Children Who Die Without The Gospel ?

[Duncan]

in section 137 of the Doctrine and Covenants we read, 

 

10 "And I also beheld that all children who die before they arrive at the years of accountability are saved in the celestial kingdom of heaven."

 

I had an Aunt who was still born and died within a day or so of time. According to this verse it sounds like she'll automatically be exalted in the Celestial Kingdom. But will she? I know that she and the millions other children who die before the age of 8 will be given the chance to hear the gospel but what if they don't accept it? Does 137:10 override their agency?

[Rob Osborn]

in section 137 of the Doctrine and Covenants we read, 

 

10 "

And I also beheld that all children who die before they arrive at the years of accountability are saved in the celestial kingdom of heaven."

 

I had an Aunt who was still born and died within a day or so of time. According to this verse it sounds like she'll automatically be exalted in the Celestial Kingdom. But will she? I know that she and the millions other children who die before the age of 8 will be given the chance to hear the gospel but what if they don't accept it? Does 137:10 override their agency?

My own understanding of this is that children are automatically taken back to heaven upon death but will have the opportunity during the millennium to grow and accept the gospel along with all other temple blessings including marriage.

[The Nehor]

Through the foreknowledge of God all children who die young die young because they either will accept the gospel or do not need it except for the resurrection and the unconditional portion of the atonement that covers sins of non-accountability. They probably do not need mortal life other then entering it and dying but that is speculation.

[Nofear]

in section 137 of the Doctrine and Covenants we read, 

 

10 "And I also beheld that all children who die before they arrive at the years of accountability are saved in the celestial kingdom of heaven."

 

I had an Aunt who was still born and died within a day or so of time. According to this verse it sounds like she'll automatically be exalted in the Celestial Kingdom. But will she? I know that she and the millions other children who die before the age of 8 will be given the chance to hear the gospel but what if they don't accept it? Does 137:10 override their agency?

 

I suppose if somebody wanted to reject a higher kingdom for a lower one they could. Pre-accountability death or not, the child will have to acquire the attributes requisite all those who would possess it. Some demon-spawn adult/child isn't going to be running around there. The pre-8 children who were denied the experiences of mortality to grow that we have will be given (and use) opportunities to grow and develop the requisite celestial attributes. Nor do I imagine that the age 8 is a hard cut off but more of a hard "start". I bet some 9 year olds, etc., will also be given some leeway to prove themselves (though there may be some 9 year olds who fail).

[Storm Rider]

I think you are creating an impossible situation. These individuals will not live by faith, but by sure knowledge. In such a situation why would any daughter or son of God ever choose anything but to dwell in his presence?  

[Duncan]

I think you are creating an impossible situation. These individuals will not live by faith, but by sure knowledge. In such a situation why would any daughter or son of God ever choose anything but to dwell in his presence?  

 

 

i dunno, it seems to fly in the face of what else we know, other folks who die without the gospel will have a chance to accept it or reject, why would God make someone almost like a robot like here I know you'll accept the Gospel and you're good so just go to earth and get a body and then you'll die and then you're a cinch for the Celestial kingdom. I can think of a host of people who were born in mortality  accepted the gospel and lived a good a life trying to be true, what makes the two groups any different? I don't know but why would my Aunt be more righteous then say Hyrum Smith or Noah or Josepg Fielding Smith, it seems they get a rush job, where is their agency like everyone else's?

[halconero]

I think one key part of understanding our pre-mortal life is comprehending that the Atonement was already in effect there. Revelations teaches us that we overcame Satan in the War in Heaven through our testimonies and the blood of the Lamb.

My MTC teacher taught that there is no scripture inferring that we were incapable of sin before this life, but rather the opposite. We know for sure that Lucifer and his hosts sinned, and were therefore cast out of the presence of God. It is entirely possible that we erred at times up above. This does not mean that we enter the world in a sinful state, like the original sin, but that we possibly enter the world in not only a clean and innocent state, but a purifiED state as well, wherein we have already taken upon ourselves a measure of the Atonement of Christ. Entering the world in a redeemed state allows those who die before reaching the age of accountability to return to the Father.

There are Restoration-specific scriptures that refer to Christ as the redeemer of little children. I don't know if that soley refers to redemption from physical death, or to redeeming their spirits prior to entering mortality. These last two paragraphs are mostly inference and speculation, so feel free to correct me. What I do believe to be doctrine is the first: knowing that Christ's atonement was in effect, and played a role in our premortal lives.

[The Nehor]

i dunno, it seems to fly in the face of what else we know, other folks who die without the gospel will have a chance to accept it or reject, why would God make someone almost like a robot like here I know you'll accept the Gospel and you're good so just go to earth and get a body and then you'll die and then you're a cinch for the Celestial kingdom. I can think of a host of people who were born in mortality  accepted the gospel and lived a good a life trying to be true, what makes the two groups any different? I don't know but why would my Aunt be more righteous then say Hyrum Smith or Noah or Josepg Fielding Smith, it seems they get a rush job, where is their agency like everyone else's?

 

It could be that they simply did not need this experience. Does that make them more righteous then everyone who lives longer? Maybe, maybe not. We do know that the most righteous of all men from the PreMortal world lived longer (Jesus) and Michael also came here. It could be that some who could have skipped it opted for the full experience to help others or just for the experience itself. It might be that there is some tiny flaw in the character of many of the best of us that requires a longer mortality to weed out.

 

Agency (as others have said) is not only available here.

[Duncan]

It could be that they simply did not need this experience. Does that make them more righteous then everyone who lives longer? Maybe, maybe not. We do know that the most righteous of all men from the PreMortal world lived longer (Jesus) and Michael also came here. It could be that some who could have skipped it opted for the full experience to help others or just for the experience itself. It might be that there is some tiny flaw in the character of many of the best of us that requires a longer mortality to weed out.

 

Agency (as others have said) is not only available here.

 

 

that's good, maybe that verse is referring to the idea that unbaptized or still born kids can attain the celestial kingdom even though they never had a chance in mortality, provided they use their agency like everyone else

Edited January 15, 2014 by Duncan

[Rob Osborn]

I am of the firm belief that these children will indeed grow up during the millennium and need baptism and their endowment. They too will have the opportunity to choose Satan or God. Not sure why D&C 137 is written like it is because it seems pretty inconsistent to me. Even D&C section 76 has its issues.

[JLHPROF]

in section 137 of the Doctrine and Covenants we read, 

 

10 "And I also beheld that all children who die before they arrive at the years of accountability are saved in the celestial kingdom of heaven."

 

I had an Aunt who was still born and died within a day or so of time. According to this verse it sounds like she'll automatically be exalted in the Celestial Kingdom. But will she? I know that she and the millions other children who die before the age of 8 will be given the chance to hear the gospel but what if they don't accept it? Does 137:10 override their agency?

 

Don't confused "saved" in the Celestial Kingdom with "exalted" in the Celestial Kingdom.  I personally believe that these children died completely innocently and so are worthy to enter the kingdom.  If we consider our own entrance into the Kingdom it comes from repenting and having faith and witnessing to that fact through baptism.  These children have nothing to repent of, are taken straight back to God so faith becomes a different issue, and only the witnessing ordinance needs to be done.  We have the whole millennium to take care of that.

 

But I also believe that the rules for exaltation (endowent, eternal marriage etc) are inviolable and at some point they will have to do a work necessary to exaltation.  And I'm not 100% sure how that will play out.  They were too pure and achieved much in the premortal life that they had little need for this world.  But something will still need to happen to receive exaltation.

[CV75]

in section 137 of the Doctrine and Covenants we read, 

 

10 "And I also beheld that all children who die before they arrive at the years of accountability are saved in the celestial kingdom of heaven."

I think there is room to beleive that, if a child needed to survive beyond the age of accountability to fulfill whatever arrangement he had with God, the Lord would intervene to provide a means for him to live a fuller life. Otherwise, I beleive the mortal sojourn of highly advanced pre-mortal spirits in virtuall all cases is designed to be either less than 8 years or in a non-accountable state.

 

However, since that idea might place God too much into the details for some people, I also think there is room to beleive that they will be resurrected into a Millennial setting where they will be tested in such a way as to land them into whatever kingdom they are willing to receive. This would be in the same sense that all God's children are all already saved in the celestial kingdom by virtue of the Atonement, yet not everyone will choose to qualify to dwell there. The point is, children are not unjustly damned (as Mormon points out)--but neither are any of the rest of us. So I also think both can be going on.

[Buzzard]

The topic is kind of personal to me, as we raised a profoundly autistic child to adulthood. He passed ten years ago as a young man. His membership record read, in the space where most of us would have the notation "Member", "Elder", etc.., "Not Accountable". Since he never developed the ability to choose right over wrong, he obviously wasn't baptized. He wouldn't have sat still for being dunked, even if we would have tried. 

After his death, a couple of people suggested we get his temple work done. We were not sure if this was appropriate, so on one trip to the temple, actually sought out the temple president and asked him what the best course of action would be. 

After determining that he had been born in the Covenant, he told us that to go and do his work would be mocking God's promises and blessings, that our son was already in a state of glory, and he needed no assistance from us to achieve his exaltation. (His words).

So you can take it for what it's worth, but our minds were placed at ease, and I have no doubt that when I see my son again, he will be in better shape than highly imperfect I, eternally speaking. 

Edited January 15, 2014 by Buzzard

[JAHS]

Joseph Smith taught that the infant child that was laid away in death would come up in the resurrection as a child; and, pointing to the mother of a lifeless child, he said to her: “You will have the joy, the pleasure, and satisfaction of nurturing this child, after its resurrection, until it reaches the full stature of its spirit.” (Gospel Doctrine, 455-56)

 

Joseph Smith asked the question, "Why is it that infants, innocent children, are taken away from us, especially those that seem to be the most intelligent and interesting?"
His answer was;
"The strongest reasons that present themselves to my mind are these: This world is a very wicked world; and it is a proverb that the 'world grows weaker and wiser'; if that is the case, the world grows more wicked and corrupt. In the earlier ages of the world a righteous man, and a man of God and of intelligence, had a better chance to do good, to be believed and received than at the present day; but in these days such a man is opposed and persecuted by most of the inhabitants of the earth, and he has much sorrow to pass through here.
The Lord takes many away even in infancy, that they may escape the envy of man, and the sorrows and evils of this present world; they were too pure, too lovely, to live on earth; therefore, if rightly considered, instead of mourning we have reason to rejoice as they are delivered from evil, and we shall soon have them again. The only difference between the old and young dying is, one lives longer in heaven and eternal light and glory than the other, and is freed a little sooner from this miserable wicked world. Notwithstanding all this glory, we for a moment lose sight of it, and mourn the loss, but we do not mourn as those without hope." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 196-197)

[cinepro]

in section 137 of the Doctrine and Covenants we read, 

 

10 "And I also beheld that all children who die before they arrive at the years of accountability are saved in the celestial kingdom of heaven."

 

I had an Aunt who was still born and died within a day or so of time. According to this verse it sounds like she'll automatically be exalted in the Celestial Kingdom. But will she? I know that she and the millions other children who die before the age of 8 will be given the chance to hear the gospel but what if they don't accept it? Does 137:10 override their agency?

 

 

Section 137 says what it says, pretty clearly and in plain English.  If it's right, then yes, your Aunt will be in the Celestial Kingdom. 

 

If there is some other way to understand the words "all", "children" and "saved", or Joseph Smith was wrong or there is some other problem with the verse, then she might not be.

[SeekingUnderstanding]

Section 137 says what it says, pretty clearly and in plain English.  If it's right, then yes, your Aunt will be in the Celestial Kingdom. 

 

If there is some other way to understand the words "all", "children" and "saved", or Joseph Smith was wrong or there is some other problem with the verse, then she might not be.

For a visual, consider the following chart:

http://sciencebysteve.net/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/slide13.jpg

The blue area represents preaccountability deaths. This assumes that about 1/4 of the worlds population has died before the age of 8 (conservative estimate of historic child mortality), The other bar (looks reddish to me) represents those in the Lords church (assuming an average 0.2% membership rate - similar to what we have now).

 

For some idea of what the implications of this doctrine are see this post (http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/12/01/its-raining-men-celestial-demographics-again/) which is a rehash of an old dialogue article from the 80's found here: http://content.lib.utah.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/dialogue/id/14487 .

Edited January 15, 2014 by SeekingUnderstanding

[Rob Osborn]

Our whole paradigm of heaven is screwed up anyway.

[CV75]

Our whole paradigm of heaven is screwed up anyway.

Speak for yourself!

[The Nehor]

For a visual, consider the following chart:

http://sciencebysteve.net/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/slide13.jpg

The blue area represents preaccountability deaths. This assumes that about 1/4 of the worlds population has died before the age of 8 (conservative estimate of historic child mortality), The other bar (looks reddish to me) represents those in the Lords church (assuming an average 0.2% membership rate - similar to what we have now).

 

For some idea of what the implications of this doctrine are see this post (http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/12/01/its-raining-men-celestial-demographics-again/) which is a rehash of an old dialogue article from the 80's found here: http://content.lib.utah.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/dialogue/id/14487 .

I think you are being optimistic about every member of the Church making it. Your slice is too large.

[SeekingUnderstanding]

I think you are being optimistic about every member of the Church making it. Your slice is too large.

I was trying to be generous in making the red slice as big as possible.

[Freedom]

Some church leaders are of the opinion that these children will be raised during the millennium. The reality is, the doctrines of the kingdom are for those who are accountable so little has been revealed about those who are not. Just as we know concerning this earth, we also only know concerning the expectations of those who are accountable. There are just too many exceptions to the rule and it would just sidetrack us. What I tell an 8 year old about married life is far different from what I tell my married daughter. We are spiritual children, we have been given enough information for our spiritual maturity. 

[djones]

Dang, that link about the demographics of the celestial kingdom was very eye opening. I never thought about it that way. I feel like a minority now and I'm wishing I would have been better in the pre-earth life. So it appears that the bulk of heaven will be filled with spirits who died before the age of accountability. Very interesting.

[The Nehor]

Dang, that link about the demographics of the celestial kingdom was very eye opening. I never thought about it that way. I feel like a minority now and I'm wishing I would have been better in the pre-earth life. So it appears that the bulk of heaven will be filled with spirits who died before the age of accountability. Very interesting.

 

Note that this is just one interpretation. It would be fitting with other gospel principles if some chose to live longer in order to aid others. It would seem like a lesser version of the Atonement, risking danger and pain to aid others. It could be that you were good in PreMortality and chose to come anyways. You may want to beat yourself up later for getting yourself into this fix.

[Calm]

Dang, that link about the demographics of the celestial kingdom was very eye opening. I never thought about it that way. I feel like a minority now and I'm wishing I would have been better in the pre-earth life. So it appears that the bulk of heaven will be filled with spirits who died before the age of accountability. Very interesting.

And yet Christ talked about the great ones who were with him in the creation and named those we know were born into mortality.  I don't think one can assume anything about one's previous premortal status based on what is happening to others.

 

I also have a pet theory/pure speculation that one of the reasons why so many don't have to live a mortal life is that in paradise/spirit prison we have what are essentially group therapy sessions where those who did live through mortality share their lives in a way it will be as meaningful as if the others have lived them their experiences with those who didn't as well as those who did but had other experiences and didn't have the chance to learn experience a particular principle or something else that might influence their choice of what to accept from God and what type of life to live in eternity.  

 

I also think we all may be watching what is going on both before we are born and afterwards...after all it is a reality show over and above all others and if people can get tied up in the ridiculous versions we have now, imagine being able to watch life as we know it unfold from the earliest moment it existed to the last second before Christ comes and again and all in between and maybe all beyond.  We believe that God can see all of this happening, why wouldn't he share it with his children?  In a way, we attempt to do the same thing with worldwide 24/7 news....just that we don't always realize the lead story might be the kid helping a friend with his homework and the story of world leaders once again playing mind games with each other is such old stuff it deserves page 8 bottom right, few paragraphs type of thing (what is the equivalent of no headline story in TV news?)  Just as we would expect to be able to learn from watching news and others' lives in our mortal state, surely that must occur in our nonmortal states...probably in a much greater degree with our spirits being a greater contributor to sharing of information.

 

I don't see how we could make a decision meaningful for eternity based on our very limited mortal experience, but I can see the sum total of human mortal experience being what is necessary to truly understand the potential of eternity....but of course the only way that can happen is if we 'put' our experiences all together and then have some sort of evaluation session.

 

Does this make sense?

 

Either that or mortality isn't all that meaningful for the vast majority of people who lived very limited lives due to limited resources, etc. and I just don't see that as likely.  I think God is too capable of a Father and he could have speeded up the progression of civilization, etc.

 

So I don't see us living lives in order to get all the lessons we didn't manage to learn in the Preexistence.  I think we live life so we learn enough to facilitate the greater learning opportunity that will come much later both for ourselves and for others.  Perhaps those who were chosen to live fully lives happen to be better communicators or people who are more aware of their surroundings or have other gifts that create a more effective teaching environment once all that information and experience is gathered together into one communal experience which we then go through together with our eyes opened and each of us helps the others figure out what we were experiencing and learning in this moment and then we get to choose...is this really important or not...and then we go on...and bit by bit we figure out the whole of the mortal experience and lay that on the altar in front of God as our gift of obedience to him....all that we are is his to do with as he will, a free will, full knowledge gift, not just one we weren't aware of the consequences of but just did because we were commanded to and had faith in the Lord.

 

I see candidates for Outer Darkness likely being the only ones refusing to participate...thus they are robbing and damaging and contributing to all the ills of humanity because they refuse to help others process not only the good in their lives, but the bad so they can heal and move on....another reason for them to have chosen OD....they don't want to progress, they don't want to contribute....if it isn't done their way, they will not give it validity in any way through their participation.

Edited January 17, 2014 by calmoriah