"visions Of Glory" - Nonsense? Or Legit?

[Scott Lloyd]

Continuing the list of doctrinal problems in the book (post #3):

 

o There is an account of an assignment to gather a large group of the lost 10 tribes of Israel who have been living in a huge cavern for thousands of years under the Arctic polar icecap (does anybody really take this stuff seriously?). The author speaks of going north of Canada and Alaska into the Arctic sea and finding rocky mountain peaks. As it happens, there are no mountains or land under the polar ice that far north, just frozen water as in Antarctica.  But the most significant problem here is the description of the 10 tribes returning en masse before the Second Coming of Christ. The scriptures clearly state that their return will not occur until after His coming (see the sequence in D&C 133:18-33 and Isaiah 35:10). The scriptures also state that the 10 tribes have been scattered upon all the face of the earth and will have to be gathered from the four corners of the earth and brought to a knowledge  of the gospel (see 1 Nephi 10:12; 22:3-5; 3 Nephi 20:12-13; Isaiah 11:12; 3 Nephi 22:24-29). They will not come from under the polar ice cap.

 

o The book tells of angels who had baptized and ordained some of the lost tribes. This is contrary to doctrine. Angels do not perform ordinances. Not even the three Nephites are so authorized. (See Acts 10:1-6; JS-H 1:70.)

 

More to come.

[Scott Lloyd]

My concern about that book was because two people have born testimony of it in F&T meeting.   Only then did I realize I would have to read it.  And here is the real concern....which I was unaware of until I did read it. One of our more vocal members routinely uses his theology in classes.  I just considered this person to be a little wacky, but she is repeating things from this book. She attributed the building of smaller temples as a way to accommodate Christ visiting earth...because only the temples had "portals"....so now he can visit in lots of places. His guardian angel theology is particularly toxic when used to assure others that if they are righteous enough, their dead parents can visit with them. 

 

So the concern is that VoG supporters aren't keeping it on the shelf.  And everyone should be familiar enough with what Spencer is promoting to recognize it when it shows up in classes that are supposed to be based on gospel principles. 

That is the danger with any false doctrine, that it will deceive the saints as it encroaches into authorized venues such as Church meetings and classes, which ought to be havens of doctrinal purity.

[Scott Lloyd]

Continuing the list of doctrinal problems in the book (post #4):

 

o The book indicates the 144,000 referred to in Revelation 7 include both men and women, high priests and high priestesses. This contradicts what was revealed to Joseph Smith in D&C 77:11.

 

o The book describes the Savior at His Second Coming as being “clothed in spotless white with a  red sash around His waist." This contradicts D&C 133:48-51; see also Revelation 19:13; Isaiah 63:2-4.

 

That's all I'll offer for now.

 

I see that others on this thread have recommended the article written by Greg Smith on this topic. I endorse that recommendation.

Edited July 1, 2014 by Scott Lloyd

[manofthecloth]

We should have her and Avraham Gileadi battle it out- apparently, he is a proponent of the book. I would buy the PPV.

 

There are too many doctrinal problems with the book to list in one post. I'll give a sample as I get time. (I'm indebted to a knowledgeable friend for pointing these out; the following list thus reflects his analysis.)

 

So the concern is that VoG supporters aren't keeping it on the shelf.  And everyone should be familiar enough with what Spencer is promoting to recognize it when it shows up in classes that are supposed to be based on gospel principles. 

 

Honestly Juliann and Scott Lloyd have had the best responses so far for me to consider and I will think about it. At least now we are getting into some substance. My news reporter instinct has kicked in to broaden the debate because the book gave me positive reinforcement to follow and assist my Church right up to the last day of this Telestial phase of the earth. I emphatically do not agree with most of your concerns. I just don't see why you think what you do, but I'll always consider thoughtful challenges. I know also I speak for a majority of the readers of that book when I say it was a positive reinforcement. Of my own family, who have now read it and who were all to a person prejudiced against the book when I told them about it, 3 changed their minds and 2 did not. It is a polarizing book for sure.

 

Background: I asked my friend (who is a friend of Spencer) to ask Dr. Gileadi about all this we are discussing. Apparently news of this place (or others like it at least) had already reached his ears. He already had a statement ready.

 

BREAKING NEWS EXCLUSIVELY FOR THE MDDB FORUM 

 

"In response to your question about my opinion on “Visions of Glory” and the negative responses it is getting on a blog site, some people ask me whether what is in my books on Isaiah was influenced by Spencer’s account. The answer is emphatically No. The thousands of people who have been reading my literary analyses of Isaiah since the 1980s when Deseret Book published two of my books, then through the 1990s and 2000s when my major works came out, and more recently in the 2010s when all seven of my publications on Isaiah are available, know that much of Spencer’s scenario is in the Book of Isaiah when you apply the tools of literary analysis that unlock its end-time message. If the naysayers of Spencer’s visions would keep Jesus’ commandment to “search the words of Isaiah,” they might not now be condemning themselves by opposing the truth that is in the scriptures. To me and others who have read my books over the years, Spencer’s account is a second witness of Isaiah’s end-time prophecy and covenant theology. It’s no surprise to me that this humble man too is suffering persecution." -- Avraham Gileadi

 

“Dr. Gileadi’s work will render obsolete almost all the speculations of Isaiah scholars over the last one hundred years, enabling scholarship to proceed along an entirely new line, opening new avenues of approach for others to follow”—Professor Roland K. Harrison, Wycliffe College, Toronto, Canada.

 

“Dr. Gileadi is the only LDS scholar I know of who is thoroughly competent to teach the words of Isaiah”—Professor Hugh Nibley, Brigham Young University, Provo, Utah. (1. 6. 2003)

Edited July 1, 2014 by manofthecloth

[Calm]

Much more likely Spencer was influenced by Gileadi, IMO.

[manofthecloth]

Much more likely Spencer was influenced by Gileadi, IMO.

There is actually an answer to that one. Dr Gileadi and Spencer met after the book was published, by about 1 year I have heard him to say. Gileadi has mentioned Spencer's innocence in almost all things related to discussions like this one. That he doesn't really follow any kind of controversy etc. Gileadi and Spencer are friends (good friends I hear) because Spencer was delighted to be validated by Isaiah and Gileadi was delighted to have another witness of what he was saying for many years.

[bdouglas]

Among strange doctrines found throughout the book, Spencer indicates that angels had come dressed in nurse uniforms posing as mortals to attend his birth.

 

When I read this in Scott Lloyd's post I just burst out laughing. Spencer's giant ego is truly amazing——but yet he "so humble", or so his proponents describe him. Christ had the three magi pay homage to him at his birth, and Spencer had angels dressed as nurses to attend his. There are several "unintentional howlers" in the book, and this has got to be one of the best.

 

There are bits all through the book like this, attesting to Spencer's special, elite status; in fact you could read the book as simply one long paen to Spencer's special status. And I would be the first to grant such special status to him if he had anything to show for it, but he doesn't.

Edited July 1, 2014 by bdouglas

[bdouglas]

ManOfTheCloth—

 

Joseph Smith said, "I saw God and Christ, and they spoke to me." And then seven years later he produced the BOM and four years later the Book Of Moses, and these two works are unlike anything the world has ever seen outside the Bible. They are truly marvelous works and they possess a high degree of excellence and consistency.

 

Nemelka says, "I have translated the sealed portion of the BOM." But when we read this "translation" we can't help but think to ourselves that it is nothing more than an amateurish parody of the BOM.

 

Spencer says, "I saw a vision and behold, my office is next to Christ's and I rescue the Ten Tribes who are living under the polar ice cap and angels dressed as nurses attended my birth," etc., etc. But like Nemelka, what does he have to show us? A book which resembles a pastiche of the last few dozen NDE books published in the last 30-40 years——only Spencer's book is more poorly written than any of these other NDE books. But it is not poor writing I'm speaking of (although it is also true that the message can be no better than the vehicle which carries it). You literally cannot read even one page of the book without encountering some absurdity, and on some pages there are multiple absurdities.

 

Do you know the aphorism, "The proof is in the pudding"? Well, Spencer's pudding is not very good (and neither is Nemelka's). This not only makes his book hard to believe, it makes the honors he claims for himself in the book to be ridiculous; he comes across as a ridiculous, almost comical figure. This is why he lends himself so easily to spoof and satire.

Edited July 1, 2014 by bdouglas

[juliann]

 

o Among strange doctrines found throughout the book, Spencer indicates that angels had come dressed in nurse uniforms posing as mortals to attend his birth. This does not conform to the ministering of angels as defined in scripture (see Moroni 7:31).

 

 

The reader can judge how scriptural it is...or representative of hospital practice.  He has just finished telling women that their baby's survival is at risk if there are "dark emotions" during pregnancy, which he repeats later. Swarthy Jews, and dark skinned Tahitians representing hell are distasteful.  But blaming women for their baby's death is reprehensible.

 

    I watched my mother in labor and was amazed to see many angels attending my birth. Two of the nurses in the delivery room were not mortals but were angels. They were either translated persons or resurrected, because they had bodies. They acted like the other nurses, showing emotion and taking orders. But they were only there to help this woman and her child who was dying at birth.

 

 

 

He claims that while doing surgery on his mom, a nurse does one check for a heart beat on him, and then wraps him in newspaper and put him in a sink!  I find it hard to believe that there was a supply of newspapers in a surgical room or that a nurse is concerned about dirty towels.

 

    As I was watching my own birth, I saw that my little stillborn body was indeed black and dark blue. I watched the nurse check for a heartbeat with a stethoscope. When there was nothing, she wrapped me in newspaper because I was covered with blood and dark fluids. I even smelled bad, and she didn't want to soil hospital towels. She sadly placed me in the sink and returned to the operation.

 

The angel nurses then save him.  Not only does no one notice two complete strangers in an operating room, they don't notice when two nurses walk off the surgical team and go to a dead baby in the sink.

 

   I saw that little body in the sink, my own body, gasp for breath, struggling to live. The nurse pulled the newspaper a little farther open and turned to the doctor. Her face was serene, but her voice was one of feigned surprised. She cried, Doctor! I think this baby is still alive! He has pinked up!

 

 

 The doctor has not even seen the baby but is going to announce time of death.  Note also that this hospital is understaffed.  Yet it isn't noticed when two strange nurses appear out of nowhere.

 

He glanced at the clock on the wall, preparing to announce the time of death of the infant. When he looked in, he ordered the same nurses who had revived me to get me out of that sink and warm me up. They turned and whisked me away to the understaffed and poorly functioning nursery. I was immediately transferred to Primary Childrens Hospital where I struggled to stay alive for weeks. I was placed in an old iron lung until I started breathing on my own.

 

 

Spencer, according to the book, would have been born in 1950. Primary Children's Hospital was in a large house until 1952. http://intermountainhealthcare.org/hospitals/primarychildrens/about/history/Pages/home.aspx  It was a place to convalesce and did not open up acute care until 1961.  The polio epidemic was in full swing at his birth so an "old" iron lung doesn't ring true, especially because it would have to be an iron lung designed for an infant.  Dee Hospital was just getting them in.  "With the polio epidemic of 1951 taking lives and crippling others, Mr. Knapp added a polio ward especially equipped with an iron lung and recruited nurses willing to work in this area." http://intermountainhealthcare.org/hospitals/mckaydee/about/history/Pages/change.aspx

 

This is only one example of the questionable information throughout the book.

[Stone holm]

Not sure that the classes of the Church were originally designed to be "havens of doctrinal purity" -- that sounds more like a fundamentalist or Puritan concept.  The Church in its early years encouraged exploration of concepts -- but that was before Priesthood Correlation.

[juliann]

Honestly Juliann and Scott Lloyd have had the best responses so far for me to consider and I will think about it. At least now we are getting into some substance. My news reporter instinct has kicked in to broaden the debate because the book gave me positive reinforcement to follow and assist my Church right up to the last day of this Telestial phase of the earth. I

 

BREAKING NEWS EXCLUSIVELY FOR THE MDDB FORUM 

 

 

My breaking news is that I have and have read two of Gileadi's books. I liked them.  But you see...no one questions the Biblical rendition of end times, we question Spencer's unrelated filler that has nothing to do with that. 

 

I would be very disappointed to see Gileadi defending angel nurses infiltrating an operating room and saying things like "he pinked up!" to alert the doctor Spencer isn't dead.  Or Spencer's odd comment that he knew what a hospital warning (I'm thinking it was the code blue but I'm not going to look for it)  meant because he had responded to so many of them himself.   He is a therapist!  He counsels people!  Therapists don't run into hospital rooms when there is a life threatening emergency requiring a medical team!

 

This book is filled with absurdities like that. What does that have to do with end times?  What does a magic truck that provides endless clean drinking water and running on used french fry oil have to do with end times?  What does his endless rendition of every ailment he suffers have to do with end times? What does the Spirit sending him paying clients have to do with end times?  What do his "degrees" have to do with end times? What does most of this book have to do with end times?

[Tiki]

It may have already been mentioned, but there's a website called AVOW that's into all of this.

 

As I understand it, it's based on the concept found in Joel 2:28

 

"And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:"

 

The premise is:

• Members and non-members are having dreams of the last days; (google vision of the Cardston Temple, vision of Wilford Woodruff as recorded by John Taylor - or vice versa)
• These dreams have similar elements; They're complied or added by users at AVOW; and separately by authors such as Crowther, etc.
• Most of the dreams are of Church leaders asking members who are prepared with their years' supply of food, clothing, etc, asked to flee to the mountains, then live in tent cities in locations prepared by the church, shortly before society at large falls apart through disease, pestilence, wars. If you're not prepared you're left behind or you can arrive later, if you're able.
• This is based on good people always having to flee Babylon: Lehi, Nauvoo & Missouri Saints, etc.
• These tent cities are called cities of light, etc. by those who have the dreams
• Later, society at large, major cities, etc, succumb to devastating diseases where people fall where they stand from some new disease(s)
• People flee cities, chaos, anarchy everywhere. No fuel, no electricity, no-government, no law enforcement. Non-members walk to try to get to these cities of light. There are wandering gangs who molest/kill people looking for food, etc.
• Utter chaos, both Russia and China attack the US due to break down in govt and society. Nuclear bombs go off worldwide. Ca is invaded by Chinese troops. Russian troop invade the east coast & paratroop into SLC  ? per one dream - because the world hates the church. Citizens remaining fight the foreign invaders. Both China and Russia are eventually defeated by the US Military after half of the US Military surrenders.
• The Earth herself revolts, earthquakes and volcanoes in the US West, what remains of the people and some cities are destroyed
• One dream even mentions the Continental US splits in two along the Mississippi River and the waters of the Great Lakes and the Gulf of Mexico rush in
• All the while, the faithful saints are safe in their mountain tent cities
• The Lord Returns - Second Coming

It can give you nightmares 

 

Whether or not the initial dreams mentioned above are accurate, you'll have to decide.

If there are some who claim they are having similar dreams, or are just good writers fraudulently publishing "dreams" based on the same theme, you'll also have to decide.

OR people having dreams/nightmares after reading this stuff...you can decide on that too.

 

So, I suggest following the Prophet, not some peeping wizards. But we've been warned to prepare with a years supply.

 

After that, if you want to believe in peeps or be a peeping wizard that mutters, that's your decision.

Edited July 1, 2014 by Tiki

[Scott Lloyd]

Not sure that the classes of the Church were originally designed to be "havens of doctrinal purity" -- that sounds more like a fundamentalist or Puritan concept.  The Church in its early years encouraged exploration of concepts -- but that was before Priesthood Correlation.

I suppose there are many ways in which the Church has become more refined in how it does things since "Its early years." And yes, purity of doctrine is very much a concern of the Church of Jesus Christ (see this treatise written by my friend Ed Brandt). 

 

Yes, Church meetings and classes are and ought to be havens of pure doctrine, and, your antipathy for Church Correlation notwithstanding, that is one of its purposes. It would be worthwhile if only to preserve us from nonsense like Visions of Glory.

Edited July 1, 2014 by Scott Lloyd

[rodheadlee]

The part I don't like is the paid seminar and I have to buy a book to read his prophecies. Then Spenser is compared to Lehi, I don't recall Lehi charging money to hear his vision nor do I believe ANY prophet prophesying of the destruction of Jerusalem circa 600BC charged money. It's not like they had the internet, why the book and the seminars if this is such an important work? 

[Tiki]

The part I don't like is the paid seminar and I have to buy a book to read his prophecies. Then Spenser is compared to Lehi, I don't recall Lehi charging money to hear his vision nor do I believe ANY prophet prophesying of the destruction of Jerusalem circa 600BC charged money. It's not like they had the internet, why the book and the seminars if this is such an important work? 

 

There's all sorts of this stuff for free on the internet:

 

http://ogdenkraut.com/Visions%20of%20the%20Latter%20Days.htm

http://www.reliefmine.com/articles/dreams-a-visions/59-dreams-a-visions/93-the-cardston-temple-vision-world-war-iii

http://www.latterdayconservative.com/john-taylor/john-taylors-last-days-vision/

 

You too can compile this stuff in Microsoft Word, save it as a PDF file then sell it online for $9.95 as an e-book !

[juliann]

Adding to him telling mothers their emotional state determines the health or survival of their baby, this is yet another violation of church teachings. I so hope those women with handicapped or sickly children are not reading this.  And again, none of this has to do with end days!

 

God does not gift us with things we have not qualified for in some way. This is also true of angels. p 114

 

 This is a great example of how he consistently misuses scripture or fails to use modern teachings.  Despite his attempts to soften this, he is saying that the sins of the fathers are visited on the sons.  Christ kind of objected to that.  He seems to have ignored the lesson of the Priesthood ban.

 

When their children and grandchildren follow their example, then the dark "gifts" are passed down through the generations. This may explain why some families have been royalty for hundreds of years, or wealthy and oppressive from the beginning of time, or any other dark familial trait. It may also explain why prophets and apostles tend to be related, and greatness runs in families.  p. 114-115

 

 

He sets up a caste system of angels. This also has nothing to do with end times.

 

    The three angels were speaking to one another nonverbally. I could hear them. The teaching angels were comforting the younger one.  It's fine. everything's fine.  No need to be concerned. We are here to ensure Spencer returns to his body.  Have faith.  pg 26

 

In the world of departed spirits, the teaching of the gospel to past generations must come from righteous souls who acquired it during their lives.  In other words, you must acquire the gospel here on earth before you can be a missionary and minister to those who departed before you who, for whatever reason, did not embrace the gospel during their mortal lives. This is one of the reasons the righteous departed are welcomed with such joyful reception in heaven, because some of these earlier generations have been waiting a long time for a descendant of theirs to embrace  the gospel of Jesus Christ.  p 27

 

This is where it gets truly disturbing...

 

When we pray for a great blessing, need, or healing, Jesus Christ sends our righteous progenitors as ministering angels to deliver the blessing.  If we have no righteous forbearers, then the blessings must be attended to by other righteous workers there, of whom there is a short supply.  Any angel who is able to deliver these blessings works first with their own families and then goes on assignments to bless others.  This means that our blessings may be delayed in coming or seem to arrive just barely in time. They are busy working to establish the relationships and to protect and bless them. p. 27

 

 

[juliann]

The book was so plodding that I began circling the descriptive words he used over and over and over and over and over and over....  You can find these words on almost any given page.  There are sometimes multiple uses of each word just on one page.  

 

From p. 227,

 

glorious

gift

amazing

awe inspiring

glorious

fascinating

glorious

undimming wonder

beauty

beautiful

rejoicing

 

You can pick any page and pretty much have a complete lexicon of adjectives.  Turn the page and among the adjectives....

profound

beautiful

marvel

beautiful

glorious

purity

power

beauty

beautified

glorious

 

In one paragraph on the next to last page:

 

beautiful

beautiful

glorious

beauty

glorious

glowing (There is more glowing in this book than in Twilight)

 

Other than some superficial detail, white, pyramidal, size of a city, "many spires, arches,and architectural wonders", this was the summation of his description of the Celestial kingdom that he is qualified for. Whenever something is of great interest, he gives the least detail and the most recycled words. Christ showing up is a pretty big deal, right?  I'd really want to read every possible detail about that!  But he offers up the lyrics to a hymn. Yet he includes the hour and minute he goes in and out of visions.

Edited July 1, 2014 by juliann

[juliann]

This is how he sets up his passage into greatness, another highly unlikely story.  After all, this is a man with three degrees who should be able to comprehend "all his life" church teachings.  Yes, he did not have one person ever bring up scripture nor did he ever read a church magazine or read a General Conference talk.  No home teacher, no friend, no GD teacher, not even his wife clued him in to the fact that Jesus didn't say nice things about rich people.

 

But this may be the best example of how casually he misrepresents and then throws the church and its leaders under the bus to elevate himself
 

I came to realize that almost all of my goals were misaligned with God's plan for me.  I had been taught all my life to make money, raise a family, get known by the world, and then the Lord will use you in whatever way, because you will be skilled, rich, and available.

 I'm not sure if previous to this experience I had subscribed completely to this goal in life, yet it is what I had been taught all my life by leaders, even by both of my mission presidents. It had never completely rung true to me, and now I knew why.   p 39-40

 

 

Going back to the unrelenting contradictions in this book, he also insists that good angels are helpless if you don't make the right choices, i.e., think the right thoughts.  They timidly retreat when the demons make headway...before you have actually done anything.  Yet, even with his driving goal of becoming rich and famous, which according to his own account should be the result of the evil spirits whispering in his ear, the good angels are not whimpering in the corner as they do with everyone else, they come out and take him on tours.   He consistently grants himself exemptions from his harsh rules for others. 

 

Putting the blame on others for his own flaws is one of his rhetorical sleight of hand tricks that removes him from any responsibility for his own thinking or situation.  On p. 219 he relates that he can read the minds of the enemy and determine their intent.  If they mean no harm they get to live, if not...Spencer has permission from God to slaughter them.

 

What does this have to do with end times, manofcloth?

[The Nehor]

Is there a market for stories about how I am the AntiChrist?

 

At the Nehor's birth two angels attended. Not to help this child live but to stop him from taking his first breath. The work with the mother had failed. She did not have a downtrodden disposition and had not committed any sins of late. The child was sure to live. In the councils before the world was he was the innovator. He came up with the plan to dethrone God and compel all that live to righteousness. His brother Lucifer was a better orator and volunteered to present the plan at the great council. Then the betrayal came. Lucifer took sole credit and the Nehor joined the side of God.....not out of a desire for righteousness but to spite his betraying enemy.

 

God knew he would select his own plan again on earth and like Cain seek to rule the fallen angels. As Nehor came forth into the world the devils moved in. The angels could not save the doctor. He had had a passing evil thought earlier and the nurses were minority women with all the weaknesses common to their ilk. They were doomed to death. As Nehor took his first breath the devils struck. Asmodeus killed the doctor with a scalpel while Molech cut the nurses to shreds with his demonic claws and shoved the remains out of the third story window laughing. Nehor came into the world splattered with more blood then the usual mewling infant and swallowed some of the demonic ichor dripping from his premortal lackeys. Lucifer entered the room in all his dark majesty and offered the spirit of the child a deal. Together they would implement their plan of compulsion about humanity. Both knew there would be a reckoning and one day only one could rule. Until then their foul alliance would stand.

 

The child giggled and Satan laughed. A doctor came into the room and vomited at the sight of all the blood. Hoping to save the cut doctor he began to administer first aid while yelling, "We're losing him!!! We're losing him! The infant's giggles intensified. Lucifer began whispering to the infant of the one enemy that could stop them. The one fated to save all who lived. The infant assumed he spoke of Jesus but he told of a greater foe and shouted the name into the child's very soul:

SPENCER!!!!!!!

[bdouglas]

Is there a market for stories about how I am the AntiChrist?

 

I like it Nehor! For my part, I'm going to pen a "Visions" knock-off. I am going to call it "Greater Visions Of Glory". At my birth there are not only angels dressed up as nurses but the doc who delivers me is a doctor angel masquerading as a mortal, and in addition to all of these angels superintending and watching over my momentous birth there are heavenly choirs announcing it. Later in life I will battle the forces of darkness at Armageddon, single-handedly delivering Israel from annihilation.

 

And all of this is just the beginning....

Edited July 2, 2014 by bdouglas

[The Nehor]

I like it Nehor! For my part, I'm going to pen a "Visions" knock-off. I am going to call it "Greater Visions Of Glory". At my birth there are not only angels dressed up as nurses but the doc who delivers me is a doctor angel masquerading as a mortal, and in addition to all of these angels superintending and watching over my momentous my birth there are heavenly choirs announcing it. Later in life I will battle the forces of darkness at Armageddon, single-handedly delivering Israel from annihilation.

 

And this is just the beginning.

If you want to beat Spencer you need to name drop. I recommend having Michael or Raphael be the doctor angel.

[bdouglas]

delete

Edited July 2, 2014 by bdouglas

[juliann]

The child was sure to live. In the councils before the world was he was the innovator. He came up with the plan to dethrone God and compel all that live to righteousness. His brother Lucifer was a better orator and volunteered to present the plan at the great council. Then the betrayal came. Lucifer took sole credit and the Nehor joined the side of God.....not out of a desire for righteousness but to spite his betraying enemy.

 

This book is ripe for satire, unfortunately.  But for it to be an effective satire you will have to use the same word at least three times in each paragraph, if not each sentence.

 

Anyway, your book has a solid foundation....on pg. 32 Spencer discloses,  "I expect there are some spirits that came here with impure motives and desires. But I found that my spirit only desired good, only desired to be in harmony with God". 

[manofthecloth]

There are too many doctrinal problems with the book to list in one post. I'll give a sample as I get time. (I'm indebted to a knowledgeable friend for pointing these out; the following list thus reflects his analysis.)

 

Mr Lloyd: I like you because you are respectful and clarity is never obtained with contention. My favorite pundit of this era is Dennis Prager who demonstrates he prefers clarity over agreement which I have adopted as a goal. Like you I will respond as I  have time.

 

S.Lloyd: There are too many doctrinal problems with the book to list in one post. I'll give a sample as I get time. (I'm indebted to a knowledgeable friend for pointing these out; the following list thus reflects his analysis.)

 

M.O.Cloth: I wish you had read the book for yourself because your insights may be superior.

 

S.Lloyd: The author said he would meet someone named John to share his dreams with who would help him understand the dreams. This contradicts how the Lord works within the Church regarding spiritual manifestations and gifts (see D&C 46:27).

 

And unto the bishop of the church, and unto such as God shall appoint and ordain to watch over the church and to be elders unto the church, are to have it given unto them to discern all those gifts lest there shall be any among you professing and yet be not of God.

 

M.O.Cloth: You would be referring to a ward bishop because our presiding bishop has no keys and no ecclesiastical responsibilities. Yes, my ward bishop has discernment and the keys to detect both evil and good gifts which is why I trust him to make callings and to guide me when he seeks the Lord. My ward’s elders quorum president and the high priest group leader are similarly charged to watch out for anything amiss in my ward.  I do not, however, need permission to receive gifts from the Lord through my leaders and he doesn't no send all gifts to me through them.

 

Amasa Potter recalled: “I remember the Prophet arising to preach to a large congregation in the grove west of the Temple in Nauvoo. He stated that he would preach on spiritual gifts. … Joseph stated that every Latter-day Saint had a gift, and by living a righteous life, and asking for it, the Holy Spirit would reveal it to him or her. -- Juvenile Instructor, Feb. 15, 1894, p. 132.

 

Similarly the apostle Paul urged new members to seek gifts that they might prophecy and therefore edify the church rather than speaking in strange tongues that no one understood. He urged them thus even though the Church was under the leadership of the apostles. 1 Corinthians 14:1-5

 

Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy … etc

 

I don’t see the crucial connection you want me to see about how the Lord works within His church. He can make an assignment to anyone at any time and he often does. Speaking of Paul the Lord directed a certain disciple named Ananias in a vision ….And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and inquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth, And hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in, and putting his hand on him, that he might receive his sight. -- Acts 9:10-12.

 

Spencer, Saul, John and Ananias seem similar to me.

[manofthecloth]

There are too many doctrinal problems with the book to list in one post. I'll give a sample as I get time. (I'm indebted to a knowledgeable friend for pointing these out; the following list thus reflects his analysis.)

 

S.Lloyd: Among strange doctrines found throughout the book, Spencer indicates that angels had come dressed in nurse uniforms posing as mortals to attend his birth. This does not conform to the ministering of angels as defined in scripture (see Moroni 7:31).

 

And the office of their ministry is to call men unto repentance, and to fulfil and to do the work of the covenants of the Father, which he hath made unto the children of men, to prepare the way among the children of men, by declaring the word of Christ unto the chosen vessels of the Lord, that they may bear testimony of him. -- Moroni 7:31

 

M.O.Cloth: Your friend has a very narrow definition of what an angel does, but go back one verse.

 

For behold, they (angels) are subject unto him, to minister according to the word of his command, showing themselves unto them of strong faith and a firm mind in every form of godliness. -- Moroni 7:30

 

Angels can be given any assignment at any time from God. When you read the book for yourself, pay attention to when the angels are present. Tiny stillborn Spencer had been determined dead, had been wrapped in a newspaper and tossed into the sink while the emergency of saving his mother was going on. The angels (which means they had to be either translated or resurrected to have had bodies) concentrated their efforts over by the sink (away from the fracas) to revive the dead infant. I can’t see what makes this so belly-laughable and impossible.  Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares. -- Hebrews 13:2.  

Spirits can only be revealed in flaming fire, or glory. Angels have advanced farther--their light and glory being tabernacled, and hence appear in bodily shape. -- Joseph Smith, Times and Seasons 4:331-332