"visions Of Glory" - Nonsense? Or Legit?

[Calm]

when he is in the emergency room dying and the doc exclaims, "We're losing him! We're losing him!" This just made me laugh. (I think another poster said the same thing.)

The "Grey's Anatomy"moment that contradicts how any actual hospital would handle it.

Don't really see that as a metaphorical storyline either..for what exactly or even remotely?

[bdouglas]

There is one thing the book does, however, and that is it points out a need, a certain hunger among a certain LDS demographic for a more visionary culture, the kind we read about in the scriptures and the kind that existed for the first few decades of the church's existence. They see things like church PR and correlation departments as replacing the visionary culture they long to see return. And so when a book like "Visions" come along, they pounce on it.

[manofthecloth]

I think to suggest that it might be metaphorical is a dodge. There's no way it could be metaphorical. "Pilgrims Progress" is metaphorical. It is plain from the first page. But "Visions" is not metaphorical. It would seem to me someone says "It might be metaphorical" as a dodge; in other words this is what you say when 20 years have passed and Spencer has passed and not a single one of his prophecies have come true.

 

I found the bit in the book about the unnamed apostle praying for Spencer and weeping for him to be ... well it's what the movies call an "unintentional howler". It's not supposed to be funny but it is. Also when he is in the emergency room dying and the doc exclaims, "We're losing him! We're losing him!" This just made me laugh. (I think another poster said the same thing.)

 

Additional note: For the book to be metaphorical, or possibly metaphorical, would require...well, some skill in its composition. But "Visions" is poorly written, even by the standard of pop LDS productions, which is not very high.

Oh. it's just you bDouglas. I'm not worried about it. Did I tell you I liked the book? This thread is really getting old and stale. There's just not enough diversity on the MDDB for anyone to agree with me. Dr Douglas, you need to do something quick to revive this patient. Maybe you could come up with a late confessional about how much you liked the book in secret. That would get things howling for sure.

Edited June 30, 2014 by manofthecloth

[manofthecloth]

There is one thing the book does, however, and that is it points out a need, a certain hunger among a certain LDS demographic for a more visionary culture, the kind we read about in the scriptures and the kind that existed for the first few decades of the church's existence. They see things like church PR and correlation departments as replacing the visionary culture they long to see return. And so when a book like "Visions" come along, they pounce on it.

This has great truth in it.

[bdouglas]

About the 2-digit IQ, or a 2-digit IQ being required to believe the book....

 

I can say for a fact that manofthecloth has more than a 2-digit IQ, in fact he is smarter than I am. I think what it does require, for someone to believe the book, is a lack of common sense. I have noticed this lack of common sense in fundamentalist LDS and also conspiracy theorists. These kind of people can be smart in terms of IQ, but yet there appears to be something else lacking, and this "something else" I label "common sense".

Edited June 30, 2014 by bdouglas

[manofthecloth]

About the 2-digit IQ, or a 2-digit IQ being required to believe the book....

 

I can say for a fact that manofthecloth has more than a 2-digit IQ, in fact he is smarter than I am. I think what it is does require, for someone to believe the book, is a lack of common sense. I have noticed this lack of common sense in fundamentalist LDS and also conspiracy theorists. These kind of people can be smart in terms of IQ, but yet there appears to be something else lacking, and this "something else" I label "common sense".

Why thank ya cuzin, but ho hum here we go again. As I have tried to reason with you in the past, conspiracy theorists need a conspiracy which is why I am content with my double digit IQ (hmm...if my IQ is a 75 that makes yours a 74). I expect less from my fellow man which makes it easier to believe and a heck of a lot easier to be happy. One thing you always say which I do agree upon is there ain't much coming out of the COB lately in the way of action and revelation and with the new oversight committee even less will be forthcoming.  Hey there's that conspiracy you were talking about! You are right. You have always been right. OMGosh.

[bdouglas]

One thing you always say which I do agree upon is there ain't much coming out of the COB lately in the way of action and revelation....

 

Sorry but I have never said this. What I have said is that we get revelation, or revelatory outpourings at the beginning of dispensations and at the end. (Somebody else originally said this but I can't remember who? Was it Nibley?) It is my opinion that we are in a middle place now and that our leaders, or the "COB", are doing just what they're supposed to be doing.

Edited June 30, 2014 by bdouglas

[The Nehor]

Sorry but I have never said this. What I have said is that we get revelation, or revelatory outpourings at the beginning of dispensations and at the end. (Somebody else originally said this but I can't remember who? Was it Nibley?) It is my opinion that we are in a middle place now and that our leaders, or the "COB", are doing just what they're supposed to be doing.

 

I would say that we get PUBLIC revelatory outpourings at the beginning and the end. In the middle (and the beginning and the end for that matter) most revelation is private.

[bdouglas]

I would say that we get PUBLIC revelatory outpourings at the beginning and the end. In the middle (and the beginning and the end for that matter) most revelation is private.

 

That's a good way to put it. I agree.

[juliann]

 One thing you always say which I do agree upon is there ain't much coming out of the COB lately in the way of action and revelation and with the new oversight committee even less will be forthcoming.  Hey there's that conspiracy you were talking about! You are right. You have always been right. OMGosh.

 

I do appreciate your trying to explain why this kind of thing appeals to you.  That seems like a simple explanation...but is quite a slippery slope.  How far do you slide? The church itself is not providing information so God is moving on to more receptive individuals?  Does this imply an apostasy of sorts by the church itself? I think that was what Snuffer was maintaining...and Waterman (?), correct? 

 

Is there a potential convergence between this theology and this book?

[Stone holm]

Well, the only particular I would disagree with you on is your point about not having it both ways.  The Book of Mormon too has it both ways.  We have been given a bit but much much much more was not recorded and even the majority of the record has been withheld.  But this is just a minor nit pick.

 

I think you are probably right but the more I've considered religious experience, generally, I guess I lean towards believing that if a person finds encouragement within a book like this and doesn't cause them to lose sight of life's bigger picture, then all is well.  

 

I think most people read books like this that way.  With curiosity and some interest but it also attracts some who end up calling the book a "sifter."

 

Thanks for sharing.

I am beginning to have concern over the overuse of "sifter" jargon , it frequently gets used to brand anyone who expresses the least amount of misgiving about the direction the Church is going as either an apostate or someone on the verge of it. It usually comes delivered as follows, " Well, you know in the last days even the elect....."

[bdouglas]

I do appreciate your trying to explain why this kind of thing appeals to you.  That seems like a simple explanation...but is quite a slippery slope.  How far do you slide? The church itself is not providing information so God is moving on to more receptive individuals?  Does this imply an apostasy of sorts by the church itself? I think that was what Snuffer was maintaining...and Waterman (?), correct? 

 

Is there a potential convergence between this theology and this book?

 

This gets to the heart of the matter. The biggest proponents of "Visions", I think, are people who believe the church has veered into apostasy. They are not, like Denver S., going to come right out and say it, however. They will say instead, "There is no revelation in the modern church." Or, as I have also heard said, "The GAs are like rockstars. They float along on member adulation, enjoying lifestyles not dissimilar to celebrities, while never giving us any new revelation, or really anything of substance." But they always stop short of saying, "The church is in apostasy."

 

Yes, Spencer is seen as a receptive individual, but he is more than this to the proponents of "Visions". His office is next to Christ's office in the NJ (imagine that!), and he also rescues the Ten Tribes (or something like that). To them, Spencer is a MAJOR latter day figure, like John the Baptist who paved the way for the Christ, only Spencer's job is to pave the way for the 2nd coming of Christ.

Edited June 30, 2014 by bdouglas

[manofthecloth]

I do appreciate your trying to explain why this kind of thing appeals to you.  That seems like a simple explanation...but is quite a slippery slope.  How far do you slide? The church itself is not providing information so God is moving on to more receptive individuals?  Does this imply an apostasy of sorts by the church itself? I think that was what Snuffer was maintaining...and Waterman (?), correct? 

 

Is there a potential convergence between this theology and this book?

If there is to be an apostasy it would be consistent with scripture. If we are Gods's covenant people, a falling away is consistent with past patterns of apostasy. If Visions of Glory is consistent with scripture it wouldn't contradict an apostasy if there will be one all.  To me, Jacob 5:43 is clear enough to say the apostasy of us in the choice part of the vineyard is part and parcel to this end time. From chaos comes re-creation which gives wisdom to why we should allow the wheat to grow with the tares because we can't always tell who is a tare. As I've seen in other posts by you, tolerance is a good thing. So (gulp), yes, I generally think we the church are slipping into apostasy. This is a topsy-turvy world in which we now live. A test. a test, a test is coming! (J. Golden Kimball) Heber C. Kimball has been quoted to say regarding the latter-days. Quite innocently, though, Spencer didn't know about any upcoming apostasy before his words were recorded by Mr. Pontius. As I said, he is a virgin and absolutely does not hang out here on the vaunted MDDB or with Denver Snuffer or any other place like it in the Bloggernacle. However, contrary to TheContrarian (Mr Nehor), 500+ listeners at a paid seminar would probably, to a person, think end times brings apostasy by prophesy and all attending would have been well-read especially in Isaiah. Visions of Glory was a turnaround piece for me because it gave me hope that all wouldn't be lost; that our leaders and church will be rallied by Messiah to usher in the Millennium. My position about apostasy is heretical in the current church culture and is probably an excommunicable offense if I were posting on a forum (like this one). That's one of the problems Bloggernacl-ers have is how to express opinions. Since we only have a few disgruntled viewpoints from which to draw and we don't know what goes on in disciplinary councils, a general muzzle has gradually fallen across the entire church. Are we excommunicated for opinion? For Heresy? For Apostasy? For all three? First we had correlation to water us down then came the oversight committee to enforce it. We can't say we are a unified church with hearts knit together because we can't express our deepest and most personal opinions with one another. If we can't express our thoughts we can't be intimate at church. Thus, all COB-plus content is heavily self-censored. Yeah, I'd say that is a symptom of apostasy. However, my unorthodox view is not the only reason for liking the book

 

Think about it, if Visions of Glory is right, higher level beings can read our thoughts. This is revolutionary! Higher level beings therefore include all Terrestrial level servants of God including the resurrected, the translated, those in the Cities of Enoch and Salem, and Angels. There are many such revelations in the book and it shouldn't be set aside as nonsense. This is why the book is a sifter (at least as the world is presently constituted).

 

Visions of Glory is a great way to peer into the future and hope for the vision it conveys.  How did I do juliann? Did I give you something to tear me to pieces?

[manofthecloth]

To them, Spencer is a MAJOR latter day figure, like John the Baptist who paved the way for the Christ, only Spencer's job is to pave the way for the 2nd coming of Christ.

Speculative spoofy and nonsense Cousin, but a sifter the book is.

[manofthecloth]

I am beginning to have concern over the overuse of "sifter" jargon , it frequently gets used to brand anyone who expresses the least amount of misgiving about the direction the Church is going as either an apostate or someone on the verge of it. It usually comes delivered as follows, " Well, you know in the last days even the elect....."

I like using the term sifter against the gatekeepers who oppose the book because it gets their goat. It's kind of like running past a german shepherd chained up behind a picket fence with a stick in my hand. Some day the dog is going to get me, but look how it started this whole silly discussion. Have we nothing better to do?  

[bdouglas]

Speculative spoofy and nonsense Cousin, but a sifter the book is.

 

Really? Well, what then do you call a person who has an office next to Christ in the New Jerusalem and who rescues the Ten Tribes? I'd say comparing him to John the Baptist would be under-valuing his importance.

[Calm]

"Visions of Glory was a turnaround piece for me because it gave me hope that all wouldn't be lost; that our leaders and church will be rallied by Messiah to usher in the Millennium"

And what in LDS doctrine would lead you not to have such hope?

[manofthecloth]

Really? Well, what then do you call a person who has an office next to Christ in the New Jerusalem and who rescues the Ten Tribes? I'd say comparing him to John the Baptist would be under-valuing his importance.

Turn out the lights great one. No one cares about this legit nonsense book at the MDDB.  Wagging my finger manOfthecloth says, this Spencer subject has cankered your very soul. I'd drop this thread and start a new one about something important like, Why End Timers Have Cankered Their Souls With Thoughts of Apostasy' or 'How an Ultra Orthodox Gatekeeper Wheat Can Stay Sane In End Times With Lunatic Tares In the Bloggernacle.' How about, 'Tare on Wheels of False Hope'

Edited June 30, 2014 by manofthecloth

[Calm]

Still haven't answered his question. I am curious as to the answer.

I do care about the book. A very dear friend was very troubled by reading it, it created fear not hope for her and she is not someone lacking in faith in Christ.

Edited June 30, 2014 by calmoriah

[manofthecloth]

"Visions of Glory was a turnaround piece for me because it gave me hope that all wouldn't be lost; that our leaders and church will be rallied by Messiah to usher in the Millennium"

And what in LDS doctrine would lead you not to have such hope?

I'm not sure where you are driving so I assume you know. On the other hand, where does one find 'doctrine' in the Mormon Church when everything is interpret-able. Luckily we have the oldest and most accurate source for truth in the Holy Ghost but everyone knows even that source is corruptible by interpretation. Follow the prophet? OK, I am. 'Is this good enough?' Hmm..That's why there are so many bloggers in trouble with the oversight committee. One of our modern problems is in trying to slow down the amount of information overload long enough for us to make sense of things. Thus bloggers have a tendency to come up with heresies. 

 

 

Heresy is any provocative belief or theory that is strongly at variance with established beliefs or customs. A heretic is a proponent of such claims or beliefs. Heresy is distinct from both apostasy, which is the explicit renunciation of one’s religion, principles or cause, and blasphemy, which is irreverence toward religion. -- Wikipedia

I am a heretic of the first order because I believe Visions of Glory could be possible. I also am a lover of the White Horse Prophecy which is another heresy. Both VOG and WHP give me hope but I really didn't need either one for hope. I've been taught the principle of Ephraim's survival since the time of my primary days. Why? Because of our interconnected culture. It was my mother who instilled all of the essentials into my brain for survival until the end comes. We talked and talked about "the disaster" and "walking to Missouri" in those long ago days. Later on I saw how scripture didn't contradict what my mother and leaders witnessed to me. That's the problem with 'doctrine' because it shifts and changes as the culture has a mind to understand it. That's also why an oversight committee coupled with correlation is such a bad idea because it stifles free expression. Free expression, whether COB admits it or not, influences our fellow telestial level leaders to act. So, our beloved leaders clarify things for us, but they also can be overly vague and politic with PR statements. This is a complex world and salvation is still hinged on knowledge, lots of it.

[The Nehor]

I am beginning to have concern over the overuse of "sifter" jargon , it frequently gets used to brand anyone who expresses the least amount of misgiving about the direction the Church is going as either an apostate or someone on the verge of it. It usually comes delivered as follows, " Well, you know in the last days even the elect....."

 

But what if you think that does make a person an apostate?

[The Nehor]

However, contrary to TheContrarian (Mr Nehor), 500+ listeners at a paid seminar would probably, to a person, think end times brings apostasy by prophesy and all attending would have been well-read especially in Isaiah. 

 

I disrespectfully disagree. People who are well-read in Isaiah and actually get it (along with other prophetic scriptures) do not need hucksters with paid seminars to tell them what is coming. They already know.

 

I see this whole movement as motivated by the same crowd that fall for Lehaye's "Left Behind" jargon. People with a need for the dramatic and an obsession with end-times prophecies to give their lives meaning gravitate to this stuff. To not see the Second Coming to them is to have lived in vain. I had a companion like this. Every news story and every political event was proof that the end-times were upon us. Every interpretation he gave was frustrated so I (being the Nehor) mocked him and then he got sanctimonious accused me of mocking sacred things. I hope he grew out of it. The gospel calls us to live it. Fixating on dramatic future events we may never see is pointless. Seeking visions and revelations and understanding is wonderful if you seek them direct from God instead of from paperbacks.

 

 

I like using the term sifter against the gatekeepers who oppose the book because it gets their goat. It's kind of like running past a german shepherd chained up behind a picket fence with a stick in my hand. Some day the dog is going to get me, but look how it started this whole silly discussion. Have we nothing better to do?  

 

I am the Keymaster, not the Gatekeeper.

[manofthecloth]

Still haven't answered his question. I am curious as to the answer.

I do care about the book. A very dear friend was very troubled by reading it, it created fear not hope for her and she is not someone lacking in faith in Christ.

Then I apologize sincerely for being flip. My cousin has a great deal of satire in him because he was given such a large brain organ and it's always irritating to me. One of his pass times is to ruthlessly rip on poor Spencer with spoof after spoof because he considers the book pure nonsense. I hate spoof and satire, but I hypocritically engage in snark all the time.

 

The book has several scenes which are very frightening. Truly. The images of Tahiti are chilling like the scenes of the last battle of the Nephites and Jaredites. The visions of evil spirits are also disturbing, but as I applied the visions to a what if it's true narrative in my mind I perceived light in them. If evil spirits can influence me as the book describes, I want to be more aware now of what that might entail. What if it's true that an evil spirit is a lower level being than me. Well that means I can perceive that nasty beings thoughts which are probably what we pick up on when evil enters the room and when we are tempted. I also don't want some nasty evil spirit thing jumping into me for the pleasure of co-receiving whatever I may have succumbed to. It just sounds so vile. On the other hand, translated beings and angels can read my thoughts and they too are often present inviting and enticing me to do good. What a pageant of efforts it must be to try and guide each one of us through to our next life. I loved those ideas and have applied them as often as possible. 

 

I would read the book with her if she insists on reading it. You will know the answers that will put her mind to peace because you will have the Holy Ghost.

Edited June 30, 2014 by manofthecloth

[Calm]

I have already helped her with that. Her husband read it and shared his opinion as well about it. I wii be reading it myself fully in a bit, as opposed to just a number of excerpts (paragraphs and more, not just sentences or phrases here and there) but unless those excerpts have been taken way out of context, I find it highly unlikely I will see it as a book I recommend to anyone for greater light and knowledge.

Edited June 30, 2014 by calmoriah

[manofthecloth]

I have already helped her with that. Her husband read it and shared his opinion as well about it. I wii be reading it myself fully in a bit, as opposed to just a number of excerpts but unless those excerpts have been taken way out of context, I find it highly unlikely I will see it as a book I recommend to anyone for greater light and knowledge.

Well said. I hope someone like you can find it useful because I can use some help.