"visions Of Glory" - Nonsense? Or Legit?

[Garden Girl]

 

OK, for accuracy, here are random quotes:

 

. . .as I walked through a desk I was stunned by what I felt.  It was longing for redemption.  I realized that recently a series of love letters had been written at this desk promoting an affair that ultimately would injure many people.  I knew the content of every letter and the true emotion and manipulation of the writer as well as the reaction of the reader.  I moved away, not wanting to remain in that stream of torrid details.  I went through the couch, and it likewise testified of the same affair and unrighteous events that had occurred here, some recently.  I could not find any place in that beautiful office that was not saddened or offended or crying for redemption. 

p. 35

 

"I turned around to see who had spoken my name.  I was astonished to

see Jesus Christ standing in the parking lot where the sidewalk

begins."  p 58.

 

 

Oh m'Gosh... people are actually embracing this??  Words escape me... except like Sethpayne, Good Grief!!

 

GG

[JLHPROF]

Oh m'Gosh... people are actually embracing this??  Words escape me... except like Sethpayne, Good Grief!!

 

GG

 

Oh it happens and will continue to happen.  Remember Betty Eadie's "Embraced By The Light".  This made the rounds in the 90's and was a huge success among certain segments of church membership.  Now most people politely refer to it as "Taken In By The Light".

 

There has always been a portion of LDS society who will buy into the lastest story.  It was going on in Joseph Smith's day and it continues to this day.

[Garden Girl]

Oh it happens and will continue to happen.  Remember Betty Eadie's "Embraced By The Light".  This made the rounds in the 90's and was a huge success among certain segments of church membership.  Now most people politely refer to it as "Taken In By The Light".

 

There has always been a portion of LDS society who will buy into the lastest story.  It was going on in Joseph Smith's day and it continues to this day.

Hello JLH...

I read "Embraced by the Light" and actually liked a lot of it...  it is/was nothing like reported/quoted in "Visions..."  There were lots of parallels to the gospel which is why I think it was so popular... and things I didn't agree with at all, but chalked it up to her own interpretation.  At least it was reasonable vs Juliann's quotes in her post #26 about "walking through the desk and couch" and knowing the terrible things that took place in and on them. etc.  IIRC it was after "Embraced..." that Betty really went off track and got into folklore and mysticism with native American overtones because of her heritage. 

 

GG

Edited June 22, 2014 by Garden Girl

[JLHPROF]

Hello JLH...

I read "Embraced by the Light" and actually liked a lot of it...  it is/was nothing like reported/quoted in "Visions..."  There were lots of parallels to the gospel which is why I think it was so popular... and things I didn't agree with at all, but chalked it up to her own interpretation.  At least it was reasonable vs Juliann's quotes in her post #26 about "walking through the desk and couch" and knowing the terrible things that took place in and on them. etc.  IIRC it was after "Embraced..." that Betty really went off track and got into folklore and mysticism with native American overtones because of her heritage. 

 

GG

 

I think you are right about the after story - the native American mysticism etc.  But then it all comes down to the question - "If there are things in her story that are false or go against gospel truth then is the story true?"  Satan will tell 1000 truths to get across one lie.

Edited June 22, 2014 by JLHPROF

[juliann]

     Some more gems, don't have page numbers....

 

He refers to the arctic lost tribe as being "swarthy as Jews."   And Pontius describes listening to Spencer as, "It was like listening to John the Beloved or Moses. . . "

 

       And more cut & pasted snark:

 

Then there is just the fun stuff...like angels dressed in robes "or old fashioned clothing" and walking through walls a lot...in between their ability to shape shift and impersonate your wife and stuff.    Or cows telling him how delighted they are that their hides are covering our couches. Sadly, things like metal or plastic are harder to walk through and don't divulge as much...which he found a relief since he can walk through mortals in the hospital and know their history and every sad thought which is very trying. 

[jwhitlock]

Read the book all the way through, and have the following observations:

 

- NDE's appeal on foundational level to quite a few people. There's a need to know that we live after this life. People get sucked in on an emotional level and get hooked without being critical enough to wonder about inconsistencies in the story.

- One of the Amazon views said that Pontius should have ended the book with the NDE experience. The "vision" portion was so preposterous and poorly written that it became a show stopper for people.

- Pontius's wife runs a blog about the book. They had a meeting where Spencer was present, but the transcript disappeared from the site after only being up there a short time. Spencer is being kept very anonymous and is almost a non-entity in some respects. BTW, I suspect that the moniker "Spencer" might have been chosen by Pontius as a reference to WInston Spencer Churchill, who wrote The Last Lion:Visions of Glory. That's just speculation on my part.

- Greg Smith has an article on FAIR about the book. Kelly Ogden also wrote about it for Meridian magazine. Good reviews.

- An analysis of NDEs that I read talked about those that are verifiable vs. those that are not. Most NDEs are actually quite ordinary with not much to them. Valid NDE accounts are always accompanied by verifiable evidence, such as hospital names, names of doctors, links to medical and records for more information, physical details that can be externally corroborated, etc. Some accounts are actually quite amazing because of the amount of corroborating evidence. VofG provides no such evidence, but hides behind anonymity, lack of details, lack of evidence that can be verified, etc. This is a major red flag about the book; it's the same flag that was raised with Eadie's book.

 

There are quite a number of people in the church who are emotionally vested in the book. This is not a good thing to be basing ones testimony on, yet there are people doing just that and claiming "spiritual maturity" because they believe in the book. Disturbing.

[CA Steve]

This really is kind of disturbing. Maybe there are people like that (although I doubt it), or who have such a gift, but if so they are not out blabbing about it, and blabbing about it in a way so as to draw attention to themselves.

 

There are so many indicators that this book is a fraud, just a load of crap——not the least of which is the dreadful writing. But then why so many people in the church who believe it? I had an email a week ago from someone who asked me ecstatically, "Have you read 'Visions Of Glory'?" When I told her what I thought of it, I was met with silence. So what is it that is drawing people to this book?

Not that I am defending the book, but I do not think the quality of writing is indicative of sincerity on the part of the author. I know that my own inabilities to express myself well with the written word have very little to do with whether or not I am sincere, or at least if I think I am being sincere. Many times, after I have written something, I come back later reread it and it sounds nothing like what I intended to say. Yes maybe it is atrocious writing, but is that a measure of the veracity of his story? In the end I think it is the sheer volume of implausibility that weighs most against the book in my opinion, more than anything else.

 

I wonder, had this book been written in the 1890's when spiritualism was at its height, what impact it might of had?

[juliann]

But part of that atrocious writing is the inconsistencies and contradictions.

[juliann]

This is Mrs. Pontius ' defense of her husband's part in this under the Meridan review.  http://www.ldsmag.com/article/1/13817

 

 

Terri Pontius makes this comment

Concerns about the book Visions of Glory

Monday, 20 January 2014

My name is Terri Pontius, and I am the wife of the late John Pontius. I was present during the many interviews with “Spencer” and I watched as my husband wrote this book, which is a faithful account of several near-death experiences. Knowing he only had months to live, my husband John felt that the Lord wanted him to add the testimony inherent in this book, to the volumes of near-death experiences which have been written in and out of the Church. This is all this book purports to be. It was not written to be sensational, to guide, scare, or mislead anyone. My husband would never do such a thing, and anyone who has read his previous writings can easily discern that. Besides being an accurate account of “Spencer’s experiences as told to John, this book is largely metaphorical. It is up to each person to determine through the Spirit, any relevance that Spencer’s experiences (real or metaphorical) may or may not have with his or her own life. As John says very clearly on page xix: “It is not scripture and should not be considered such. It is not prophetic for anyone but Spencer himself. It is simply an account of how the Lord has prepared one humble man, my friend, Spencer, for his latter-day mission.” Hence the subtitle, “One man’s astonishing account of the last days.” As with all near-death experiences one may pick up, we need to discern through the Spirit that which may be relevant to us. I want to clearly state to Brother Ogden, and to anyone reading this, that if you find this or any other NDE book objectionable, just simply walk away and leave it alone. No one is trying to start a new religion here or make money with a “sensational” book. John passed away just a few weeks after this book was published, and I am deeply sorry that he is not here to defend himself against the unfair attacks on his character, his motivation and purpose for this book. I urge all readers to either find spiritual edification in this book, or simply leave it alone as you would any other book that does not speak truth to your soul. This book has much good fruit on its tree, and many people have felt closer to the Spirit as they have read of this man’s experience. As the scripture says, “But behold, that which is of God inviteth and enticeth to do good continually; wherefore, everything which inviteth and enticeth to do good, and to love God, and to serve him, is inspired of God.” --Terri Pontius

 

 

Wait...what? This is an accurate account of a literal experience that is....metaphorical?   And how can this only be prophetic for Spencer when he is describing the destruction of the world and 50% of all Mormons dying?  So exactly 50% of the MoTabs were still alive to sing.

         That is how literal he is.

 

          Anyway, the comment section does have some explanations of what some people find compelling.

[Nate]

Elder McConkie is quoted (or perhaps misquoted) as saying, "God doesn't talk to blabbermouths."  This seems to be true of the most spiritually mature people I know.  They don't talk about their deepest, most intimate experiences with God.  They testify with authority of the reality of the Savior, but they don't brag about visions, healings, or other miracles that might have brought them to this knowledge.

 

I haven't read the book that is the topic of this thread, but I won't.  Whether the experiences in the book are completely factual or wildly sensationalized, to share them is inappropriate.  An easy way to get God to stop talking to you is to share personal revelation for your life as if it applies to everyone else.

[bdouglas]

Not that I am defending the book, but I do not think the quality of writing is indicative of sincerity on the part of the author. I know that my own inabilities to express myself well with the written word have very little to do with whether or not I am sincere, or at least if I think I am being sincere. Many times, after I have written something, I come back later reread it and it sounds nothing like what I intended to say. Yes maybe it is atrocious writing, but is that a measure of the veracity of his story? In the end I think it is the sheer volume of implausibility that weighs most against the book in my opinion, more than anything else.

 

I wonder, had this book been written in the 1890's when spiritualism was at its height, what impact it might of had?

 

I agree with you that quality of writing is not an indicator of sincerity. I think both Pontius and Spencer are sincere. I don't see either of them as being fraudsters who are perpetrating a hoax. I think they are both very sincere. But one can be entirely sincere and still deluded.

 

One of my children died a while back, and I got a copy of "Life Everlasting" by Duane Crowther, which is a collection of NDEs by LDS people, most of them from the 1800s. Many of these NDEs might be considered "poorly written". For example, a farmer who never had any formal schooling is relating a NDE he had when he fell into the hay bailer and "died". But still I am never left doubting his veracity, rather the opposite. His reticence, his struggling for words––these only add to the veracity of his account. Why is that? I'm not sure. But one thing I am sure about is that where Spencer is––

 

Loopy, florid, turgid, sensationalistic, ridiculous, preposterous––

 

These old farmers, or the boy who drowned in the pond on the farm and then was resuscitated and then tells about what he saw, and all of the others, are never like that.

Edited June 22, 2014 by bdouglas

[mfbukowski]

 

Based on Julie's description I'm really curious to see how folks make this "work" for them within a Church context.  

 

First time I've heard about this particular book ... and here I was assuming it was like a lot of what Covenant or other "popular" Mormon presses have put out through the years.

A lot of very good and kind and otherwise intelligent people who are great at raising families have absolutely no critical thinking skills whatsoever because they have been frightened by the "philosophies of men" as a boogey-man. I have always found that rather disturbing. This is my first exposure to it as well. Scary stuff.

[cinepro]

I don't know what's more disturbing: the book itself, or what it says about the LDS who love it if what is being said in this thread is true.

[Tiki]

NDEs

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pLQiMTCd35Y

[K-2]

Has anyone read Greg Smith's review of Visions of Glory on the FairMormon blog? I thought he did a great job. He says many of the things the book describes regarding the hospital and doctors did not make sense at all. A guy in my ward got off on a tangent, praising the book, during an elder's quorum lesson in my ward. I later got a chance to read a borrowed copy that a friend's parents had given to them to read. I noticed a number of doctrinal errors, subtle ones, and also that the author seems to want his book to match up with various other visions that people in the past have had, for corroboration. I don't think the guy is sincere at all. There's no way that is a truthful account of an actual vision of the future. I guess that makes me a goat. LOL!

[Tacenda]

Has anyone read Greg Smith's review of Visions of Glory on the FairMormon blog? I thought he did a great job. He says many of the things the book describes regarding the hospital and doctors did not make sense at all. A guy in my ward got off on a tangent, praising the book, during an elder's quorum lesson in my ward. I later got a chance to read a borrowed copy that a friend's parents had given to them to read. I noticed a number of doctrinal errors, subtle ones, and also that the author seems to want his book to match up with various other visions that people in the past have had, for corroboration. I don't think the guy is sincere at all. There's no way that is a truthful account of an actual vision of the future. I guess that makes me a goat. LOL!

Maybe he's a wolf in sheeps clothing.

[manofthecloth]

Boo!  Here I am.  When I told my thoughtful cousin (euphemism for 'family member') about the book being a separator, I was serious. The book does separate people. It makes them either happy to learn about what could be coming soon or very dismissive of the main character. Criticism focuses primarily on Spencer personally without attacking the message very often. I found no contradiction to scripture in the book and I mused constantly whether or not it could be true. I for one am happy to think of the future as a fulfillment of those visions in the book, and I confirm it was a page turner. It was indeed (as he said) like candy because I couldn't stop reading it. So, naturally I read it again and then I listened to it again (a year later) as an audio book.  Did I tell you I liked the book?  Note: Parley P. Pratt was similarly smitten with the Book of books wasn't he?  Did that make him crazy and fanatical?

 

My well-bred cousin is a lot of things, but he isn't unaware of those who need mercy because he extends it to me constantly. Spencer is the kind of man who really is a virgin when it comes to personal criticism from people about the book. Spencer is far far from a plagiarizer as some of you have postulated. Spencer is also not a proud man or a deliberate deceiver. Unlike this forum, Amazon book reviews rate it at 4-5 stars with 782 votes vs 143 votes (with only 3 or fewer stars). This is pretty good and many thousands have been sold.

 

The Isaiah Institute recently sent out an email blast to all their list regarding a book review that would be delivered by a prominent author on something like "Why Spencer's Vision Confirms Isaiah's End Time Prophecy." When I got to the paid admission venue, it was standing room only with 500 seats filled and even more folks huddled around the edges of the assembly room. The reviewer talked and talked for 3 hours until he kicked himself out and off the stage...yet no one seemed to leave before it ended.

 

So what do you make of that? Is the book a legit separator or a devil-inspired fraud?

 

Loved the book.  Love you guys.  Bye.

[Calm]

Have you spoken with "Spencer" or are you extrapolating all that about his personality from the book?

Edited June 29, 2014 by calmoriah

[manofthecloth]

Have you spoken with "Spencer" or are you extrapolating all that about his personality from the book?

Neither one. I know him well enough through a favorite father figure friend (a 4F to be sure) of mine. I ask questions about Spencer and get the answers I am passing along to you. My friend has spent a lot of time with Spencer since the publication of the book and it's amazing how much controversy it, Spencer and the author have spawned. It is likely there will be an avalanche of such "revelations" as the years progress toward the opening of the 7th Dispensation and I can't wait to receive them. 

[The Nehor]

Boo!  Here I am.  When I told my thoughtful cousin (euphemism for 'family member') about the book being a separator, I was serious. The book does separate people. It makes them either happy to learn about what could be coming soon or very dismissive of the main character. Criticism focuses primarily on Spencer personally without attacking the message very often. I found no contradiction to scripture in the book and I mused constantly whether or not it could be true. I for one am happy to think of the future as a fulfillment of those visions in the book, and I confirm it was a page turner. It was indeed (as he said) like candy because I couldn't stop reading it. So, naturally I read it again and then I listened to it again (a year later) as an audio book.  Did I tell you I liked the book?  Note: Parley P. Pratt was similarly smitten with the Book of books wasn't he?  Did that make him crazy and fanatical?

 

My well-bred cousin is a lot of things, but he isn't unaware of those who need mercy because he extends it to me constantly. Spencer is the kind of man who really is a virgin when it comes to personal criticism from people about the book. Spencer is far far from a plagiarizer as some of you have postulated. Spencer is also not a proud man or a deliberate deceiver. Unlike this forum, Amazon book reviews rate it at 4-5 stars with 782 votes vs 143 votes (with only 3 or fewer stars). This is pretty good and many thousands have been sold.

 

The Isaiah Institute recently sent out an email blast to all their list regarding a book review that would be delivered by a prominent author on something like "Why Spencer's Vision Confirms Isaiah's End Time Prophecy." When I got to the paid admission venue, it was standing room only with 500 seats filled and even more folks huddled around the edges of the assembly room. The reviewer talked and talked for 3 hours until he kicked himself out and off the stage...yet no one seemed to leave before it ended.

 

So what do you make of that? Is the book a legit separator or a devil-inspired fraud?

 

Loved the book.  Love you guys.  Bye.

 

It is just nonsense.

 

Something making people feel good is a horrible indicator of truth. Sentimental pablum always does. That does not make it true. Sales are also a horrible indicator of truth. If it were then the Twilight series would be the correct method of finding an eternal spouse.

 

I do think Spencer is a deceiver but he seems to be a well-meaning one. That doesn't help much. He is profiting off his fabrications. He probably sees himself as an innocent purveying "help" but since it is a pack of lies I don't see him as innocent or helpful. He probably did not expect to receive criticism. Perhaps he was raised and lives in an environment where pseudospiritual pablum is lauded and is now surprised that some people are disgusted by it (I know I am).

 

Charity is keeping me from making exact estimations of the average IQ of those attending that PAID seminar but I am guessing double digits.

[Calm]

Neither one. I know him well enough through a favorite father figure friend (a 4F to be sure) of mine. I ask questions about Spencer and get the answers I am passing along to you. My friend has spent a lot of time with Spencer since the publication of the book and it's amazing how much controversy it, Spencer and the author have spawned. It is likely there will be an avalanche of such "revelations" as the years progress toward the opening of the 7th Dispensation and I can't wait to receive them. 

So you know who "Spencer" really is?  (not that I asking for his identity)  How about asking him the question why he doesn't go public with who he is and is instead using an alias so that his story can be checked for accuracy on his claims of what happened to him (having doctor friends who describe his descriptions as just plain silly…among other things)?

[jwhitlock]

Neither one. I know him well enough through a favorite father figure friend (a 4F to be sure) of mine. I ask questions about Spencer and get the answers I am passing along to you. My friend has spent a lot of time with Spencer since the publication of the book and it's amazing how much controversy it, Spencer and the author have spawned. It is likely there will be an avalanche of such "revelations" as the years progress toward the opening of the 7th Dispensation and I can't wait to receive them. 

 

Have you read Greg Smith's review of the book at FairMormon or Kelly Ogden's review at Meridian Magazine?

[jwhitlock]

So you know who "Spencer" really is?  (not that I asking for his identity)  How about asking him the question why he doesn't go public with who he is and is instead using an alias so that his story can be checked for accuracy on his claims of what happened to him (having doctor friends who describe his descriptions as just plain silly…among other things)?

 

I agree. If Spencer's story is valid, then there should be nothing to hide. As long as he continues to demand anonymity without providing evidence, then people are more than justified in being skeptical.

 

If you're going to publish something like this in contradiction to the scriptures that tell us not to broadcast personal revelations, then you need to provide some pretty convincing evidence to justify doing so. So far we have nothing.

[manofthecloth]

Hey!  Getting flamed by the likes a "theNehor" isn't so bad. He said he is charitable about my double digit IQ so I guess it's OK. I wonder if he knows happiness is a moral obligation for everyone.

[Garden Girl]

The excerpts I've read... tilt my vote to "Nonsense!"

 

GG