"visions Of Glory" - Nonsense? Or Legit?

[BookofMormonLuvr]

Quite a few. I have used them to do work for me (usually construction) for many years now. I know many of them.

Well, I don't know what group you gleaned them from, but the ones I know are both smart and not lacking in common-sense.

[Tacenda]

Quite a few. I have used them to do work for me (usually construction) for many years now. I know many of them.

Were there young boys working along side them? I've heard they send young boys to work as early as 8 or 9, but pretty sure OSHA would come after you right?

[sethpayne]

 

I see this whole movement as motivated by the same crowd that fall for Lehaye's "Left Behind" jargon. People with a need for the dramatic and an obsession with end-times prophecies to give their lives meaning gravitate to this stuff. 

 

Tell me about it.  This nonsense has been going on for nearly 2000 years.  Get a load of this guy:

 

Revelation 1:1–8 (NRSV)

 

 

 

¹The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place; he made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, ²who testified to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw. ³Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of the prophecy, and blessed are those who hear and who keep what is written in it; for the time is near. ⁴John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace from him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven spirits who are before his throne, ⁵and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To him who loves us and freed us from our sins by his blood, ⁶and made us to be a kingdom, priests serving his God and Father, to him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen. ⁷Look! He is coming with the clouds; every eye will see him, even those who pierced him; and on his account all the tribes of the earth will wail. So it is to be. Amen. ⁸“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.

 

Edited July 1, 2014 by sethpayne

[bdouglas]

Well, I don't know what group you gleaned them from, but the ones I know are both smart and not lacking in common-sense.

 

A lot of them are actually just about illiterate. They are very smart about construction (I mean the ones I have used) and they are good workers and yes they are smart in their narrow specialty. But education is not emphasized in their culture, in fact it is discouraged, even forbidden in some cases. They (and again, I'm talking about the ones I have had dealings with) don't even know anything about the scriptures they are supposed to believe in. I have never met one of them who knew anything about the BOM, or the D&C (except, of course, sec. 132), let alone the PofGP and Bible. They know next to nothing about the outside world. At different times over the years I have tried to engage them in conversation about this and that, apart from the job or jobs they might be doing for me, and they are almost like children. I took them once on a tour of the BYU campus. At first they were amazed, but their amazement turned to something like fear, and the next thing I knew they were asking to go. It was a long time before they'd even talk to me again about anything other than work.

 

These are people I like and respect, i.e., the ones I have had dealings with; and I think they would say they like and trust me. But at the same time I feel they are very misguided and I feel very bad for their youth, and even worse for their women.

 

​(Probably should get back on topic. This is a thread derailment.)

Edited July 1, 2014 by bdouglas

[The Nehor]

Tell me about it.  This nonsense has been going on for nearly 2000 years.  Get a load of this guy:

 

Two different things. Those who buy into "Visions" and "Left Behind" need it to happen now. John promised those people victory only in death with the mortal and moral victory over their foes coming later when Christ will triumph over all evil. A need to believe in an eventual triumph is good. It means you have a desire for virtue to win. To need to see it in your life.....not so much. To need to believe it so bad that you will believe any charlatan who tries to convince you victory in imminent.....bad.

[sethpayne]

John promised those people victory only in death with the mortal and moral victory over their foes coming later when Christ will triumph over all evil. 

 

Huh?

 

 ³Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of the prophecy, and blessed are those who hear and who keep what is written in it; for the time is near

 

 

(written ~2000 yrs ago)

[The Nehor]

Huh?

 

 

(written ~2000 yrs ago)

 

Jacob said the time of the coming of the Kingdom of God was near before Jesus even came the first time. When God says something is going to happen soon it is best to assume you will be dust before it happens.

[manofthecloth]

I am sure that is what the elders of the church told the inhabitants of Jerusalem when Lehi started raising a ruckus. Rather then put all our trust in a man or men- how about we get close to the Spirit so He can tell us when we are being told truth or pablum?

Finally a glimmer of help in this MDDB echo chamber. Thank you BookofMormonLuvr for the fig leaf. God's covenant people tend to mock anything which does not conform to orthodoxy, but I'm sure that doesn't apply to you. If God wants to send a message through anyone other than our prophet, the covenanters will not be listening, but that won't include you. Spencer doesn't say, 'thus saith the Lord' so his message is probably not a test except in the sense of a wake-up call. Wake up Zion! How does this sound: 'MDDB posters (bDouglas, El Nehor, Juliann etc) can leave the book on the shelf (and please do) but they can't leave it alone'

[BookofMormonLuvr]

A lot of them are actually just about illiterate. They are very smart about construction (I mean the ones I have used) and they are good workers and yes they are smart in their narrow specialty. But education is not emphasized in their culture, in fact it is discouraged, even forbidden in some cases. They (and again, I'm talking about the ones I have had dealings with) don't even know anything about the scriptures they are supposed to believe in. I have never met one of them who knew anything about the BOM, or the D&C (except, of course, sec. 132), let alone the PofGP and Bible. They know next to nothing about the outside world. At different times over the years I have tried to engage them in conversation about this and that, apart from the job or jobs they might be doing for me, and they are almost like children. I took them once on a tour of the BYU campus. At first they were amazed, but their amazement turned to something like fear, and the next thing I knew they were asking to go. It was a long time before they'd even talk to me again about anything other than work.

 

These are people I like and respect, i.e., the ones I have had dealings with; and I think they would say they like and trust me. But at the same time I feel they are very misguided and I feel very bad for their youth, and even worse for their women.

 

​(Probably should get back on topic. This is a thread derailment.)

So FLDS.... you are aware that there are many different groups/churches of polygamists, correct? 

Next time.... be more specific.

[The Nehor]

Finally a glimmer of help in this MDDB echo chamber. Thank you BookofMormonLuvr for the fig leaf. God's covenant people tend to mock anything which does not conform to orthodoxy, but I'm sure that doesn't apply to you. If God wants to send a message through anyone other than our prophet, the covenanters will not be listening, but that won't include you. Spencer doesn't say, 'thus saith the Lord' so his message is probably not a test except in the sense of a wake-up call. Wake up Zion! How does this sound: 'MDDB posters (bDouglas, El Nehor, Juliann etc) can leave the book on the shelf (and please do) but they can't leave it alone'

 

I could leave it alone but old-fashioned book burnings are so much more fun.....plus you can make it a fun social event and invite your friends.

[bdouglas]

So FLDS.... you are aware that there are many different groups/churches of polygamists, correct? 

Next time.... be more specific.

 

Yes, I'm aware of the different groups. I've used people from different groups in different parts of Utah and outside Utah. I was not specific for a reason. I don't want to identify the people I'm talking about. They are people I like and care about and respect.

 

Please start a new thread for a new topic.

[bdouglas]

God's covenant people tend to mock anything which does not conform to orthodoxy....

 

No, manofthecloth, I don't think so. An example of this would be Hugh Nibley. He was hardly orthodox, yet Pres. Hinckley spoke at his funeral (I think he did, at least). He was not only unorthodox in many religious matters, he was unorthodox in matters of local culture and politics. But still you can buy all of his books at any Deseret Bookstore and one day there will probably be a monument to him at BYU.

 

Two other examples come to mind as well, Richard Bushman and Teryl Givens. They are both very active, committed LDS, and they are both unorthodox. But I don't seen members running from them, and posters are not agitating against them on this forum.

Edited July 1, 2014 by bdouglas

[manofthecloth]

Jacob said the time of the coming of the Kingdom of God was near before Jesus even came the first time. When God says something is going to happen soon it is best to assume you will be dust before it happens.

When Christ said watch therefore that ye may be also ready does not sound like an admonition to go ahead and assume you will be dust by the time it happens. People who do that will be of the 10 virgins without the oil. It is better to assume His coming is tomorrow.

[The Nehor]

When Christ said watch therefore that ye may be also ready does not sound like an admonition to go ahead and assume you will be dust by the time it happens. People who do that will be of the 10 virgins without the oil. It is better to assume His coming is tomorrow.

 

It is better to be ready at all times for either the Second Coming or death but if the parable was meant to warn its listeners there to hear it about the Second Coming then it was remarkably ill-timed. One day the generation will come that will meet the return of the Son of God but it may or may not be my generation. Even if I do not live to see it I am under the same covenants and will still be accountable to God. I could in my sleep tonight. I hope not as I do not yet feel ready. Still, time of my death is not my call.

[manofthecloth]

In other words, you are not being forthright in what you claim. The reasons for changing your story when necessary are irrelevant to the fact that you do not value truthful disclosure.  I have a series of questions that will not disclose his identity but will disclose how much you actually know about him. 

 

Is he at least 50 years old?

 

 

No, manofthecloth, I don't think so. An example of this would be Hugh Nibley. He was hardly orthodox, yet Pres. Hinckley spoke at his funeral (I think he did, at least). He was not only unorthodox in many religious matters, he was unorthodox in matters of local culture and politics. But still you can buy all of his books at any Deseret Bookstore and one day there will probably be a monument to him at BYU.

 

Two other examples come to mind as well, Richard Bushman and Teryl Givens. They are both very active, committed LDS, and they are both unorthodox. But I don't seen members running from them, and posters are not agitating against them on this forum.

 

Nibley the ever optimistic apologist for everything pro Joseph Smith and with nary a contrary word about what he revealed? Of course we loved him and love him through his writings to this day because he validates us. Spencer is expendable like Lazarus who sat beside Christ at the feast after being raised. He is mock-able like Abinidai, and a visionary like Lehi. Lazarus was expendable because he was a symbol of disunity among God's covenant people. The council of 70 (plus one) plotted to kill him in the very name of unity. Why, because they feared what he was a symbol of to ordinary people and the council did not want a populist challenge to their authority; otherwise they would be put out of their place. Lazarus was not of the council. Lazarus' personal miracle caused the people to want more miracles. Lazarus gave the people hope of a resurrection and a connection to a personal God. This was the ultimate heresy of all. Jesus could not be God because Messiah was not God! Upon seeing the miracle wrought by Jesus God, half the crowd watching believed and half ran off to tattle to the Council. If Spencer's identity were known Juliann, how would he fare with our own latter-day council which oversees the committee to 'strengthen us?' Would he lose his right to serve in his calling? Would authorities order him to stop selling books? Thankfully Spencer was wise enough to 1) stay anonymous and 2) not tie the publishing of VoG to himself. Spencer gives ordinary latter-day saints a hope for a glorious new era on earth. Spencer would have made a great Lazarus.

 

Did I tell you I liked the book? Is there anyone else on this MDDB who liked the book? Ca'mon. Anyone?

[Calm]

Finally a glimmer of help in this MDDB echo chamber. Thank you BookofMormonLuvr for the fig leaf. God's covenant people tend to mock anything which does not conform to orthodoxy, but I'm sure that doesn't apply to you. If God wants to send a message through anyone other than our prophet, the covenanters will not be listening, but that won't include you. Spencer doesn't say, 'thus saith the Lord' so his message is probably not a test except in the sense of a wake-up call. Wake up Zion! How does this sound: 'MDDB posters (bDouglas, El Nehor, Juliann etc) can leave the book on the shelf (and please do) but they can't leave it alone'

You do realize this is not an LDS only board or even the typical LDS mix here....

Juliann has read the book from cover to cover, took great notes and she is the one who insisted I read it (didn't get my copy today, will try and pick it up tomorrow but probably won't get into till next week given family events....). So you mock someone who took the book seriously enough to study it, keep track of what he was saying well enough to see if he was consistent, compared it to what is in the scriptures etc...so why should anyone bother who intends to read it critically (in the academic sense, not pejoratively) and not just assume from the get go that it is as praiseworthy as you claim? Do you plan on mocking everyone who reads it and doesn't accept it to be what it claims, whatever that might be....metaphor or literal?

[The Nehor]

Nibley the ever optimistic apologist for everything pro Joseph Smith and with nary a contrary word about what he revealed? Of course we loved him and love him through his writings to this day because he validates us. Spencer is expendable like Lazarus who sat beside Christ at the feast after being raised. He is mock-able like Abinidai, and a visionary like Lehi. Lazarus was expendable because he was a symbol of disunity among God's covenant people. The council of 70 (plus one) plotted to kill him in the very name of unity. Why, because they feared what he was a symbol of to ordinary people and the council did not want a populist challenge to their authority; otherwise they would be put out of their place. Lazarus was not of the council. Lazarus' personal miracle caused the people to want more miracles. Lazarus gave the people hope of a resurrection and a connection to a personal God. This was the ultimate heresy of all. Jesus could not be God because Messiah was not God! Upon seeing the miracle wrought by Jesus God, half the crowd watching believed and half ran off to tattle to the Council. If Spencer's identity were known Juliann, how would he fare with our own latter-day council which oversees the committee to 'strengthen us?' Would he lose his right to serve in his calling? Would authorities order him to stop selling books? Thankfully Spencer was wise enough to 1) stay anonymous and 2) not tie the publishing of VoG to himself. Spencer gives ordinary latter-day saints a hope for a glorious new era on earth. Spencer would have made a great Lazarus.

 

Did I tell you I liked the book? Is there anyone else on this MDDB who liked the book? Ca'mon. Anyone?

 

Wait a minute. So he is like Lazarus and Abinadi except he retains his anonymity and does not suffer jeers or die for his beliefs? That's pretty unlike but understandable. I can't say I would be braver. But wait!!!!! Most of the book is about how Spencer has to suffer in life yet when the rubber hits the road he hides behind a veil of anonymity to prevent his own suffering. Nope......not buying it.

 

Also, I think Spencer is rather faithless if he imagines that the Church authorities would take away his calling and shut down his book sales. Either he is not confident about his visions or he believes the church is apostate in which case shouldn't the guy who is (in his own words) second to Christ himself step up and try to purge this evil Abinadi-style? Or lead believers out of apostasy into the wilderness Alma-style? Nah, it is probably easier just to collect royalty checks from book sales.

Edited July 1, 2014 by The Nehor

[Calm]

Why should I take hope from a man who isn't willing to shout from the rooftops his witness and instead hides away from the world? Abinadi was willing to be burned, Joseph was shot and "Spencer" sits in his comfortable home and office content with knowing he has gotten the word out without any cost to himself in embarrassment, inconvenience or censure and no cut in salary from losing patients...now that is someone with commitment to his mission to warn the world.

At least Pontius sacrificed his last days to making sure the message was spread, even when in pain so I've heard. For that I respect him greatly even if I think he invested his efforts in a misguided venture.

I was under the impression he was highly regarded by the 12, isn't one of them a good friend? And if he is going to be working so closely in the future with at least half of them, why in the world would he be at risk from them? Will not God back Spencer up if he has this mission to fulfill? How can he hide his candle and do all this good at the same time?

Edited July 1, 2014 by calmoriah

[manofthecloth]

You do realize this is not an LDS only board or even the typical LDS mix here....

Juliann has read the book from cover to cover, took great notes and she is the one who insisted I read it (didn't get my copy today, will try and pick it up tomorrow but probably won't get into till next week given family events....). So you mock someone who took the book seriously enough to study it, keep track of what he was saying well enough to see if he was consistent, compared it to what is in the scriptures etc...so why should anyone bother who intends to read it critically (in the academic sense, not pejoratively) and not just assume from the get go that it is as praiseworthy as you claim? Do you plan on mocking everyone who reads it and doesn't accept it to be what it claims, whatever that might be....metaphor or literal?

I plan on mocking no one especially you. If Juliann or anyone has a specific problem with the book that is contrary to doctrine I haven't heard or read it yet. 

[Calm]

So this isn't mocking, just you being smug....right.

[manofthecloth]

Wait a minute. So he is like Lazarus and Abinadi except he retains his anonymity and does not suffer jeers or die for his beliefs? That's pretty unlike but understandable. I can't say I would be braver. But wait!!!!! Most of the book is about how Spencer has to suffer in life yet when the rubber hits the road he hides behind a veil of anonymity to prevent his own suffering. Nope......not buying it.

 

Also, I think Spencer is rather faithless if he imagines that the Church authorities would take away his calling and shut down his book sales. Either he is not confident about his visions or he believes the church is apostate in which case shouldn't the guy who is (in his own words) second to Christ himself step up and try to purge this evil Abinadi-style? Or lead believers out of apostasy into the wilderness Alma-style? Nah, it is probably easier just to collect royalty checks from book sales.

Nice try the Nehor. I ask all the Neyhor-sayers again to run this through your mind. If Spencer were anything but anonymous, how would he fare with our current climate of mistrust and chaos. Would he be asked to stop publishing his book? Would he lose his privilege to serve in his ward? 

[manofthecloth]

So this isn't mocking, just you being smug....right.

I am not meek if that's what you are intimating, but to you I apologize for smugness.

[bdouglas]

ManOftheCloth——

 

I thought you told me that Spencer had been given an ultimatum by his bishop or s.p. to disavow the book or else? Am I wrong here? Did I misunderstand you? Or is this correct?

Edited July 1, 2014 by bdouglas

[manofthecloth]

Why should I take hope from a man who isn't willing to shout from the rooftops his witness and instead hides away from the world? Abinadi was willing to be burned, Joseph was shot and "Spencer" sits in his comfortable home and office content with knowing he has gotten the word out without any cost to himself in embarrassment, inconvenience or censure and no cut in salary from losing patients...now that is someone with commitment to his mission to warn the world.

At least Pontius sacrificed his last days to making sure the message was spread, even when in pain so I've heard. For that I respect him greatly even if I think he invested his efforts in a misguided venture.

I was under the impression he was highly regarded by the 12, isn't one of them a good friend? And if he is going to be working so closely in the future with at least half of them, why in the world would he be at risk from them? Will not God back Spencer up if he has this mission to fulfill? How can he hide his candle and do all this good at the same time?

Fortunately we don't really know much about Spencer's comforts nor much about his anguishes, but I am certain he has both. Spencer's personal friend of the Twelve apostles is dead. It was Abiniadi's time to die. Pontius did feel urgency to write down the visions and he testified Spencer is nothing like the concerns expressed on this forum. It was Spencer who insisted all proceeds of the book go to Pontius' widow. The candle of that book of visions is burning bright.

 

P.S. - My mother was opposed to the book until she read it. My sister thinks it's pure fiction and I still love her dearly.

[manofthecloth]

ManOftheCloth——

 

I thought you told me that Spencer had been given an ultimatum by his bishop or s.p. to disavow the book or else? Am I wrong here? Did I misunderstand you? Or is this correct?

I think you said he was bound to be sanctioned if anyone knew his identity.