the issue, or the hugh-manatee, with the having a Relief Society President bringing issues to a Bishop.

 

Most Bishops I have known generally trust the people they assign to such positions, (which is why they are in those positions to start with) and barring something completely outrageous, they will be happy to rubber-stamp whatever the RS President (Sunday School President, Primary President, Etc, Etc, Etc) comes up with. Bishops, most of the time, have full time jobs on top of their full time ward, and family responsiblities.

 

(Snark) It would seem that many of the sisters here would seem to believe the only, Stay At Home Mom's, are respected by the church... it would seem to follow  that most RS Presidents must have all the time in the world to be busybodies. (End Snark)

 

If the Bishop did not trust them to be able to magnify their callings, then would he have placed them there in the first place?

Edited June 30, 2014 by ELF1024

[Rain]

I don't understand why people get so defensive about the possibility of improving the church structure.

 

Funny you should say that as I was just wondering this of myself just before I read what you said. 

 

I admit to not liking general RS meetings all that much because I get tired of the "you are so great" talk.  I'm confident in who I am. I don't need to be told. I would like to learn more doctrinal things or know where I can improve.  A big reason I loved, loved, loved Sister Beck's Mother Who Know talk.

 

I got frustrated in a calling I had a couple of years ago when no one would tell me things I needed to know - I was supposed to pray and the Spirit was supposed to tell me those things and then how to take care of them while everyone else who needed to know was told those things and used the Spirit in how to take care of those things.  Then I got even more frustrated when I was given the authority to do those things only when working under the RSP, EQP or HPGL and no one actually wanted help with it.

 

I sat in BYC meetings where I was told I had a voice and everything I said was shot down.  My daughter has had similar experiences.  

 

I could list other reasons that go along with the idea that church structure could be improved,  but still sometimes I want to yell "wo! Back off.  Slow down!" 

 

I know I feel very defensive because what has gone on with OW.  The church has been a great blessing to me.  I have received great insight from these men on who I am and where I am going.  I want to jump up and shield them.  I want to shield my own heart.

 

I feel frustrated because many of the things that happened to me didn't happen because I was female.  They happened to the boys as well.  Those BYC meetings?  None of us had a voice.

 

I feel ashamed when I later listen/read to those talk in general RS and gain insight from the Spirit that I missed the first time around because I felt the talks wouldn't be good enough for me. 

 

I get irritated because the men in my life are put down again and again How I would love to have a talk spoken to my sons that they are doing well.  That they are great.  Not because they have the priesthood, but because of who they are.  

 

Sometimes I get frustrated because it seems like the talk is all "it's not fair! It needs to change" and "it's from the Lord! Don't change it!" and not near enough talk of "how can I change and see what the Lord wants, look upon my fellow church member's heart and do what needs to be done in my little corner of the world?"