The Nehor Posted July 4, 2014 Posted July 4, 2014 That is what Laman & Lemuel thought also... ** It is harder to see when in the midst of it, rather then reviewing it in hindsight. ** Yeah, but unlike their dispensation we have promises that the church as a whole will not fall into apostasy before the Savior returns in glory. If we lived in another dispensation there might be a need for a new Lehi. Not a new Spencer though as he is a hack writer who teaches principles contrary to the true gospel.
BookofMormonLuvr Posted July 4, 2014 Posted July 4, 2014 (edited) Yeah, but unlike their dispensation we have promises that the church as a whole will not fall into apostasy before the Savior returns in glory. If we lived in another dispensation there might be a need for a new Lehi. Not a new Spencer though as he is a hack writer who teaches principles contrary to the true gospel.Actually, the promise is that the Priesthood will never again be removed from the earth- A promise I wholeheartedly agree with!! Doctrine and Covenants 13:11 Upon you my fellow servants, in the name of Messiah I confer thePriesthood of Aaron, which holds the keys of the ministering of angels, and of the gospel of repentance, and of baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; and this shall never be taken again from the earth, until the sons of Levi do offer again an offering unto the Lord in righteousness. Edited July 4, 2014 by BookofMormonLuvr
manofthecloth Posted July 4, 2014 Posted July 4, 2014 There has to be a compelling reason for God to work in that manner. That reason existed in Lehi's day. It does not exist today, so it is improbable that God is going to give authoritative, "sifting" visions to a person outside of that authority structure.Compelling reasons have existed at every turning point of history. Where does it say that we of all people are just going to drift into the Millennium without any disruptions? The answer is nowhere. It was always God’s people’s apostasy that brought on generalized calamities. They were the catalyst and we will follow them. Our smugness means we don’t know the scriptures. With what judgment we judge others, we will be judged. Spencer called it like he witnessed it. No more. No less.
jwhitlock Posted July 4, 2014 Posted July 4, 2014 That is what Laman & Lemuel thought also... ** It is harder to see when in the midst of it, rather then reviewing it in hindsight. ** Any comparison can be drawn with whatever you want - just as long as you don't expect people to look too deeply into the details. Again, for this comparison to work, you have to subscribe to the notion that the church is basically in apostasy. You don't seem willing to come right out and say that, however. You just keep trying to draw generalized comparisons. So which is it? Are you telling us the church is in apostasy and so someone like "Spencer" is necessary? Or if not, what are you saying?
The Nehor Posted July 4, 2014 Posted July 4, 2014 Actually, the promise is that the Priesthood will never again be removed from the earth- A promise I wholeheartedly agree with!! Doctrine and Covenants 13:11 Upon you my fellow servants, in the name of Messiah I confer thePriesthood of Aaron, which holds the keys of the ministering of angels, and of the gospel of repentance, and of baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; and this shall never be taken again from the earth, until the sons of Levi do offer again an offering unto the Lord in righteousness. Both were promised to survive. 1
The Nehor Posted July 4, 2014 Posted July 4, 2014 Compelling reasons have existed at every turning point of history. Where does it say that we of all people are just going to drift into the Millennium without any disruptions? The answer is nowhere. It was always God’s people’s apostasy that brought on generalized calamities. They were the catalyst and we will follow them. Our smugness means we don’t know the scriptures. With what judgment we judge others, we will be judged. Spencer called it like he witnessed it. No more. No less. So did Spencer come to cure apostasy or didn't he? 1
jwhitlock Posted July 4, 2014 Posted July 4, 2014 One of the significant inconsistencies in the book is the fact that "Spencer" goes to gather the lost tribes from up in the Arctic somewhere - and he does so outside of the authority structure of the church. Unfortunately for "Spencer", the keys for the gathering of Israel were conferred upon Joseph Smith and have been passed down through the apostolic authority structure to the present day. So how does "Spencer" get to be in charge of the gathering when he doesn't have the keys?
BookofMormonLuvr Posted July 4, 2014 Posted July 4, 2014 Any comparison can be drawn with whatever you want - just as long as you don't expect people to look too deeply into the details. Again, for this comparison to work, you have to subscribe to the notion that the church is basically in apostasy. You don't seem willing to come right out and say that, however. You just keep trying to draw generalized comparisons. So which is it? Are you telling us the church is in apostasy and so someone like "Spencer" is necessary? Or if not, what are you saying?I am more then willing... the Restored Church is in a general state of apostasy. LDS, RLDS, CofC, Temple Lot, Rigdonite, etc. etc. etc...we have ALL treated lightly the former commandments, to do them. We are all out of order on some level. ALL of us.
jwhitlock Posted July 4, 2014 Posted July 4, 2014 Compelling reasons have existed at every turning point of history. Where does it say that we of all people are just going to drift into the Millennium without any disruptions? The answer is nowhere. It was always God’s people’s apostasy that brought on generalized calamities. They were the catalyst and we will follow them. Our smugness means we don’t know the scriptures. With what judgment we judge others, we will be judged. Spencer called it like he witnessed it. No more. No less. As Nehor noted, are you telling us that "Spencer" has come because the church is in apostasy? No one here has said that we're "just going to drift into the Millenium without any disruptions". However, the type of "disruption" that "Spencer" describes, where being a faithful church member means nothing as far as temporal protection is concerned, is not consistent with how faithful individuals in the church who keep their covenants are going to fare during all of this. Otherwise, can you answer some things directly without resorting to random truisms?
jwhitlock Posted July 4, 2014 Posted July 4, 2014 I am more then willing... the Restored Church is in a general state of apostasy. LDS, RLDS, CofC, Temple Lot, Rigdonite, etc. etc. etc...we have ALL treated lightly the former commandments, to do them. We are all out of order on some level. ALL of us. Well that's where we need to disagree then. However, you do bring up a good point. A book like VoG only makes sense if you think the church is in apostasy and that new direction of some sort is needed. That's not the case, since the restoration in 1830 has resulted in a specific church with priesthood authority and keys that has been charged to prepare a people to receive Christ at His Coming. That church is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints; it's most definitely NOT "Spencer", whoever he is.
bdouglas Posted July 4, 2014 Author Posted July 4, 2014 (edited) So did Spencer come to cure apostasy or didn't he? All of the people that I am aware of who are really into "Visions" believe this, that the church is in apostasy and that the doctor (God) has prescribed Spencer, a modern day Lehi, as the cure. Only Spencer is a far greater and more momentous prophet than Lehi. Edited July 4, 2014 by bdouglas
juliann Posted July 4, 2014 Posted July 4, 2014 (edited) Compelling reasons have existed at every turning point of history. Where does it say that we of all people are just going to drift into the Millennium without any disruptions? The answer is nowhere. It was always God’s people’s apostasy that brought on generalized calamities. They were the catalyst and we will follow them. Our smugness means we don’t know the scriptures. With what judgment we judge others, we will be judged. Spencer called it like he witnessed it. No more. No less. Well, the Bible does actually say that people will continue to marry, be married, and party on. Remember that? In short...it means most people won't even know anything is different. We are getting used to natural disasters because of the 24/7 coverage. So that isn't going be unusual. Even Spencer portrays Mormons waiting in camps having to be taught (by him, of course) what is going on! Let that sink in for a moment. And I sure hope you are not saying that God makes disasters happen because some people are naughty. Even the church has spoken out against that...but I suspect for you that is just another sign the leaders are the ones in apostasy. And oh, boy....does Spencer judge people. He knows their every thought and their entire lives and has permission from God to kill the opposition if their thoughts don't measure up. And the racism.... Did you not notice he divided Europe into "northern Europe" to make sure the Slavic peoples would arrive too late for him to get rid of all their disgusting cultural practices? Again, Spencer seems totally unaware that the church is ok with Polynesian tribal tattoos that signify leadership. You know, like those Tahitian types who are stand ins for Satan? Edited July 4, 2014 by juliann 2
BookofMormonLuvr Posted July 4, 2014 Posted July 4, 2014 Maybe 3rd time is a charm....I have no feelings whatsoever concerning "Spencer". So persistently referring to him in posts directed at me makes no sense.Also, I noticed this was asked of me... So which is it? Are you telling us the church is in apostasy and so someone like "Spencer" is necessary? Or if not, what are you saying? There may be a One Mighty and Strong figure or perhaps YHVH will begin sending warning messengers outside of our ranks because His priesthood is so deafened by their traditions.I believe he is doing the latter right now- I believe Jonathan Cahn has been raised up to be a warning voice that the Restored Priesthood has thus far refused to be.I believe and pray that Restored Priesthood men will shortly begin to awaken to our dire situation and be sent out by YHVH to begin warning of the judgement soon to come.
jwhitlock Posted July 4, 2014 Posted July 4, 2014 All of the people that I am aware of who are really into "Visions" believe this, that the church is in apostasy and that the doctor (God) has prescribed Spencer, a modern day Lehi, as the cure. Only Spencer is a far greater and more momentous prophet than Lehi. I'm not aware of anyone within my circle of acquaintances who takes the book seriously. However, in reading what supporters have written, there seems to be virtually no attempt to justify their belief with any corroborating evidence. They just "bear testimony" of how the spirit has told them it's all true and that "Spencer" saw this stuff in a real vision from God. A real testimony requires prayer, study, fasting, pondering, and weighing evidence for and against a truth claim. It's more than just feeling good about something; it's all things coming together, including outside evidences, to testify of the truth of what's being studied. Why is it that VoG supporters seem to refuse to look at the book from a critical angle, and attempt to at least address the glaring inconsistencies? Why is it that there is never even an acknowledgement that those inconsistencies exist? It's almost like someone felt good about the book, and that's all it took. They were a believer from then on. No more thinking required. It's just very odd to me. 2
juliann Posted July 4, 2014 Posted July 4, 2014 I'm not aware of anyone within my circle of acquaintances who takes the book seriously. However, in reading what supporters have written, there seems to be virtually no attempt to justify their belief with any corroborating evidence. They just "bear testimony" of how the spirit has told them it's all true and that "Spencer" saw this stuff in a real vision from God. A real testimony requires prayer, study, fasting, pondering, and weighing evidence for and against a truth claim. It's more than just feeling good about something; it's all things coming together, including outside evidences, to testify of the truth of what's being studied. Why is it that VoG supporters seem to refuse to look at the book from a critical angle, and attempt to at least address the glaring inconsistencies? Why is it that there is never even an acknowledgement that those inconsistencies exist? It's almost like someone felt good about the book, and that's all it took. They were a believer from then on. No more thinking required. It's just very odd to me. That is a very good observation and what I have seen, as well. When that is brought into the church building it becomes necessary to shine the light on the book. 3
jwhitlock Posted July 4, 2014 Posted July 4, 2014 (edited) Maybe 3rd time is a charm....I have no feelings whatsoever concerning "Spencer". So persistently referring to him in posts directed at me makes no sense.Also, I noticed this was asked of me... There may be a One Mighty and Strong figure or perhaps YHVH will begin sending warning messengers outside of our ranks because His priesthood is so deafened by their traditions.I believe he is doing the latter right now- I believe Jonathan Cahn has been raised up to be a warning voice that the Restored Priesthood has thus far refused to be.I believe and pray that Restored Priesthood men will shortly begin to awaken to our dire situation and be sent out by YHVH to begin warning of the judgement soon to come. The "Mighty and Strong" section in the D&C is a favorite scripture for those seeking to "prove" that the church is in apostasy and that someone else has been raised up to correct things. Of course, Joseph himself said that God holds Himself responsible for interpreting scriptures like this, and since God hasn't provided the interpretation, using it to prove that a favorite public figure has been raised up is just wrong. I wasn't familiar with Jonathan Cahn; rather than derail this thread, why don't you start another thread talking about him and why you think the church is in apostasy and that Mr. Cahn is the one to correct it. As to "Spencer", he's what the thread is about, so don't be surprised that he is referred to in responses to you. Edited July 4, 2014 by jwhitlock 1
The Nehor Posted July 4, 2014 Posted July 4, 2014 I am more then willing... the Restored Church is in a general state of apostasy. LDS, RLDS, CofC, Temple Lot, Rigdonite, etc. etc. etc...we have ALL treated lightly the former commandments, to do them. We are all out of order on some level. ALL of us. That is not apostasy. That is sin. Apostasy is sin but not all sin is apostasy.
Rain Posted July 5, 2014 Posted July 5, 2014 The water purifier has both clean and dirty water coming put of it after they pour dirty water into it?
mbh26 Posted July 5, 2014 Posted July 5, 2014 I'm not aware of anyone within my circle of acquaintances who takes the book seriously. However, in reading what supporters have written, there seems to be virtually no attempt to justify their belief with any corroborating evidence. They just "bear testimony" of how the spirit has told them it's all true and that "Spencer" saw this stuff in a real vision from God. A real testimony requires prayer, study, fasting, pondering, and weighing evidence for and against a truth claim. It's more than just feeling good about something; it's all things coming together, including outside evidences, to testify of the truth of what's being studied. Why is it that VoG supporters seem to refuse to look at the book from a critical angle, and attempt to at least address the glaring inconsistencies? Why is it that there is never even an acknowledgement that those inconsistencies exist? It's almost like someone felt good about the book, and that's all it took. They were a believer from then on. No more thinking required. I agree with you but I can't believe how everyone has unloaded on "Spencer" in this thread. I had my doubts about the book when I read it last year, but I saw a lot of truths in it as well. I'm not TBM but my father and siblings are. They don't believe that the mainstream LDS church will ever be in apostasy nor do they ever admit any errors in it, and they totally believed, felt good, and bore testimony of the book. It just seems to me that you could levy many of these same criticisms at the scriptures and the prophets who actually went out on a limb to put out "revelations." Hence we have a church leadership that is hesitant to say anything at all right now, and our Sunday School classes have been painfully boring for several decades. I think we could afford to be a little more respectful of the "weakness of peoples words" in describing their spiritual experiences and perhaps we'd be a little more enlightened and uplifted even if we find some parts that don't quite add up. What happened to the catch all, "The natural man can't understand the things of God," or "only when speaking as a prophet," that we use to excuse otherwise inspired writings that we don't agree with. 1
manofthecloth Posted July 5, 2014 Posted July 5, 2014 Well, the Bible does actually say that people will continue to marry, be married, and party on. Remember that? In short...it means most people won't even know anything is different. We are getting used to natural disasters because of the 24/7 coverage. So that isn't going be unusual. Even Spencer portrays Mormons waiting in camps having to be taught (by him, of course) what is going on! Let that sink in for a moment. And I sure hope you are not saying that God makes disasters happen because some people are naughty. Even the church has spoken out against that...but I suspect for you that is just another sign the leaders are the ones in apostasy. And oh, boy....does Spencer judge people. He knows their every thought and their entire lives and has permission from God to kill the opposition if their thoughts don't measure up. And the racism.... Did you not notice he divided Europe into "northern Europe" to make sure the Slavic peoples would arrive too late for him to get rid of all their disgusting cultural practices? Again, Spencer seems totally unaware that the church is ok with Polynesian tribal tattoos that signify leadership. You know, like those Tahitian types who are stand ins for Satan?Context is everything, but these ideas expressed are distortions. Your supporters have been most defensive of your veracity and sincerity, but it's hard to believe we read the same book.
manofthecloth Posted July 5, 2014 Posted July 5, 2014 I'm not aware of anyone within my circle of acquaintances who takes the book seriously. However, in reading what supporters have written, there seems to be virtually no attempt to justify their belief with any corroborating evidence. They just "bear testimony" of how the spirit has told them it's all true and that "Spencer" saw this stuff in a real vision from God. A real testimony requires prayer, study, fasting, pondering, and weighing evidence for and against a truth claim. It's more than just feeling good about something; it's all things coming together, including outside evidences, to testify of the truth of what's being studied. Why is it that VoG supporters seem to refuse to look at the book from a critical angle, and attempt to at least address the glaring inconsistencies? Why is it that there is never even an acknowledgement that those inconsistencies exist? It's almost like someone felt good about the book, and that's all it took. They were a believer from then on. No more thinking required. It's just very odd to me.Instead of relying on others for your information about the book, do as you have suggested. Read the book with faith that it might have something in it for you and apply the lessons of Alma in growing the seed. Blind obedience to the idea it is wrong is equally mind boggling. So far only Juliann and I have read it.
manofthecloth Posted July 5, 2014 Posted July 5, 2014 (edited) So did Spencer come to cure apostasy or didn't he?jWhitlockAs Nehor noted, are you telling us that "Spencer" has come because the church is in apostasy? No one here has said that we're "just going to drift into the Millenium without any disruptions". However, the type of "disruption" that "Spencer" describes, where being a faithful church member means nothing as far as temporal protection is concerned, is not consistent with how faithful individuals in the church who keep their covenants are going to fare during all of this. Otherwise, can you answer some things directly without resorting to random truisms? All of the people that I am aware of who are really into "Visions" believe this, that the church is in apostasy and that the doctor (God) has prescribed Spencer, a modern day Lehi, as the cure. Only Spencer is a far greater and more momentous prophet than Lehi. As usual cousin bDouglas your gall cup runneth over with satire. No Spencer cannot cure apostasy because that's not in the plan for us. Behold, vengeance cometh speedily upon the inhabitants of the earth, a day of wrath, a day of burning, a day of desolation, of weeping, of mourning, and of lamentation; and as a whirlwind it shall come upon all the face of the earth, saith the Lord. And upon my house shall it begin, and from my house shall it go forth, saith the Lord; First among those among you, saith the Lord, who have professed to know my name and have not known me, and have blasphemed against me in the midst of my house, saith the Lord. -- D&C 112:24-26 Spencer's visions stand on their own against those who dither away their preparation time before the Lord comes. It is theoretically possible to avoid apostasy in the coming years, but only if we all start finding answers like Enoch's people did. They achieved Zion together, but there's no indication we're on course to do the same without serious refinement and correction from external forces. In other words Spencer saw the calamities which will make us worthy to be like Christ. Inadequate spiritual growth will result from too many temporal protections to avoid the fuller's fire. We need the disaster which will come in order for all of us (including our beloved leaders and non-members alike) to be ready for the Terrestrial phase of this earth. To theNehor, jWhitlock, bDouglas: Is D&C 112:24-26 speaking about us or not? Be clear and be specific. I want to know. Edited July 5, 2014 by manofthecloth
Calm Posted July 5, 2014 Posted July 5, 2014 Instead of relying on others for your information about the book, do as you have suggested. Read the book with faith that it might have something in it for you and apply the lessons of Alma in growing the seed. Blind obedience to the idea it is wrong is equally mind boggling. So far only Juliann and I have read it.So the quotes that Juliann has posted aren't actually from the book?
bdouglas Posted July 5, 2014 Author Posted July 5, 2014 (edited) Behold, vengeance cometh speedily upon the inhabitants of the earth, a day of wrath, a day of burning, a day of desolation, of weeping, of mourning, and of lamentation; and as a whirlwind it shall come upon all the face of the earth, saith the Lord. And upon my house shall it begin, and from my house shall it go forth, saith the Lord; First among those among you, saith the Lord, who have professed to know my name and have not known me, and have blasphemed against me in the midst of my house, saith the Lord. -- D&C 112:24-26 To theNehor, jWhitlock, bDouglas: Is D&C 112:24-26 speaking about us or not? Be clear and be specific. I want to know. This passage from the D&C has long interested me. I have no doubt that one day there will changes, a cleansing of sorts, a re-structuring, whatever you want to call it. But this does not mean the church now is in apostasy, i.e., that the leadership is in apostasy. When this day comes and there are changes, however, I would hope the Lord sends someone who can be taken seriously, someone who is not weak- and narrow-minded, prudish, credulous, full of himself, and strikingly unoriginal (for someone who claims to have had such marvelous visions and revelations, you would expect to see something new in "Visions")...all of which describe Spencer, despite his three "advanced degrees". (And I have read the book, MOTC——no, not all of it but at least 50%. I have it on Kindle.) Note: A lot of the ideas that proponents of "Visions" espouse and that MOTC has expressed in posts on this thread have originated with Avraham Gileadi. Is this correct, MOTC? Edited July 5, 2014 by bdouglas 1
manofthecloth Posted July 5, 2014 Posted July 5, 2014 This passage from the D&C has long interested me. I have no doubt that one day there will changes, a cleansing of sorts, a re-structuring, whatever you want to call it. But this does not mean the church now is in apostasy, i.e., that the leadership is in apostasy. When this day comes and there are changes, however, I would hope the Lord sends someone who can be taken seriously, someone who is not weak- and narrow-minded, prudish, credulous, full of himself...all of which describe Spencer, despite his three "advanced degrees". (And yes, MOTC, I have read the book, at least 60-70%. I have it on Kindle.) Note: A lot of the ideas that proponents of "Visions" espouse and that MOTC has expressed in posts on this thread have originated with Avraham Gileadi. Is this correct, MOTC? Beloved Cousin: We agree on D&C 112:24-26. This is the beginning of understanding. In Spencer you find fault, but in you I see hope. Avraham Gileadi has posted his reply, but you can't get me to say truth originates from Avraham Gileadi. You can get me to say he knows Isaiah and Spencer doesn't contradict either source.
Recommended Posts