Apostasy And Satan

[Storm Rider]

When I think of apostasy or any activity that would cause an individual to be excommunicated I equate whatever their actions were that merited such an action by the Church to be influenced and motivated by several things:

 

1. That the individual has lost their sense of right and wrong
2. their desire to listen to the Spirit has been forfeited in favor of alternative influences
3. the carnal world, regardless of the specific passion involved, have the focus of the individual
4. a desire to fight against God, his Kingdom, and Zion
5. an unrepentant heart - no recognition of wrong doing and no desire to change their ways
6. a desire for wickedness - anything that conflicts with the teachings of God (I don't think this is absolute, but more often it begins with one area and then may grow to encompass all areas, thus it is a range of degrees of desire for wickedness)

​Excommunication for some is accompanied with immediate and profound regret and sorrow.  Others remain adamant that they are right and all others are wrong.  Should we equate those who experience with profound sorrow with those who declare that they are right and will not change their ways?  How should we view them?  How should the Church view them?  

 

What concerns me is that there are some members of the Church who see an excommunication as punitive.  That is not its intention or the Church's desire when such action is merited. As someone said elsewhere, an individual excommunicates themselves long before the Church takes action.

 

In addition, there are others who believe that any description of such behavior that merits excommunication to be over the top or unrealistic.  They refuse the descriptions as being in the thrall of Satan.  If not Satan exactly what influence is involved that causes one to be excommunicated?  Is Satan involved or is it the independent actions of a sole individual acting without influence?  

 

Those who reject describing such actions as being under the influence of Satan necessarily condone the actions of these individuals who have been excommunicated and attempt to dress their behavior in silk.  As my mother always said, "You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear,"  

 

Why are some so reticent to condemn the behavior of those that were excommunicated?  What motivates such a reticence?  Worse, infinitely worse, are those who react badly because these actions of the excommunicated are identified as being influenced by Satan and motivated by the passions of this carnal world.  Where does this discomfort come from and how is it best handled?

 

When sin is called good and good is called sin, what hope is there for righteousness to be cherished or valued?  

[thesometimesaint]

We're really in no position to judge if the person is mentally delayed or mentally ill. When it comes to knowing right from wrong in Church Discipline.

Edited June 25, 2014 by thesometimesaint

[Storm Rider]

We're really in no position to judge if the person is mentally delayed or mentally ill. When it comes to knowing right from wrong in Church Discipline.

 

I do not understand your comment; can you expand on that.  I never alleged that someone was mentally delayed or ill when excommunicated; those are irrelevant issues.  Do you think the Church excommunicates people who are mentally handicapped?  

 

Or are you saying that those who are excommunicated they do not know the difference between right and wrong?  I remain confused with your comment. 

[Ahab]

Sometimes its just ignorance of or not realizing what is true and righteous, like Adam and Eve who didn't really have knowledge of good and evil before they got it by eating from that tree.

Yes they were influenced by Satan, without realizing Satan was the bad guy, and yes they did know what God had told them, without realizing he was the good guy, but they still didn't know or realize the difference between good and evil.

Hopefully with some more experience in this world people like Kate and John will learn that difference and choose to do what the good guy says they should do.

[Storm Rider]

Sometimes its just ignorance of or not realizing what is true and righteous, like Adam and Eve who didn't really have knowledge of good and evil before they got it by eating from that tree.

Yes they were influenced by Satan, without realizing Satan was the bad guy, and yes they did know what God had told them, without realizing he was the good guy, but they still didn't know or realize the difference between good and evil.

Hopefully with some more experience in this world people like Kate and John will learn that difference and choose to do what the good guy says they should do.

 

Ahab, this may fit where the environment is one of total ignorance of right and wrong; however, that is not the present situation.  In our day and age and particularly in the current situation, there are multiple warnings given that the path that an individual is pursuing is not spiritually healthy; that it is, in fact, error and/or sinful.  Would you agree with this?

 

If we assume that the prophet speaks and local leaders are working with individuals and warning them of the error of their ways, how can we assume they are ignorant of the danger of their path.  More importantly, why would we continue to make up excuses for them?  Should we be reticent to identify certain things as error or false or should be paint them as challenging and that those involved are well meaning folks that are just having a problem?

[juliann]

 

 

Why are some so reticent to condemn the behavior of those that were excommunicated?  What motivates such a reticence?  Worse, infinitely worse, are those who react badly because these actions of the excommunicated are identified as being influenced by Satan and motivated by the passions of this carnal world.  Where does this discomfort come from and how is it best handled?

 

By avoiding Pres. Uchtdorf's talks for sure.... and any self-reflection about our own encounters with Satan's influence.   https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2012/04/the-merciful-obtain-mercy?lang=eng

 

But when it comes to our own prejudices and grievances, we too often justify our anger as righteous and our judgment as reliable and only appropriate. Though we cannot look into another’s heart, we assume that we know a bad motive or even a bad person when we see one. We make exceptions when it comes to our own bitterness because we feel that, in our case, we have all the information we need to hold someone else in contempt.

 

 

Stop it!

 

It’s that simple. We simply have to stop judging others and replace judgmental thoughts and feelings with a heart full of love for God and His children. God is our Father. We are His children. We are all brothers and sisters. I don’t know exactly how to articulate this point of not judging others with sufficient eloquence, passion, and persuasion to make it stick. I can quote scripture, I can try to expound doctrine, and I will even quote a bumper sticker I recently saw. It was attached to the back of a car whose driver appeared to be a little rough around the edges, but the words on the sticker taught an insightful lesson. It read, “Don’t judge me because I sin differently than you.”

 

 

My dear brothers and sisters, consider the following questions as a self-test:

 

Do you harbor a grudge against someone else?

Do you gossip, even when what you say may be true?

Do you exclude, push away, or punish others because of something they have done?

Do you secretly envy another?

Do you wish to cause harm to someone?

If you answered yes to any of these questions, you may want to apply the two-word sermon from earlier: stop it!

 

In a world of accusations and unfriendliness, it is easy to gather and cast stones. But before we do so, let us remember the words of the One who is our Master and model: “He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone.”¹²

 

[Storm Rider]

Juliann, 

 

In my mind the attempt to judge another's heart or their motivations have nothing to do with judging between good actions/behavior and bad actions/behavior.  Further, it is absolutely requisite that we gain an understanding of what is evil or wrong behavior and what is good.  There are instances where what is judged as evil can be good, but these are few and far between and only under the direct command of God.  I am thinking of Nephi slaying Laban versus the command to do not kill.

 

Is there anything that the membership can learn from the excommunication of Ms. KK or should that just be a blank slate in our minds without any lessons to teach us?  

Edited June 26, 2014 by Storm Rider

[strappinglad]

Those who have lived for some time in Utah will be familiar with the case of the Lafferty brothers. In their youth they were clean cut lads who followed the gospel and were leaders in the Church. They began to have a disagreement with the Church stand that one should pay taxes. They took this to extremes and eventually left the Church and joined with like minded folks who happened to be polygamous. One thing led to another and they tried to pressure a sibling and his wife to join them. The wife refused. The brothers then took a step for which I believe there is no forgiveness in this life or the next. They murdered the wife and her infant child.

I am not saying that everyone who leaves the Church will follow this path, far from it. But the brothers are poster boys for just how far astray Satan can lead faithful members who start out with just a little ' disagreement ' over a point of doctrine.

[Storm Rider]

Those who have lived for some time in Utah will be familiar with the case of the Lafferty brothers. In their youth they were clean cut lads who followed the gospel and were leaders in the Church. They began to have a disagreement with the Church stand that one should pay taxes. They took this to extremes and eventually left the Church and joined with like minded folks who happened to be polygamous. One thing led to another and they tried to pressure a sibling and his wife to join them. The wife refused. The brothers then took a step for which I believe there is no forgiveness in this life or the next. They murdered the wife and her infant child.

I am not saying that everyone who leaves the Church will follow this path, far from it. But the brothers are poster boys for just how far astray Satan can lead faithful members who start out with just a little ' disagreement ' over a point of doctrine.

 

This is a classic example where I hope no one will disagree that Satan led these two men astray ending in a horrible end.  What I find astonishing is how many members are loath to condemn the actions of Ms. KK.  It is as if there is an assumption that the Church can excommunicate whoever they want, but that does not really mean that the individuals did anything wrong.  More importantly, that she was not under the influence of Satan.  

 

Satan seeks all of God's children astray.  That is a fact that we should remember and all have fallen under his influence and guidance.  Why is Ms. KK different?  What makes her actions so admirable by some of the members?  Further, why are others so terrified to condemn her actions?

[Tsuzuki]

What I find astonishing is how many members are loath to condemn the actions of Ms. KK.  It is as if there is an assumption that the Church can excommunicate whoever they want, but that does not really mean that the individuals did anything wrong.  More importantly, that she was not under the influence of Satan.  

 

Satan seeks all of God's children astray.  That is a fact that we should remember and all have fallen under his influence and guidance.  Why is Ms. KK different?  What makes her actions so admirable by some of the members?  Further, why are others so terrified to condemn her actions?

Maybe it's because they know they aren't Sister Kelly's local leaders, and that it isn't their place to judge her.

[The Nehor]

 

Those who reject describing such actions as being under the influence of Satan necessarily condone the actions of these individuals who have been excommunicated and attempt to dress their behavior in silk.  As my mother always said, "You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear,"  

 

This is unfair. Satan is not the source of all evil. He is evil but not the end all and be all. Or, as my Mission President once said, "Be careful about casting out evil spirits. Make sure that the evil spirit isn't the only one in the body." People are capable of being evil without demonic influence.

[Ahab]

Ahab, this may fit where the environment is one of total ignorance of right and wrong; however, that is not the present situation. In our day and age and particularly in the current situation, there are multiple warnings given that the path that an individual is pursuing is not spiritually healthy; that it is, in fact, error and/or sinful. Would you agree with this?

So people telling other people what is right and what is wrong is supposed to somehow teach people what is right and what is wrong? You really think so? What about when people don't agree with other people? Who is right and who is wrong and how are people supposed to be able to tell the difference? I know the way, but not all people do, even though just about everybody acts like they do. Do you agree with me now?

If we assume that the prophet speaks and local leaders are working with individuals and warning them of the error of their ways, how can we assume they are ignorant of the danger of their path. More importantly, why would we continue to make up excuses for them? Should we be reticent to identify certain things as error or false or should be paint them as challenging and that those involved are well meaning folks that are just having a problem?

Come on now. I think you may need to ponder to realize how ignorant some people are.

[strappinglad]

I remember reading somewhere that the people were always being told to repent and admonished for their sins and warned about destruction. Of course it was done in a kind manner without actually specifically saying that what they were doing was wrong.

[Ahab]

I remember reading somewhere that the people were always being told to repent and admonished for their sins and warned about destruction. Of course it was done in a kind manner without actually specifically saying that what they were doing was wrong.

Have you ever watched TV shows on TBN where what some people call Christian ministers are preaching that basic message? Baptist ministers are renown for preaching fire and brimstone sermons, and a LOT of other what they call evangelical ministers are pretty good at doing that too. You can find lots of people who will preach to you, mingling scripture with many of the philosophies of men, and most if not all will quote straight from the Bible when declaring their message, with each one acting like what they are saying is right while what they are saying is contradictory to what some other people will tell you is right. So called Christian ministers aren't the only ones in the world who will tell you what is right and what is wrong, and even in the same organization, whether it's a university or a church, people contradict each other. Which one is right, if there is one that is right, and how would you know it? Like I said, I know the way, but not all people do, and its not because there aren't a lot of people in the world who aren't willing to share what in their mind is right and what is wrong. Even Kate and John will tell you what they think is right and what is wrong. Edited June 26, 2014 by Ahab

[Storm Rider]

This is unfair. Satan is not the source of all evil. He is evil but not the end all and be all. Or, as my Mission President once said, "Be careful about casting out evil spirits. Make sure that the evil spirit isn't the only one in the body." People are capable of being evil without demonic influence.

 

I have heard it said that Satan is the father of all contention.  However, I understand that two people can contend with each other as a choice; how is responsible?  Was Satan completely absent from the situation or formula?  

 

This is also a case of semantics.  The idea that "the devil made me do it" does not fly and is not an assumption in anything I have said.  People choose evil just as they choose good.  We acknowledge that all grace comes from Christ just as all good does also and evil comes from Satan (Moroni 7).  

 

I agree with the proposal of Moroni 7 that at the heart of all evil is Satan just as I agree that all good comes from God. 

[Avatar4321]

Maybe it's because they know they aren't Sister Kelly's local leaders, and that it isn't their place to judge her.

 

Is it judging her to recognize the spirit of rebellion and pride she carries?

[Tsuzuki]

Is it judging her to recognize the spirit of rebellion and pride she carries?

Yes. That is the very definition, and it's not your job.

[Avatar4321]

Yes. That is the very definition, and it's not your job.

 

Then why does moroni show us the way to judge between good and evil?

[rpn]

Condemning an action ---KK's six discussions and encouragement to form groups of women in the church to teach them about ordaining women, and JD's giving space for Sandra Tanner; Rumnel who wrote ltr to CES director arguing how the church is false, Rock Waterman who teaches people that church doctrine really only requires paying tithing on the amount left over after you've met your needs; and Tom Phillips who sued the church on grounds it is a fraud --- is not the same thing as having a good reason to demonize the persons called to a DC.   Indeed we can only look at the actions, though we know that the Lord also looks upon the heart.   In that respect, mortals can get it messed up.   (NOTE that while it would be helpful if the letters we read actually identified the specific objectionable acts, so far they have not:  KK's ltr announcing it was better. 

 

In any case it [criticism of people and demonizing them] flies in the face of LDS doctrine;  let those who are without sin cast the first stone. 

 

It is easy to make broad allegations about being in satan's camp when mortals do things that are contrary to God's commandments.   Fact is that mortals are quite capable of messing up on their own, and we often don't need satan to do anything to persuade us off track.    

 

Mortals often make unwarranted assumptions about pride, when it could be something else.  We often condemn others when we are charged with giving them the benefit of the doubt, loving without regard to their faults.   Humans see a reaction to a DC and  unrighteously label the member involved, when the most we can know is that the person is no longer a member in good standing of the church.  

 

IME, a person can be square with God and not be in good standing in the church (though because one element of being square with Him is being cleared by the church, still with that hurdle to clear as it cannot be bypassed when the earthly keys to that stuff are assigned to a prophet).  And people who are in good standing with the church can be absolutely NOT square with God, who knows what church leaders don't about both our actions and our intentions and capabilities.

 

And that is just one more reason that all this ugliness suggesting that KK or anyone else is satan's minion or evil or anything more than shouldn't have done X, Y or Z., may well be putting those who do it in a position with God that is worse than the position KK or the others are in.

 

We are judged based our our personal best within our capability and knowledge.   With our personal best and the atonement we are perfect in Christ.   When otherwise faithful members are talking trash about  others and analyzing their motives and who they are publicly, they may be outside that atonement because we are expected and capable of being better and doing  better.   And in the process those who do it may affirmatively hurt others.

 

Can't we just stop it!

[thesometimesaint]

I do not understand your comment; can you expand on that.  I never alleged that someone was mentally delayed or ill when excommunicated; those are irrelevant issues.  Do you think the Church excommunicates people who are mentally handicapped?  

 

Or are you saying that those who are excommunicated they do not know the difference between right and wrong?  I remain confused with your comment. 

 

Have we ex'd those with mental health problems? Yes.

 

Totally depends on what the mental health issue is.

[thesometimesaint]

Juliann, 

 

In my mind the attempt to judge another's heart or their motivations have nothing to do with judging between good actions/behavior and bad actions/behavior.  Further, it is absolutely requisite that we gain an understanding of what is evil or wrong behavior and what is good.  There are instances where what is judged as evil can be good, but these are few and far between and only under the direct command of God.  I am thinking of Nephi slaying Laban versus the command to do not kill.

 

Is there anything that the membership can learn from the excommunication of Ms. KK or should that just be a blank slate in our minds without any lessons to teach us?  

 

In normally competent adults motivation is usually a side issue. We usually infer them from actions taken. That being said young children, those that through mental retardation, or mental illness, motivation and an ability to understand the nature of the bad behavior become paramount.

[Storm Rider]

Have we ex'd those with mental health problems? Yes.

 

Totally depends on what the mental health issue is.

 

I am still confused. What does this have to do with the topic?

[Calm]

This is also a case of semantics. The idea that "the devil made me do it" does not fly and is not an assumption in anything I have said. People choose evil just as they choose good. We acknowledge that all grace comes from Christ just as all good does also and evil comes from Satan (Moroni 7).

I agree with the proposal of Moroni 7 that at the heart of all evil is Satan just as I agree that all good comes from God.

I think Satan here is more a symbol for the natural man that is a part of everyone.

All good comes from Christ because he has the ability to connect directly with each individual through the light of Christ, no matter how young or old. I don't know of any doctrine that suggests Satan has the same ability or attribute and doctrine states those who are not accountable due to mental development (little children) are not allowed to be influenced directly by Satan so it would appear there is no "dark of Satan" in each individual.

There is however the natural man and that is very much present in young children and would be the source for the wrong they choose to do....so it makes sense to me that Satan is symbolic here.

Before Christ assumed his role as our Saviour, the Father existed as God, did he not? Is Christ the source of the Father's good?

I wonder how many LDS believe that no one had ever even considered doing wrong before somehow Satan being some extraordinary being allowed his pride to take him into rebellion and at that point suddenly there was evil.

Doesn't make a lot of sense in the context of the scripture on opposition (not that all opposition is evil, somethings are just difficult but to know good one must know of evil or so we are taught).

Edited June 26, 2014 by calmoriah

[Tsuzuki]

Then why does moroni show us the way to judge between good and evil?

So we can judge our own actions. Or if you are a judge in Israel, the actions of only those who you've been appointed to judge.

[The Nehor]

Yes. That is the very definition, and it's not your job.

 

It's more of a hobby for me.