Calm Posted June 30, 2014 Posted June 30, 2014 Well said. I hope someone like you can find it useful because I can use some help.You did read the last sentence I said, didn't you?
The Nehor Posted June 30, 2014 Posted June 30, 2014 Then I apologize sincerely for being flip. My cousin has a great deal of satire in him because he was given such a large brain organ and it's always irritating to me. One of his pass times is to ruthlessly rip on poor Spencer with spoof after spoof because he considers the book pure nonsense. I think your cousin and I could be good friends.
bdouglas Posted June 30, 2014 Author Posted June 30, 2014 (edited) People can disagree about "Visions", whether it's nonsense or legit. The problem is, manofthecloth, when you claim it is a "sifter". It's the same thing when Spencer says, "I had a NDE experience." OK. I know someone who had a NDE experience, a member of my family, and I believe her, I believe what she said she saw and heard when she died. But the problem is when Spencer claims for himself ridiculous and preposterous honors, or when he says he beheld the funeral of 6 of the current living Twelve, half the MoTabs, all of whom die in the huge earthquake (or whatever it is)--this is where it becomes problematic. Or when Spencer says he beholds, and, lo, "My office in the New Jerusalem is next to Christ's office." Is this contrary to church doctrine? I guess not, but it is certainly contrary to Elder McConkie's talk on "special relationships" with Christ, or the evils of supposing such "special" relationships exist. I think of all I have learned of Christ from a lifetime of reading the scriptures, this magnificent being, one of three central actors in Abraham 3, what Nibley called "this mighty drama"; the being who says, "I am more intelligent than they all"; or, "I am alpha and omega, the beginning and the end"; etc., etc. Well, this is the being Spencer claims to have an office next to in the New Jerusalem! It boggles my brain when I try to comprehend this being myself, but not Spencer; apparently they are old pals. But back to the claim that the book is a "sifter". It's one thing to say, "I believe what 'Visions' has to say. It inspired me to live a better life and to prepare for what may be coming.' But it is another thing to say, "The book 'Visions' is a sifter and a separator. It sifts and separates the sheep from the goats, the wheat from the tares preparatory to the Lord's second coming." Now you have backed off from this claim, or have watered it down considerably in this discussion. But earlier Greg Smith was supposedly "sifted out" because of his review, for example, and I was also because of what I said about it, etc., etc. So this is a problem. Best to lay off the "sifter" bit, don't you think? Why not just say, "It's a book I like. If you don't like it, that's okay, too." ???? Edited June 30, 2014 by bdouglas 2
manofthecloth Posted June 30, 2014 Posted June 30, 2014 I think your cousin and I could be good friends.I recommend you both to be soul mates.
manofthecloth Posted June 30, 2014 Posted June 30, 2014 You did read the last sentence I said, didn't you?Yes I did read it, but I still have a glimmer of hope.
manofthecloth Posted June 30, 2014 Posted June 30, 2014 People can disagree about "Visions", whether it's nonsense or legit. The problem is, manofthecloth, when you claim it is a "sifter". It's the same thing when Spencer says, "I had a NDE experience." OK. I know someone who had a NDE experience, a member of my family, and I believe her, I believe what she said she saw and heard when she died. But the problem is when Spencer claims for himself ridiculous and preposterous honors, or when he says he beheld the funeral of 6 of the current living Twelve, half the MoTabs, all of whom die in the huge earthquake (or whatever it is)--this is where it becomes problematic. Or when Spencer says he beholds, and, lo, "My office in the New Jerusalem is next to Christ's office." Is this contrary to church doctrine? I guess not, but it is certainly contrary to Elder McConkie's talk on "special relationships" with Christ, or the evils of supposing such "special" relationships exist. I think of all I have learned of Christ from a lifetime of reading the scriptures, this magnificent being, one of three central actors in Abraham 3, what Nibley called "this mighty drama"; the being who says, "I am more intelligent than they all"; or, "I am alpha and omega, the beginning and the end"; etc., etc. Well, this is the being Spencer claims to have an office next to in the New Jerusalem! It boggles my brain when I try to comprehend this being myself, but not Spencer; apparently they are old pals. But back to the claim that the book is a "sifter". It's one thing to say, "I believe what 'Visions' has to say. It inspired me to live a better life and to prepare for what may be coming.' But it is another thing to say, "The book 'Visions' is a sifter and a separator. It sifts and separates the sheep from the goats, the wheat from the tares preparatory to the Lord's second coming." Now you have backed off from this claim, or have watered it down considerably in this discussion. But earlier Greg Smith was supposedly "sifted out" because of his review, for example, and I was also because of what I said about it, etc., etc. So this is a problem. Best to lay off the "sifter" bit, don't you think? Why not just say, "It's a book I like. If you don't like it, that's okay, too." ????I will be happy to back off the sifter bit when you stop with the over-the-top hyper-criticism of poor old Spencer who never did you any harm. Hey maybe that's what you are saying. Is this a truce? You won't kick sand into Spencer's face if I won't call the book a sifter. Deal. Done. I liked the book. If you don't like it. Ok.
bdouglas Posted June 30, 2014 Author Posted June 30, 2014 I will be happy to back off the sifter bit when you stop with the over-the-top hyper-criticism of poor old Spencer who never did you any harm. Hey maybe that's what you are saying. Is this a truce? You won't kick sand into Spencer's face if I won't call the book a sifter. Deal. Done. I liked the book. If you don't like it. Ok. It's a deal, manofthecloth! Go in peace, my brother.
rodheadlee Posted June 30, 2014 Posted June 30, 2014 Ok what supposedly happens to my beloved Tahiti?
Calm Posted June 30, 2014 Posted June 30, 2014 I believe he is not too nice to Tahitians for some reason.
rodheadlee Posted June 30, 2014 Posted June 30, 2014 (edited) oops? Edited June 30, 2014 by rodheadlee
rodheadlee Posted June 30, 2014 Posted June 30, 2014 Good morning Cal my quote feature doesn't work unless I use a different browser. The main thing that struck me about this whole thing is the need to survive by the author. We're all going to die, it is appointed to us by birth.
Calm Posted June 30, 2014 Posted June 30, 2014 (edited) The Google books came up with him talking about the Tahitians as originally pure and innocent lowering themselves to the worst forms of debauchery and chil sacrifice etc...the vision sickens him apparently. They are his vision of hell or something...a bit hard to tell from the cites.http://books.google.com/books?id=R4kaE55aTekC&pg=PT79&lpg=PT79&dq=spencer+vision+of+glory+tahiti&source=bl&ots=JhWWqh2yyg&sig=Y5iHA4VPhssll9IYsMwYmxITAik&hl=en&sa=X&ei=ZjWxU8eaJMSKyATT6YGIDA&ved=0CDoQ6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=%20tahiti&f=false Edited June 30, 2014 by calmoriah
rodheadlee Posted June 30, 2014 Posted June 30, 2014 OK, Thanks. I don't really have much to say about it. Except God is not a God of despair. It says that somewhere in the NT, I think.
rodheadlee Posted June 30, 2014 Posted June 30, 2014 Speaking of Visions, has anyone read the Vision, by David Wilkerson? I think it was right on the money and it's been fulfilled. Although I haven't seen a copy since the 1970s so I'm going off of memory.
rodheadlee Posted June 30, 2014 Posted June 30, 2014 (edited) oops again Edited June 30, 2014 by rodheadlee
Tacenda Posted June 30, 2014 Posted June 30, 2014 (edited) I disrespectfully disagree. People who are well-read in Isaiah and actually get it (along with other prophetic scriptures) do not need hucksters with paid seminars to tell them what is coming. They already know.I see this whole movement as motivated by the same crowd that fall for Lehaye's "Left Behind" jargon. People with a need for the dramatic and an obsession with end-times prophecies to give their lives meaning gravitate to this stuff. To not see the Second Coming to them is to have lived in vain. I had a companion like this. Every news story and every political event was proof that the end-times were upon us. Every interpretation he gave was frustrated so I (being the Nehor) mocked him and then he got sanctimonious accused me of mocking sacred things. I hope he grew out of it. The gospel calls us to live it. Fixating on dramatic future events we may never see is pointless. Seeking visions and revelations and understanding is wonderful if you seek them direct from God instead of from paperbacks.I am the Keymaster, not the Gatekeeper.It's possible that a lot more people are like manofcloth and your missionary companion, Nehor. I think it's more inline with my in laws reactions or thinking also. And it's darn near depressing to be around and I've never even read the book. It just seems like people like that can't wait for the end times so they can be in the CK. I wonder if they just want this life to be over, give them the next life, that is promised to be so glorious. In one way Atheists might take their life here a little less "for granted". ETA: I've gone to amazon and read reviews of the book, not too sure my in laws would abide by the book now. I thought it was a book maybe a survivalist would write, my in laws are big on preparing and all are wonderful people. Could there be the possibility this "Spencer" is Christopher Nemelka, the guy that revealed the lost pages of the BoM? Edited June 30, 2014 by Tacenda
The Nehor Posted June 30, 2014 Posted June 30, 2014 It's possible that a lot more people are like manofcloth and your missionary companion, Nehor. I think it's more inline with my in laws reactions or thinking also. And it's darn near depressing to be around and I've never even read the book. It just seems like people like that can't wait for the end times so they can be in the CK. I wonder if they just want this life to be over, give them the next life, that is promised to be so glorious. In one way Atheists might take their life here a little less "for granted". ETA: I've gone to amazon and read reviews of the book, not too sure my in laws would abide by the book now. I thought it was a book maybe a survivalist would write, my in laws are big on preparing and all are wonderful people. Could there be the possibility this "Spencer" is Christopher Nemelka, the guy that revealed the lost pages of the BoM? I sympathize with your inlaws. I too want a much better world. This is not the way to seek it though. Brigham Young's counsel (paraphrased) to those who were eager to die was to get on with it, pointing out there are numerous substances to expedite the matter. He said the sooner they hurry on the better as he and the rest of the Saints have work to do before they are done. I do wonder about people who are so sure they are ready for exaltation that they want to meet the Savior. Either they are righteous beyond my measure or deeply deluded about their own standing. I will be happy to back off the sifter bit when you stop with the over-the-top hyper-criticism of poor old Spencer who never did you any harm. Hey maybe that's what you are saying. Is this a truce? You won't kick sand into Spencer's face if I won't call the book a sifter. Deal. Done. I am going to keep kicking sand in his face. He is not some poor victim. He is a liar and vague talk about metaphors does not diminish this. Liars are almost always featured prominently in the list of those going to hell or as we used to say in my mission: "Wo unto the liar for he shall be THRUST, not peacefully prodded, not passively persuaded, not gently led, but THRUST down to hell." Lying about the gospel aggravates the offense. He is doing spiritual HARM! Being well-meaning does not make that okay. 3
manofthecloth Posted June 30, 2014 Posted June 30, 2014 I am going to keep kicking sand in his face. He is not some poor victim. He is a liar and vague talk about metaphors does not diminish this. Liars are almost always featured prominently in the list of those going to hell or as we used to say in my mission: "Wo unto the liar for he shall be THRUST, not peacefully prodded, not passively persuaded, not gently led, but THRUST down to hell." Lying about the gospel aggravates the offense. He is doing spiritual HARM! Being well-meaning does not make that okay.Wowee wowee. Keep posting because we might be seeing an ancient prophecy getting fulfilled right before our eyes. In the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. Sorry. I don't actually think Mr Nehor is literal fulfillment of 2 Timothy 3, but I'm even more sure that Spencer is not a liar. That's just too over-the-top and will give Mr Nehor nightmares for having written it.
The Nehor Posted June 30, 2014 Posted June 30, 2014 Wowee wowee. Keep posting because we might be seeing an ancient prophecy getting fulfilled right before our eyes. In the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. Sorry. I don't actually think Mr Nehor is literal fulfillment of 2 Timothy 3, but I'm even more sure that Spencer is not a liar. That's just too over-the-top and will give Mr Nehor nightmares for having written it. I find the scriptural warnings against listening to the many false prophets of this dispensation much more relevant to the current topic. 4
manofthecloth Posted June 30, 2014 Posted June 30, 2014 Ok what supposedly happens to my beloved Tahiti?As I remember, Spencer was in Tahiti on a vacation when he received yet another NDE because of illnes. He talked about imagery of the past fallen state of the islanders. It was gruesome like the Aztecs and or the fallen Nephites at the end of the Book of books.
manofthecloth Posted June 30, 2014 Posted June 30, 2014 It's a deal, manofthecloth! Go in peace, my brother.Cousin bDouglas, it's time to turn out the lights for real this time. No one has shown up to give me any cover because there is just no diversity on the MDDB. Mr Nehor has left the battlefield disgusted because I am no match. There is no more to be done. Let's consign this thread to the dustbin of history as soon as possible please.
The Nehor Posted June 30, 2014 Posted June 30, 2014 Cousin bDouglas, it's time to turn out the lights for real this time. No one has shown up to give me any cover because there is just no diversity on the MDDB. Mr Nehor has left the battlefield disgusted because I am no match. There is no more to be done. Let's consign this thread to the dustbin of history as soon as possible please.Still here. Did not leave battlefield. Why do you want the thread gone? Worried about book sales in behalf of your "friend"? 1
juliann Posted June 30, 2014 Posted June 30, 2014 As I remember, Spencer was in Tahiti on a vacation when he received yet another NDE because of illnes. He talked about imagery of the past fallen state of the islanders. It was gruesome like the Aztecs and or the fallen Nephites at the end of the Book of books.And they were brown skinned people. Does everybody get it? The good guys were, you guessed it, white. There is way too much latent racism in this book. The "Asians" are usually the bad guys, people from the not cool countries get there too late to be saved. Spencer has teach them to discard their awful cultural practices and there just isn't enough time. Probably the worst of the worst is that he describes the people living under the ice as being "swarthy as Jews". Everybody get it? 4
manofthecloth Posted June 30, 2014 Posted June 30, 2014 Still here. Did not leave battlefield. Why do you want the thread gone? Worried about book sales in behalf of your "friend"?To clarify, Spencer is a friend of a friend. No not worried at all, the book has done well. I have dropped by Cedar Fort Publishing a time or two and they seem happy about it still. I just simply love latter-day prophecies which draws me to this book. No, it isn't scripture; please don't start on the soapbox. It's more like a novel of what could happen. NDEs are like that. There's a secret that's much bigger than politics, health freedom, science or even the entire history of the human race. That secret remains entirely unacknowledged -- even condemned -- by the scientific community, and yet it is the single most important secret about everything that is. Yes, everything.That secret is simply this: We all survive the physical death of our bodies. Our consciousness lives on, and upon our death in this Earthly dream, our consciousness transcends this physical reality and experiences an existence so amazing and powerful that the human language cannot even begin to describe it. -- Dr Eben Alexander, Proof of Heaven Spencer's imagery is far different than what is found in Alexander's book, but I don't see them in conflict any more than I see Spencer in conflict with scripture or our leaders. I don't think you have any good reason to call him a liar any more than I have a right to declare you a false accuser (a sincere accuser maybe). Spencer says the scenes are close enough to today's reality that it's all bound to happen soon. It feels like a pre-2030 kind of something to me. By the way...when do you think Messiah will come?
bdouglas Posted June 30, 2014 Author Posted June 30, 2014 OK, manofthecloth. But can I say one thing more? You describe those who criticize (or disparage) "Visions" as "false accusers" (see Timothy). But I have to say I disagree. We have brains, and common sense, and we are expected to use them. Every revelation has to be tested. "Prove all things," Paul said. I remember an anecdote in one of Nibley's essays, I think it is in "Zeal Without Knowledge" (as you can tell from some of my posts, I am a Hugh Nibley fan). Someone came to him with some literary production or other, and asked him to read it, but with this caveat: "But you can't criticize it because it was delivered to me by revelation." Real revelation possesses a high degree of excellence. It can be looked at from the right, the left, upside down; it can withstand appraisal, testing; it holds up and has a certain consistency, a certain feel and unique voice. So along comes Spencer with "Visions", and some of us, rather than simply accept Spencer's word that this is all real and true, feel the need to test it, appraise and prove it. But like the literary production in the Nibley anecdote, it cannot withstand such testing and appraisal without falling to pieces. And to label one who does test it and finds it wanting and who therefore offers legitimate criticism a "false accuser" is to misunderstand the intent of Timothy's words. Know what I mean, cousin manofthecloth? 3
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