"visions Of Glory" - Nonsense? Or Legit?

[Calm]

Could there be the possibility this "Spencer" is Christopher Nemelka, the guy that revealed the lost pages of the BoM?

It is not Nelmelka or any other well known figure.

[manofthecloth]

It is not Nelmelka or any other well known figure.

Nemelka is a relative of my cousin bDouglas. He might be able to shed light on it.

[manofthecloth]

I am going to keep kicking sand in his face. He is not some poor victim. He is a liar and vague talk about metaphors does not diminish this. Liars are almost always featured prominently in the list of those going to hell or as we used to say in my mission:

 

"Wo unto the liar for he shall be THRUST, not peacefully prodded, not passively persuaded, not gently led, but THRUST down to hell."

 

Lying about the gospel aggravates the offense. He is doing spiritual HARM! Being well-meaning does not make that okay.

 

 

But like the literary production in the Nibley anecdote, it cannot withstand such testing and appraisal without falling to pieces. And to label one who does test it and finds it wanting and who therefore offers legitimate criticism a "false accuser" is to misunderstand the intent of Timothy's words.

 

1) We're still waiting patiently for the thoughtful non-overwrought appraisal of the book. You haven't read it remember. 

 

2) We're likewise scratching our heads wondering where the legitimate criticism was which caused me to remember the "false accuser" passage. Remember also the sharp accuser hasn't read it either.

 

There is a difference between run of the mill critics (i.e. Dr Kelly Ogden et al) of VOG and hyperventilating demagogues.  Besides, I admitted Mr Nehor isn't a literal manifestation of 2nd Timothy. There's no need to stir things up any more if you don't mind . 

 

Note: This post of yours looks like a deliberately fabricated attempt to boost your thread's viewership.  -- All is well in Zion etc. Over and out.

[Calm]

Nemelka is a relative of my cousin bDouglas. He might be able to shed light on it.

It is not Nemelka.

[bdouglas]

Nemelka is a relative of my cousin bDouglas. He might be able to shed light on it.

 

Well this is news to me, manofthecloth, I mean that C. Nemelka is a relative. But if he is my relative, he is yours also, since we are cousins. So really he is not a relative, is he, manofthecloth?

 

(I can see, though, why Tacenda would think that maybe Spencer and Nemelka are the same person.)

Edited June 30, 2014 by bdouglas

[bdouglas]

 

manofthecloth:

We're still waiting patiently for the thoughtful non-overwrought appraisal of the book. You haven't read it remember. 

 

I have personally read enough of it to form an appraisal, and I have also read it second-hand (i.e., quotes from the book) through posters on this thread and also in Amazon reader reviews.

[The Nehor]

To clarify, Spencer is a friend of a friend. No not worried at all, the book has done well. I have dropped by Cedar Fort Publishing a time or two and they seem happy about it still. I just simply love latter-day prophecies which draws me to this book. No, it isn't scripture; please don't start on the soapbox. It's more like a novel of what could happen. NDEs are like that.

 

You stopped by the publishing house to see how the book was doing? Yeah....that niggling theory in the back of my mind since you joined this thread that you are the writer or are more intimately involved in this book just started niggling more.

 

By the way...when do you think Messiah will come?

 

In the next 200-500 years but that is just a guess based on prophecy and my own read on reality. I could be wrong.

[bdouglas]

[i think the Messiah will come in ] the next 200-500 years but that is just a guess based on prophecy and my own read on reality. I could be wrong.

 

This is something that marks believers in "Visions", a firm belief, even a certain knowledge (or it seems that way, given the way they talk about it) that the second coming is here, or that we will see it in Spencer's lifetime. It is not 200-500 years down the road, it is not even 30 years down the road, it is here, now, it is upon us. After all, Spencer has boxed himself in with prophecies that are to be fulfilled in his lifetime——and he is a fairly old guy right now. As has been noted earlier in this thread, some "Visions" readers have said, "Well, it may be the book is only metaphorical." But only the cautious ones say this, maybe as a way of hedging the bets, just in case the prophecies don't come about. But the book is not metaphorical in any way.

 

P.S. - I don't think manofthecloth is "Spencer", the author of "Visions". I'm pretty sure of this. I'd know if he was.

Edited June 30, 2014 by bdouglas

[manofthecloth]

Well this is news to me, manofthecloth, I mean that C. Nemelka is a relative. But if he is my relative, he is yours also, since we are cousins. So really he is not a relative, is he, manofthecloth?

 

(I can see, though, why Tacenda would think that maybe Spencer and Nemelka are the same person.)

No...we have different mothers remember. Yours comes from Nemelka's vaunted family.  Mine comes from humble farmers. It's really quite simple. Nemelka and Spencer the same person? Preposterous. Spencer has 3 advanced degrees which are real. How many does your cousin Nemelka have?

[manofthecloth]

You stopped by the publishing house to see how the book was doing? Yeah....that niggling theory in the back of my mind since you joined this thread that you are the writer or are more intimately involved in this book just started niggling more.

 

 

In the next 200-500 years but that is just a guess based on prophecy and my own read on reality. I could be wrong.

1) I am a weird duck, but not Spencer and not the author and I am not intimately involved. My interest was in broadcasting an interview of Spencer, but I was denied. I tried another time more recently and was rebuffed again. Then I learned a friend of mine knew him which led to me knowing more about him than most folks ought to, but it's still all second hand.

 

2) I am impressed you would give a date range Second Coming. Most (89.5%) will say firstly 'No man knows.' I then say, 'yeah, yeah but we are asked to watch for the signs lest our house is broken up when the thief comes.' Then they'll answer. 4 years ago the answers mirrored you. Now a full 1/3 will say before 2030. Try the poll in your High Priest group some day. Yes you and cousin bDouglas must be soul-mates because that's about what he says. He doesn't want his emotional cousin to go live in a double-wide trailer at the foot of the Cardston Temple because it's time for old men to take care of their own garden etc. He says The Second Coming will take care of itself. This soul-mate thing probably makes you a cousin of Nemelka. You should look into that too.

 

Note: Sharpness combined with echo chamber ideology on the MDDB earns The Nehor and my cousin bDouglas an almost identical 34% adulation rate. Mine is 1/10th which means no one likes me (or whatever). You guys must be getting tired of sparring with manofthecloth so could you get me some help please 

[Calm]

What are those degrees? I don't recall seeing them specified, but if you know they are real then you must know what they are.

[The Nehor]

Spencer has 3 advanced degrees which are real.

 

Am I the only one who inherently distrusts people who have to specify that things are real?

[manofthecloth]

This is something that marks believers in "Visions", a firm belief, even a certain knowledge (or it seems that way, given the way they talk about it) that the second coming is here, or that we will see it in Spencer's lifetime. It is not 200-500 years down the road, it is not even 30 years down the road, it is here, now, it is upon us. After all, Spencer has boxed himself in with prophecies that are to be fulfilled in his lifetime——and he is a fairly old guy right now. As has been noted earlier in this thread, some "Visions" readers have said, "Well, it may be the book is only metaphorical." But only the cautious ones say this, maybe as a way of hedging the bets, just in case the prophecies don't come about. But the book is not metaphorical in any way.

 

P.S. - I don't think manofthecloth is "Spencer", the author of "Visions". I'm pretty sure of this. I'd know if he was.

Look at this! bDouglas gets a 1 up for this? Where are my laurels I ask. bDouglas has enough 1-ups already. I am not Spencer, but I would have made a great Spencer. Another thing you have forgotten (because you didn't read the book) is the heavy emphasis on translated beings. Maybe that's what will preserve him if the 2nd Coming is in 200 years, but it's not. pre-2030 for sure.

[Tacenda]

It is not Nemelka.

How are you so sure about this Cal? It seems that your being that sure, means you might have an inside track or something.

[manofthecloth]

Am I the only one who inherently distrusts people who have to specify that things are real?

And I am known for teasing german shepherds because it's (kinda) fun...except when they catch me.  Oh no! Scott Lloyd is watching this thread!  Dread! I've heard about him. He shreds even The Nehor. Everybody take cover. INCOMING!

[Calm]

Spencer is a therapist.

Plus Nemelka claims to be the reincarnated Hyrum Smith. I may have my doubts about Pontius wanting to dramatize life in order to make it more interesting and more faith promoting, but I don't think he'd go so far as to ignore Nemelka's past and knowingly completely fabricate a life history.

Edited July 1, 2014 by calmoriah

[bdouglas]

No...we have different mothers remember. Yours comes from Nemelka's vaunted family.  Mine comes from humble farmers. It's really quite simple. Nemelka and Spencer the same person? Preposterous. Spencer has 3 advanced degrees which are real. How many does your cousin Nemelka have?

 

Oh. You mean that since I am a descendant of Hyrum Smith, Nemelka and I are related because Nemelka claims to be Hyrum Smith in a new probation (i.e., he claims to be the reincarnated Hyrum)? Well, of course I don't believe that. I don't believe Nemelka is Hyrum Smith in a new probation, in fact I don't believe in multiple probations at all.

[bdouglas]

You know, manofthecloth, the older I get and the wiser I get (at least I hope I am becoming wiser) the more I really believe that we are best doing what we have been counseled to do all along, and that is "follow the brethren", "follow the prophets". You knew my dad, and you knew that this was his mantra: "Follow the brethren." You brought up Nemelka, who claims to have translated the sealed portion of the plates and also to be the reincarnated Hyrum Smith. And now we have Spencer, who has beheld terrible visitations——earthquakes, natural disasters——all along the Wasatch Front in the very near future, so much so that half of the Quorum of Twelve die and half of the MoTabs; we have Denver Snuffer with his schtick; we have Dewey (can't remember his first name) who receives revelations like Joseph Smith did regarding multiple probations and the last days; and only recently Jim Harmston died, who claimed to have been Joseph Smith in a new probation (most of these people, it seems, believe in the LDS folk doctrine of multiple probations).

 

How is one to sort all of this? I mean how is an ordinary church member to sort all of this? I have said to you before that one of the marks of the Lord's people or his church is "unity". This doesn't mean we all agree, because we don't. But it means we set aside our differences and move forward as one body. This is how we get things done. But the problem with Spencer, Denver S., Nemelka et al is they chip away at that unity, they cause confusion among the flock.

 

This really is, I think, my bottom line:

 

The problem with Spencer, Denver S., Nemelka et al is they chip away at that unity, they cause confusion among the flock.

Edited July 1, 2014 by bdouglas

[BookofMormonLuvr]

A few observations:

 

I don't believe that the apostle (again, no name, just an anonymous reference) told him that the time would come for him to share it in the book. Review that section again; I think the way he phrased it (according to "Spencer") is that it was to be not shared unless directed otherwise.

 

It's virtually always the best course to withhold things that are personal and sacred from the public.

 

The difference between "Spencer" and all of the examples given from the scriptures is that those individuals were leaders of the church with a specific mandate to testify publicly as directed by the Spirit. Individual members of the church are not under that mandate, and are not authorized to speak for the church. The experience of Hiram Page in the Doctrine and Covenants is worth reviewing in this context, and is probably more applicable.

 

There's a difference between sharing things with individuals close to you as directed by the Spirit, and sharing claimed revelations publicly by writing a book. Again, if someone is going to go public, there needs to be a compelling reason to do it. Otherwise they risk setting themselves up as a light to the church, and members start to look to them instead of the prophets. We now have members "bearing testimony" of "Spencer" and VoG in almost the same category as scripture. That should be troubling in and of itself.

 

One of the reasons the church was restored was to bring order and unity to the Saints in preparing for the Second Coming. The scriptures tell us that the leaders of the church, called as prophets for the whole church, are to be the ones to give us direction in that area. Anything else that people start to dwell on tends to replace the authorized channel that the Lord has set up. "Since the brethren aren't telling us about any visions, we'll have to look for someone else to provide them for us." That's not a good path to take.

 

The key here is public vs. personal. I don't have any problem with individuals sharing sacred experiences in appropriate,private settings with others close to them as directed by the Spirit. I am troubled by someone who would claim such experiences and share them publicly. If the Lord feels it necessary to share such things with the body of the church, they will come through the authorized channels from the prophet at the head of the church. Otherwise, the scriptures only promise that we can receive our own revelations on that level if we purify ourselves before God. I find no support for such grass roots wave of public revelation taking place in the church in competition with our leaders.

I am sure that is what the elders of the church told the inhabitants of Jerusalem when Lehi started raising a ruckus. Rather then put all our trust in a man or men- how about we get close to the Spirit so He can tell us when we are being told truth or pablum?

[BookofMormonLuvr]

About the 2-digit IQ, or a 2-digit IQ being required to believe the book....

 

I can say for a fact that manofthecloth has more than a 2-digit IQ, in fact he is smarter than I am. I think what it does require, for someone to believe the book, is a lack of common sense. I have noticed this lack of common sense in fundamentalist LDS and also conspiracy theorists. These kind of people can be smart in terms of IQ, but yet there appears to be something else lacking, and this "something else" I label "common sense".

As in "polygamists"??

Is so... how many, exactly, are you acquainted with?

[The Nehor]

As in "polygamists"??

Is so... how many, exactly, are you acquainted with?

I only know a few. My two wives and my three concubines and that is pretty much it. Edited July 1, 2014 by The Nehor

[strappinglad]

If MDDB is still in existence in 2030 , I would like to reconvene this group of posters to review the prophecies in VoG. Yes , I know it would not be fair until 11:59 pm Dec. 31 , 2030 , but still I feel it important to establish the veracity of these prognostications. Can I get a " FO SHO BRO " ?

[bdouglas]

As in "polygamists"??

Is so... how many, exactly, are you acquainted with?

 

Quite a few. I have used them to do work for me (usually construction) for many years now. I know many of them.

Edited July 1, 2014 by bdouglas

[bdouglas]

If MDDB is still in existence in 2030 , I would like to reconvene this group of posters to review the prophecies in VoG. Yes , I know it would not be fair until 11:59 pm Dec. 31 , 2030 , but still I feel it important to establish the veracity of these prognostications. Can I get a " FO SHO BRO " ?

 

I should be around then. I'll look for your OP. I'll bring manofthecloth with me and we'll log on together.

[juliann]

 

 

By the way...when do you think Messiah will come?

Spencer said he guessed it would be in about 30 years, you know that.  He says that to excuse the unbelievable claim that in all of his vision years he was unable to ever track down a calendar. He describes a future SLC street where he is looking for a newspaper or anything that would give him a date and just couldn't find anything at all. So he gives us "30 years."

 

How are you so sure about this Cal? It seems that your being that sure, means you might have an inside track or something.

 

It is the internet age, there are a couple of forums that have figured it out. But those with the direct knowledge will have to the ones to spill the beans, and eventually someone will.

 

Look at this! bDouglas gets a 1 up for this? Where are my laurels I ask. bDouglas has enough 1-ups already. I am not Spencer, but I would have made a great Spencer. Another thing you have forgotten (because you didn't read the book) is the heavy emphasis on translated beings. Maybe that's what will preserve him if the 2nd Coming is in 200 years, but it's not. pre-2030 for sure.

 

The heavy emphasis was on "Spencer" himself.  A huge portion of the book was a recitation of his sufferings over physical ailments, which for some unexplained reason, was his preparation for being hugged by Jesus,  translated, and time traveling through his personal "portal."    Which is why his age today matters so much when he is saying he will be walking up to Canada and down to Missouri.   I'm guessing he would be at least 90 when disasters begin.