"visions Of Glory" - Nonsense? Or Legit?

[manofthecloth]

So you know who "Spencer" really is?  (not that I asking for his identity)  How about asking him the question why he doesn't go public with who he is and is instead using an alias so that his story can be checked for accuracy on his claims of what happened to him (having doctor friends who describe his descriptions as just plain silly…among other things)?

I do know who Spencer is. I know his name and know a great deal about him, but I have not met him and am not likely to have the privilege. When the question about anonymity has been asked before, I have only heard he doesn't want any limelight and doesn't want to be anyone's guru. It's not very satisfying, but it's what he says. One of my daytime occupations is to work with Hasidic Jews daily from our Brooklyn, New York office. Our Jewish brothers are constantly working hard to verify our scriptures with scientific evidence, but it's impossible. A leap of faith is taken by them and me for that matter. One of the postings earlier quoted from the widow of John M. Pontius who clearly said the visions are real or metaphor or both. You say it's nonsense and I say "bring it on." You say tomaato and I say tomato.  Who is right?

[manofthecloth]

Have you read Greg Smith's review of the book at FairMormon or Kelly Ogden's review at Meridian Magazine?

Yes I have read both Doctors Smith and Ogden's review and they are entitled to their opinions. Both men are sincere and thoughtful without being offensive. Their's is the kind of dialog I will read and consider.  Did you read the whole book (Visions of Glory)?

[manofthecloth]

I agree. If Spencer's story is valid, then there should be nothing to hide. As long as he continues to demand anonymity without providing evidence, then people are more than justified in being skeptical.

 

If you're going to publish something like this in contradiction to the scriptures that tell us not to broadcast personal revelations, then you need to provide some pretty convincing evidence to justify doing so. So far we have nothing.

I am willing to be taught.  Any contradiction to scripture is a very serious matter that should be explored for deception.

[jwhitlock]

Yes I have read both Doctors Smith and Ogden's review and they are entitled to their opinions. Both men are sincere and thoughtful without being offensive. Their's is the kind of dialog I will read and consider.  Did you read the whole book (Visions of Glory)?

 

Yep. Read it all the way through, along with several other people. We then sat down and discussed it and all came away with the conclusion that there were too many red flags raised by the book to be comfortable with. The anonymous nature of the book and lack of evidence provided don't help.

 

Here's another question for you since you seem to believe in the book. Did you attend the meeting (I think they termed it some kind of family reunion) a while back that was organized by Sister Pontius in which "Spencer" spoke? There was a recording available of it for a while, but they removed it - along with other references to "Spencer" being at the meeting. Do you have any insight about that particular situation?

[jwhitlock]

I am willing to be taught.  Any contradiction to scripture is a very serious matter that should be explored for deception.

 

The counsel by leaders of the church has always been pretty specific about such things, that they are to be kept personal and not made public. John Pontius acknowledges that at the beginning of the book. For this to be made public, there would need to be some pretty convincing evidence presented that justifies overriding such counsel.

 

That evidence doesn't appear to have been provided. "Spencer" might want to remain anonymous, but that's inconsistent with what real prophetic messengers do. The whole anonymous thing just doesn't play well.

[MorningStar]

From what I've heard, this book sounds like a good replacement for syrup of ipecac.

[manofthecloth]

Yep. Read it all the way through, along with several other people. We then sat down and discussed it and all came away with the conclusion that there were too many red flags raised by the book to be comfortable with. The anonymous nature of the book and lack of evidence provided don't help.

 

Here's another question for you since you seem to believe in the book. Did you attend the meeting (I think they termed it some kind of family reunion) a while back that was organized by Sister Pontius in which "Spencer" spoke? There was a recording available of it for a while, but they removed it - along with other references to "Spencer" being at the meeting. Do you have any insight about that particular situation?

No I am sorry to report my involvement is in reading it and knowing one of Spencer's friends only. I liked the book because of its soaring nature and hopeful possibility. I loved especially the descriptions of translated beings and their role in our universe with us. I have been particularly interested in translation for the past 39 years. Can you remember the most objectionable red flag you uncovered?

[jwhitlock]

No I am sorry to report my involvement is in reading it and knowing one of Spencer's friends only. I liked the book because of its soaring nature and hopeful possibility. I loved especially the descriptions of translated beings and their role in our universe with us. I have been particularly interested in translation for the past 39 years. Can you remember the most objectionable red flag you uncovered?

 

One Amazon review phrased it quite well; John Pontius should have quit after the NDE and not gone into the "last days vision". The entire second half of the book was inconsistent, contained Mormon urban legend (lost tribes underground in the Arctic???), and was generally depressing. If the church, it's leaders, and its members don't fare any better than the rest of the world when things hit the fan, then something's wrong. It was very much a "toss everything and build from scratch again" type of narrative, and that's inconsistent with the concept of the church like a stone rolling down a hill until it fills the whole world.

[juliann]

I do know who Spencer is. I know his name and know a great deal about him, but I have not met him and am not likely to have the privilege.

 

And is his first name Thomas?

[manofthecloth]

The counsel by leaders of the church has always been pretty specific about such things, that they are to be kept personal and not made public. John Pontius acknowledges that at the beginning of the book. For this to be made public, there would need to be some pretty convincing evidence presented that justifies overriding such counsel.

 

That evidence doesn't appear to have been provided. "Spencer" might want to remain anonymous, but that's inconsistent with what real prophetic messengers do. The whole anonymous thing just doesn't play well.

I don't think you are wrong about caution and propriety when it comes to sacred experiences. It is your judgement about things jwhitlock receives and shares which makes it right for you through the Holy Ghost. I get what you are saying. When does a withholding of the sacred help and when does it hurt? Is it always right to withhold? "Some things are too sacred to share" unless directed by God to do so. Men and women of our Church learn what to do by prayer and supplication. Paul knew when it was time to share his experience while on the road to Damascus with someone and it was recorded by Luke in Acts chapter 9. Thank you Paul. Spencer presented such an inquiry about sharing to the Lord and he was prompted to share his many visions with us. Why? Because earlier in his life the apostle mentioned prominently told him the time would come for such sharing. None of us can speak for Spencer.

 

If we don't share appropriately with approval by the Spirit we can't strengthen one another and test our own veracity and senses. When we feel revelation from the Holy Ghost it is sure and peaceable, but it needs further consideration by our own ponderings, study and sometimes sharing it with others. The day of Pentacost came and the multitude heard a sound coming suddenly from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind and it filled all the house where they were sitting. Lorenzo Snow shared a similar sacred experience with a personal reference to deity even before he was a prophet. He did it appropriately to strengthen others that they might believe in God and Jesus Christ. Luke said, And they were filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak in other tongues. And they were all amazed, and many were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this? Others mocked, but Peter stood and prophesied saying And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: -- Acts 2 -- Why is it impossible for a man to be prompted to share a sacred experience? Are we in the Last Days or not?

[jwhitlock]

I don't think you are wrong about caution and propriety when it comes to sacred experiences. It is your judgement about things jwhitlock receives and shares which makes it right for you through the Holy Ghost. I get what you are saying. When does a withholding of the sacred help and when does it hurt? Is it always right to withhold? "Some things are too sacred to share" unless directed by God to do so. Men and women of our Church learn what to do by prayer and supplication. Paul knew when it was time to share his experience while on the road to Damascus with someone and it was recorded by Luke in Acts chapter 9. Thank you Paul. Spencer presented such an inquiry about sharing to the Lord and he was prompted to share his many visions with us. Why? Because earlier in his life the apostle mentioned prominently told him the time would come for such sharing. None of us can speak for Spencer.

 

If we don't share appropriately with approval by the Spirit we can't strengthen one another and test our own veracity and senses. When we feel revelation from the Holy Ghost it is sure and peaceable, but it needs further consideration by our own ponderings, study and sometimes sharing it with others. The day of Pentacost came and the multitude heard a sound coming suddenly from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind and it filled all the house where they were sitting. Lorenzo Snow shared a similar sacred experience with a personal reference to deity even before he was a prophet. He did it appropriately to strengthen others that they might believe in God and Jesus Christ. Luke said, And they were filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak in other tongues. And they were all amazed, and many were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this? Others mocked, but Peter stood and prophesied saying And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: -- Acts 2 -- Why is it impossible for a man to be prompted to share a sacred experience? Are we in the Last Days or not?

 

A few observations:

 

I don't believe that the apostle (again, no name, just an anonymous reference) told him that the time would come for him to share it in the book. Review that section again; I think the way he phrased it (according to "Spencer") is that it was to be not shared unless directed otherwise.

 

It's virtually always the best course to withhold things that are personal and sacred from the public.

 

The difference between "Spencer" and all of the examples given from the scriptures is that those individuals were leaders of the church with a specific mandate to testify publicly as directed by the Spirit. Individual members of the church are not under that mandate, and are not authorized to speak for the church. The experience of Hiram Page in the Doctrine and Covenants is worth reviewing in this context, and is probably more applicable.

 

There's a difference between sharing things with individuals close to you as directed by the Spirit, and sharing claimed revelations publicly by writing a book. Again, if someone is going to go public, there needs to be a compelling reason to do it. Otherwise they risk setting themselves up as a light to the church, and members start to look to them instead of the prophets. We now have members "bearing testimony" of "Spencer" and VoG in almost the same category as scripture. That should be troubling in and of itself.

 

One of the reasons the church was restored was to bring order and unity to the Saints in preparing for the Second Coming. The scriptures tell us that the leaders of the church, called as prophets for the whole church, are to be the ones to give us direction in that area. Anything else that people start to dwell on tends to replace the authorized channel that the Lord has set up. "Since the brethren aren't telling us about any visions, we'll have to look for someone else to provide them for us." That's not a good path to take.

 

The key here is public vs. personal. I don't have any problem with individuals sharing sacred experiences in appropriate,private settings with others close to them as directed by the Spirit. I am troubled by someone who would claim such experiences and share them publicly. If the Lord feels it necessary to share such things with the body of the church, they will come through the authorized channels from the prophet at the head of the church. Otherwise, the scriptures only promise that we can receive our own revelations on that level if we purify ourselves before God. I find no support for such grass roots wave of public revelation taking place in the church in competition with our leaders.

[The Nehor]

Neither one. I know him well enough through a favorite father figure friend (a 4F to be sure) of mine. I ask questions about Spencer and get the answers I am passing along to you. My friend has spent a lot of time with Spencer since the publication of the book and it's amazing how much controversy it, Spencer and the author have spawned. It is likely there will be an avalanche of such "revelations" as the years progress toward the opening of the 7th Dispensation and I can't wait to receive them. 

 

Revelation is already running just fine but this is not it and it is not going to come via Amazon or Barnes and Noble. It is coming via prophets and apostles and to individuals....mostly to individuals who take it seriously and don't blab about it to everyone on the planet. As the Book of Alma says "many" receive the mysteries of God but they are under instructions to share only what has been generally revealed until their specific knowledge has been generally revealed.

 

If the Saints would seriously seek out knowledge and could be trusted with it this kind of specious "Chicken Soup Revelation for the Soul" crap would not be so enticing. At the risk of being vulgar it a kind of spiritual masturbation because true spiritual union and knowledge takes effort, devotion, and discretion. I am barely on that road myself but I can tell you that real revelation is much more soul-stirring and fulfilling. It is also much more FUN.

[manofthecloth]

One Amazon review phrased it quite well; John Pontius should have quit after the NDE and not gone into the "last days vision". The entire second half of the book was inconsistent, contained Mormon urban legend (lost tribes underground in the Arctic???), and was generally depressing. If the church, it's leaders, and its members don't fare any better than the rest of the world when things hit the fan, then something's wrong. It was very much a "toss everything and build from scratch again" type of narrative, and that's inconsistent with the concept of the church like a stone rolling down a hill until it fills the whole world.

You sound like you love the Church like I do; like Spencer does. The book was written and published somewhat hastily before Brother Pontius died. Spencer has said he regrets a couple of things at least, but there may be more regrets. He said the loss of his wife was taken (or written in) too lightly and the personal loss of his beloved leaders and fellow members wasn't emphasized enough. I was heartened by the news we could start from scratch. And upon my house shall it begin, and from my house shall it go forth, saith the Lord; First among those among you, saith the Lord, who have professed to know my name and have not known me, and have blasphemed against me in the midst of my house, saith the Lord. -- D&C 112.  Visions of Glory prophesies of a Church that survives it all complete with the presiding authority of Ephraim including our brothers in Manasseh right up to the end, but we are not the only elect of God. The marvelous work and a wonder prophesied by Isaiah has only barely started with us. The really amazing work will be so much larger and more breathtaking than we can see now. Isaiah prophesies that only a tithe of the people on earth will survive Messiah's coming. A quick calculation shows me 700 million people will be in need of shepherds especially under the direction of 144,000 high priests. That sounds like a job for Presiding Ephraim and no Telestial organization fits the role better than our beloved Church. Creation follows chaos. Creation never comes from nothing in the scriptures. The destruction of us will be a test in order that we may qualify for Zion. Redemption is spiritual and begins with repentance for our sins. We are confirmed in God's covenant and delivered after we pass a test. We are elect when we are called by God's name. According the Spencer, God is with us continually until we reach Zion. Let all the nations be gathered together, and let the people be assembled. Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord. I, even I, am the Lord and beside me there is no saviour.  Thus saith the Lord, which maketh a way in the sea, and a path in the mighty waters; I will even make a way in the wilderness and rivers in the desert -- Isaiah 43. And the Lord, even the Savior, shall stand in the midst of his people, and shall reign over all flesh. And they who are in the north countries shall come in remembrance before the Lord; and their prophets shall hear his voice, and shall no longer stay themselves; and they shall smite the rocks, and the ice shall flow down at their presence. And an highway shall be cast up in the mist of the great deep. Their enemies shall become a prey unto them, and in the barren deserts there shall come forth pools of living water; and the parched ground shall no longer be a thirsty land. And they shall bring forth their rich treasures unto the children of Ephraim, my servants. And the boundaries of the everlasting hills shall tremble at their presence. And there shall they fall down and be crowned with glory, even in Zion, by the hands of the servants of the Lord, even the children of Ephraim. And they shall be filled with songs of everlasting joy. -- D&C 133 -- Joseph told us that Enoch's people where somewhere up near the north star. The scriptures teach us many of the lost tribes will flow out of the ice from the north with a great highway. I love the idea we are one of the lost 10 tribes and a mission to reclaim Israel!

 

Without a complete reset there will be no Zion and no Millennium of peace.  it cannot be so.

Edited June 29, 2014 by manofthecloth

[manofthecloth]

And is his first name Thomas?

You know, I shouldn't have been so full of myself to say "I know his name," when truthfully I only think I know his name. My friend is very careful about the actual identity of the man. Since Spencer doesn't want any limelight or attention I won't say any more about my opinions regarding his name.

[The Nehor]

You sound like you love the Church like I do; like Spencer does. The book was written and published somewhat hastily before Brother Pontius died. Spencer has said he regrets a couple of things at least, but there may be more regrets. He said the loss of his wife was taken (or written in) too lightly and the personal loss of his beloved leaders and fellow members wasn't emphasized enough. I was heartened by the news we could start from scratch. And upon my house shall it begin, and from my house shall it go forth, saith the Lord; First among those among you, saith the Lord, who have professed to know my name and have not known me, and have blasphemed against me in the midst of my house, saith the Lord. -- D&C 112.  Visions of Glory prophesies of a Church that survives it all complete with the presiding authority of Ephraim including our brothers in Manasseh right up to the end, but we are not the only elect of God. The marvelous work and a wonder prophesied by Isaiah has only barely started with us. The really amazing work will be so much larger and more breathtaking than we can see now. Isaiah prophesies that only a tithe of the people on earth will survive Messiah's coming. A quick calculation shows me 700 million people will be in need of shepherds especially under the direction of 144,000 high priests. That sounds like a job for Presiding Ephraim and no Telestial organization fits the role better than our beloved Church. Creation follows chaos. Creation never comes from nothing in the scriptures. The destruction of us will be a test in order that we may qualify for Zion. Redemption is spiritual and begins with repentance for our sins. We are confirmed in God's covenant and delivered after we pass a test. We are elect when we are called by God's name. According the Spencer, God is with us continually until we reach Zion. Let all the nations be gathered together, and let the people be assembled. Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord. I, even I, am the Lord and beside me there is no saviour.  Thus saith the Lord, which maketh a way in the sea, and a path in the mighty waters; I will even make a way in the wilderness and rivers in the desert -- Isaiah 43. And the Lord, even the Savior, shall stand in the midst of his people, and shall reign over all flesh. And they who are in the north countries shall come in remembrance before the Lord; and their prophets shall hear his voice, and shall no longer stay themselves; and they shall smite the rocks, and the ice shall flow down at their presence. And an highway shall be cast up in the mist of the great deep. Their enemies shall become a prey unto them, and in the barren deserts there shall come forth pools of living water; and the parched ground shall no longer be a thirsty land. And they shall bring forth their rich treasures unto the children of Ephraim, my servants. And the boundaries of the everlasting hills shall tremble at their presence. And there shall they fall down and be crowned with glory, even in Zion, by the hands of the servants of the Lord, even the children of Ephraim. And they shall be filled with songs of everlasting joy. -- D&C 133 -- Joseph told us that Enoch's people where somewhere up near the north star. The scriptures teach us many of the lost tribes will flow out of the ice from the north with a great highway. I love the idea we are one of the lost 10 tribes and a mission to reclaim Israel!

 

Without a complete reset there will be no Zion and no Millennium of peace.  it cannot be so.

 

Look! It's LDS alphabet soup!

 

 

And there shall they fall down and be crowned with glory, even in Zion, by the hands of the servants of the Lord, even the children of Ephraim. And they shall be filled with songs of everlasting joy. -- D&C 133 -- Joseph told us that Enoch's people where somewhere up near the north star. The scriptures teach us many of the lost tribes will flow out of the ice from the north with a great highway.

 

Interesting, so which tribe of Israel do you think the people of the City of Enoch belong to?

[Calm]

Others mocked, but Peter stood and prophesied saying And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: -- Acts 2 -- Why is it impossible for a man to be prompted to share a sacred experience? Are we in the Last Days or not?

I am not see publishing a book while hiding one's identity and making money off of it in the same way as standing the square and testifying to the world among the mocking face to face in danger at times or Lorenzo Snow's testifying of his experience.

[manofthecloth]

Look! It's LDS alphabet soup!

 

 

 

Interesting, so which tribe of Israel do you think the people of the City of Enoch belong to?

WIth your experience here at the MDDB you probably warned me about something with the alphabet soup statement. As for Enoch well...he predates Israel by quite a long time so I would say he is an outlier regarding the house of Israel, but he saw us all didn't he. He also is in full fellowship with God as is his people and the people of Melchizedek. Since he has already achieved what we are trying to do (reach Zion) he is waiting for us to catch up. Full steam ahead for the 7th Dispensation!

[manofthecloth]

I am not see publishing a book while hiding one's identity and making money off of it in the same way as standing the square and testifying to the world among the mocking face to face in danger at times or Lorenzo Snow's testifying of his experience.

Making money? Spencer makes no money from sales of the book. He made that part of the package when he agreed to have his testimony of the visions written down. All proceeds go to John Pontius' widow.

 

You know, some kind of general visionary outpouring will need to take place to fulfill Peter's prophecy, but what will it be? Lorenzo received his sacred experience long before he was called as an apostle and he definitely shared it with those he felt prompted to share it. Peter's prophecy is an echo of the prophet Joel chapter 2 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit. And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the Lord come. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call.

 

I love the Last Days. How about you?

[jwhitlock]

Without a complete reset there will be no Zion and no Millennium of peace.  it cannot be so.

 

I don't agree that this includes a reset of the church.

[jwhitlock]

Making money? Spencer makes no money from sales of the book. He made that part of the package when he agreed to have his testimony of the visions written down. All proceeds go to John Pontius' widow.

 

How do you know that? Just curious.

[manofthecloth]

I don't agree that this includes a reset of the church.

'Reset of the Church' may be just a matter of semantics. If you mean a reset where the Church is wiped out and then reorganized from scratch, no. In other words we agree about that. However, I like the idea of a reset in the same way our ancestors liked it. From 1856-7 Brigham Young implemented the Reformation which was an attempt to renew spirituality and everyone was rebaptized. When Messiah comes I hope there is another Reformation and I expect chaos so that there may be a rebirth of us all.

 

How do you know that? Just curious.

How do I know Spencer makes no money on the book? 1) my intermediary friend (who is a friend of Spencer) told me and 2) I believe the fact was revealed publicly by Pontius' widow in the Meridian Magazine book review by Dr Ogden (it was in her comment). When Dr. Ogden wrote his review, negative comments against the book dominated the discussion board. Then Sister Pontius made her reply and the tone changed. More people were willing to admit they liked the book. Perhaps a key to liking another human or a book like Visions is start with at least a hope there is something for me to appreciate and glean. This forum started with my cousin's doubtful conclusions and wasn't met by anyone with anything good to say about it. He kept telling me that another thread had started and that I better jump in and see what was going on. I laughed when I saw who actually started the thread. My hope is for someone with some credibility on the MDDB will come forward to rescue me (the double digit IQ man who likes Isaiah) and admit they liked the book Visions for what it is with me. One man's vision of what will be; either literal or metaphorical. If it's literal, I'm a happy man. If it's metaphor I am content. My hope may be entirely naive but hope I will.

[juliann]

You know, I shouldn't have been so full of myself to say "I know his name," when truthfully I only think I know his name. My friend is very careful about the actual identity of the man. Since Spencer doesn't want any limelight or attention I won't say any more about my opinions regarding his name.

 

In other words, you are not being forthright in what you claim. The reasons for changing your story when necessary are irrelevant to the fact that you do not value truthful disclosure.  I have a series of questions that will not disclose his identity but will disclose how much you actually know about him. 

 

Is he at least 50 years old?

[juliann]

He said the loss of his wife was taken (or written in) too lightly and the personal loss of his beloved leaders and fellow members wasn't emphasized enough.

 

 

I think you are missing the point. Would you disclose to anyone, let alone a spouse, that you had a vision of their impending and horrible death?  And then publish their fate? 

[manofthecloth]

In other words, you are not being forthright in what you claim. The reasons for changing your story when necessary are irrelevant to the fact that you do not value truthful disclosure.  I have a series of questions that will not disclose his identity but will disclose how much you actually know about him. 

 

Is he at least 50 years old?

I see your point and I will be more careful next time.  

 

I think you are missing the point. Would you disclose to anyone, let alone a spouse, that you had a vision of their impending and horrible death?  And then publish their fate? 

I don't see your point here because the disclosure could also indicate a truthful desire to tell the vision as seen. Much of the narrative centered around his spouse and his struggles to regain health time after time and his journey back to his home on foot. He told my friend he didn't handle it well and couldn't react after the printing started. 

[bdouglas]

One man's vision of what will be; either literal or metaphorical. If it's literal, I'm a happy man. If it's metaphor I am content. My hope may be entirely naive but hope I will.

 

I think to suggest that it might be metaphorical is a dodge. There's no way it could be metaphorical. "Pilgrims Progress" is metaphorical. It is plain from the first page. But "Visions" is not metaphorical. It would seem to me someone says "It might be metaphorical" as a dodge; in other words this is what you say when 20 years have passed and Spencer has passed and not a single one of his prophecies have come true.

 

I found the bit in the book about the unnamed apostle praying for Spencer and weeping for him to be ... well it's what the movies call an "unintentional howler". It's not supposed to be funny but it is. Also when he is in the emergency room dying and the doc exclaims, "We're losing him! We're losing him!" This just made me laugh. (I think another poster said the same thing.)

 

Additional note: For the book to be metaphorical, or possibly metaphorical, would require...well, some skill in its composition. But "Visions" is poorly written, even by the standard of pop LDS productions, which is not very high.

Edited June 29, 2014 by bdouglas