"miraculous" Anti Conversion Stories

[JLHPROF]

I guess this pretty much eradicates receiving a testimony of the BoM by getting a "good feeling" about it then doesn't it......... 

 

Yes that is exactly what Mormons do. They operate on what they interpret as good feelings. Every religion tries to corner the market on "feelings" It is  a poor way to get any reliable answers. 

 

I do not see how one can claim that feelings to join the Mormon church are somehow better than feelings to leave the church. They all come from the same place.

 

That is exactly right.  People in the church often forget one of Joseph Smith's most interesting teachings.  "The Holy Ghost has NO effect other than pure intelligence".  TPJS 149.  No effect except that stroke of knowledge, communication, confirmation.

 

 

The Holy Ghost has no other effect than pure intelligence. It is more powerful in expanding the mind, enlightening the understanding, and storing the intellect with present knowledge, of a man who is of the literal seed of Abraham, than one that is a Gentile, though it may not have half as much visible effect upon the body; for as the Holy Ghost falls upon one of the literal seed of Abraham, it is calm and serene; and his whole soul and body are only exercised by the pure spirit of intelligence;

 

All this talk of warm fuzzy feelings, burnings, rapturous joy, are not how the Holy Ghost operates.  The Holy Ghost witnesses to truth, so if no information is communicated or confirmed it wasn't the Holy Ghost.  Just because you feel good about something doesn't imply a witness - whether for conversion or anti-conversion.

[Garden Girl]

 

All this talk of warm fuzzy feelings, burnings, rapturous joy, are not how the Holy Ghost operates.  The Holy Ghost witnesses to truth, so if no information is communicated or confirmed it wasn't the Holy Ghost.  Just because you feel good about something doesn't imply a witness - whether for conversion or anti-conversion.

 

Hello JLHPROF...

I have to disagree with this part of your statement in the sense that I have felt the burning in the bosom and an absolute joy on numerous occasions...  yes, there were also the words that came to my heart and mind that what I was hearing/reading was true... for instance when as a 17 year old seminary student when I accepted Moroni's challenge and prayed with sincere intent to know if the BoM was true, I received such a confirmation accompanied by a burning in the bosom that started at my navel and rose upward like a crescendo, until I was filled with an intense sense of joy accompanied by a convicton of truth in my heart and mind .  I believe I received such a strong witness because Heavenly Father knew I would need such a witness by the Spirit that would last me through the coming years when I was inactive.  I never could forget or deny that witness... and I had no desire to attend any other Church... and finally years later I reactivated... and here I am...  I guess the important thing is that I received information along with the "feelings."

 

GG

[Kenngo1969]

Well let's seeeeee.........He could have said, "Park your butt in front of your TV and watch football on Sunday", but he didn't did he.....

 

So why do you suppose he chose the word "Pastor"?

 

Not trying to imply anything here.........I'm just sayin'.........

I chose the word "Pastor" because I was under the impression we were discussing why former Mormons leave the faith for other religions (specifically other Christian religions), many of whose congregations are headed by Pastors.  Substitute the title of any religious leader you wish.  I think you're simply determined to take offense, whether any was intended or not.

[Kenngo1969]

Personally, I'd be rather surprised if Kenngo subscribed to that perspective of Christians outside the church. Five Solas has a fairly ingrained anti-Mormon background, and has a habit of nit-picking at things like this to tear down the church and its members. I'd be more inclined to fault FS's perspective of LDS church members, than I would be to fault Kenngo's perspective of non-LDS.

 

Nevertheless, I'll let Kenngo clarify things himself, if he feels like it. I simply saw it as being rather narrowly applied to the attitudes of some who leave the church, and not more broadly applicable on his part.

 

Being LDS on the east coast, I can say fairly confidently that Mormons recognize that members of other churches exist across the same spectrum as we do in our church. There are some on both sides that just sit in the pews on Sunday (or even not that often), just as there are those who are very actively involved on both sides. I would posit that it is a bit harder to get away with not doing anything in the LDS church, than it is in one of the big mega-church fellowships that exist in our neck of the woods, but that's just from my experience in talking with people I know outside the church. The church does tend to expect some level of involvement from its members, but that is in no way unique to us.

 

On the other hand, Five Solas didn't hesitate to make another stereotypical attack against Mormons by claiming that "an awful lot of LDS think" the way he claims Kenngo does. I reject that particular barb out of hand.

 

BTW, hope you had a great Christmas!

 

This.  Thanks.

[Five Solas]

Hey Erik:

 

Interesting how you want to hammer Kenngo based on your interpretation of his comments when he clarifies them in post #43. You seem intent on nailing him to the wall for inferring (according to you) that all Christians are lazy and just sit in the pews. Yet you have absolutely no problem doing your own stereotyping of Mormons, telling us that this attitude is prevalent among them. Further, you seem from other threads to subscribe to other anti-Mormon stereotypes concerning Mormons, including claims that Mormons are not Christians.

 

Wonder how you handle that kind of an inconsistent attitude.

Hey jwitlock--

 

If by "hammer Kenngo" you mean I'd be willing to buy him a drink or two (or maybe even three)--color me guilty. 

;0)

 

But if you mean hammer as in nails/crucify--count me out.  His posts on this thread have gotten him into a sticky wicket, no doubt, but he & I have engaged before (and on one notable occasion, I had to make public apology--my posting history is here for all to see).  He may have a clear & concise answer, and I'm sure we won't have too long to wait. 

 

Regarding "subscribe to anti-Mormon stereotypes"--you do me a disservice.  Please know I'm reluctant to venture into topics where I don't have first-hand experience.  I was active LDS for most of my life--and I've no need of anyone's subscription service to generate my thoughts. 

 

--Erik

[Storm Rider]

So I regularly read realclearreligion.org, and recently read an article that was linked to Christianity Today about a woman named Lynn Wilder whose entire family left the Church when she said her son who came back from his mission said he read the bible and told the family that Mormonism wasn't true. From what I gather Lynn claimed to have a "born again" experience which implied that she needed Jesus and nothing else. Has anybody heard of this story? I guess I'm having a hard time with confusion because I know of or have read numerous experiences of people led to the Church in miraculous or otherwise clear ways. Because of this, I'm wondering what everyone's perspective is. Why do so many sincere people get so many clear, differing answers?

 

Hello Bob,

 

This topic comes up with some regularity from several different people and is contemplated by a great deal more. I believe there is one Heavenly Father, One Son, and One Holy Spirit - the Spirit of Truth reveals all truth to all who seek. However, the trick is that as the Gospel teaches the Lord gives the degree of truth that we are able to live and we are judged by the truths given and lived.

 

I do think that some people misunderstand what is being revealed by the Holy Spirit or at least they use their experience to lead them wherever they wish to go. For example, I am surprised by some Latter-day Saints that have "found" Jesus. This always, always puzzles me and confuses me. Exactly who did they think they were worshiping in the Church?  Ever since I was I boy I worshiped and loved my Heavenly Father and I had a deep, abiding gratitude to the Savior for his gift of the Atonement that allowed me to return to my Father. How did others miss this?  If a hardheaded, none-too-bright boy could understand the message, how did they miss it?  This continues to confuse me.

 

Just as many of you have done, I have read the Bible countless times. It is a book of unending revelation because it opens to the doors to our Father for those who peacefully are open to the Spirit. I find that a reading of the entire Bible to lead to a wonderful message of the Gospel of the Savior and that message is found within the Church. As much truth as is found within Orthodoxy or Catholicism there are pieces, vital pieces, missing that lead to Exaltation.  

 

I am biased. I have a much more difficult time understanding a conversion to Evangelicalism than to almost anything else. I acknowledge there are truths there, but I find a deeper appreciation of Orthodoxy and Catholicism. I need to be more understanding of those that find a home there, but it is difficult for me personally. Where we have those within the Church and our critics who accuse us of serving too much milk, I find Evangelicalism to be so watered down as to be nearly impossible to called milk at all.

 

People have spiritual experiences. I can only claim to understand my own.  I may be frustrated with some leaders and some periods of the history, but I also know that I am a Latter-day Saint because of the direct guidance of the Holy Spirit and my willingness to be a disciple of Jesus Christ. This willingness to be a disciple also guides me to accept other disciples of Christ regardless of where they worship. If I can be an instrument in our Father's hands to heal the wounded heart by sharing the fullness of the gospel with them, I will. However, if they are at peace I can rejoice with them in the knowledge that the Savior is guiding us both. 

[Palerider]

You don't understand if I accept that the COJCOLDS is not true you have about wiped out all Christianity for me.  If I so desire I can find fatal fault with any other christian denomination.

 

You would throw away your testimony of the Savior that easily ...???

 

And they criticize LDS heretics and apostates for supposedly leaving over Joseph having a few bumps........... 

Edited December 29, 2013 by Palerider

[Palerider]

Hello Bob,

 

This topic comes up with some regularity from several different people and is contemplated by a great deal more. I believe there is one Heavenly Father, One Son, and One Holy Spirit - the Spirit of Truth reveals all truth to all who seek. However, the trick is that as the Gospel teaches the Lord gives the degree of truth that we are able to live and we are judged by the truths given and lived.

 

I do think that some people misunderstand what is being revealed by the Holy Spirit or at least they use their experience to lead them wherever they wish to go. For example, I am surprised by some Latter-day Saints that have "found" Jesus. This always, always puzzles me and confuses me. Exactly who did they think they were worshiping in the Church?  Ever since I was I boy I worshiped and loved my Heavenly Father and I had a deep, abiding gratitude to the Savior for his gift of the Atonement that allowed me to return to my Father. How did others miss this?  If a hardheaded, none-too-bright boy could understand the message, how did they miss it?  This continues to confuse me.

 

Just as many of you have done, I have read the Bible countless times. It is a book of unending revelation because it opens to the doors to our Father for those who peacefully are open to the Spirit. I find that a reading of the entire Bible to lead to a wonderful message of the Gospel of the Savior and that message is found within the Church. As much truth as is found within Orthodoxy or Catholicism there are pieces, vital pieces, missing that lead to Exaltation.  

 

I am biased. I have a much more difficult time understanding a conversion to Evangelicalism than to almost anything else. I acknowledge there are truths there, but I find a deeper appreciation of Orthodoxy and Catholicism. I need to be more understanding of those that find a home there, but it is difficult for me personally. Where we have those within the Church and our critics who accuse us of serving too much milk, I find Evangelicalism to be so watered down as to be nearly impossible to called milk at all.

 

People have spiritual experiences. I can only claim to understand my own.  I may be frustrated with some leaders and some periods of the history, but I also know that I am a Latter-day Saint because of the direct guidance of the Holy Spirit and my willingness to be a disciple of Jesus Christ. This willingness to be a disciple also guides me to accept other disciples of Christ regardless of where they worship. If I can be an instrument in our Father's hands to heal the wounded heart by sharing the fullness of the gospel with them, I will. However, if they are at peace I can rejoice with them in the knowledge that the Savior is guiding us both. 

 

"I do think that some people misunderstand what is being revealed by the Holy Spirit"

 

So, do you think that this is even a remote possibility when a person "thinks" they are recieiving a testimony of the BoM or the LDS church, that in reality, Heavenly father might just be getting them started on their journey towards Him rather than showing them the "true church"?

 

And, that possibly, just posssibly, the LDS church has it's own share of "peices, vital peices" that rather than being missing, have been unneccesarily added and are actually disapproved of by Heavenly Father?

 

I think at this particular point in time, the Lord is much more forgiving of the vehicles that He allows to bring us to Him than you might think.   

Edited December 29, 2013 by Palerider

[Palerider]

I chose the word "Pastor" because I was under the impression we were discussing why former Mormons leave the faith for other religions (specifically other Christian religions), many of whose congregations are headed by Pastors.  Substitute the title of any religious leader you wish.  I think you're simply determined to take offense, whether any was intended or not.

 

The thrust of the OP was this question:

 

"Why do so many sincere people get so many clear, differing answers?"

 

In other words is there a variance in the way the Spirit oprerates when leading people where it wants them to go or, is it an issue with the people themselves and the way they interpret what they are feeling.

 

You chose to create the "other churches" issue by your unfair portrayal.

 

 

I think you are just reluctant to offer an apology which would alleviate all of this quite quickly..........

Edited December 29, 2013 by Palerider

[EllenMaksoud]

Have any of you seen the videos by John Morehead where he interviews various former LDS members who have joined other churches? Makes interesting viewing.They do not bag the LDS church but express their feelings about the different styles of worship they encounter from sacramental to charismatic.

One of the issues that drove me from the "other churches", was the emotional showboatmanship, and guilt manipulations. Some Sundays were like Saturday night at a Rock Concert. The highly charged emotionalism eventually nausiated me, and then they would drag out people speaking in tongues while some would sigh and collapse, jerking around like new corpses, while others ran around with tiny blankets to cover the modesty of the women who'd been "slain in the spirit". Then there would be the bully like preaching of red neck pastors ranting and raving about gays, drunks and homeless people. Try to be fashionable among the other women who were constantly upping the ante. Women would be tottering about on pin like heels, and rattling like a pack animal because of all the jewelry, not to mention the one that wore a skirt that was so short she spent the entire service tugging the hem down far enough so the dark part of her panty hose did not show. One woman looked like she had used a power cement finisher on her face to smooth the makeup.  People out in the congregation would be stridently shouting "Jesus, Jesus, Jesus", like a four year old shouting "Mommy, mommy, mommy" !  By the time I got in trouble and they threw me out, I was ready to go.

 

No wonder I went to the other extreme and became a black covered, veiled Muslim.

Edited December 29, 2013 by EllenMaksoud

[Tacenda]

One of the issues that drove me from the "other churches", was the emotional showboatmanship, and guilt manipulations. Some Sundays were like Saturday night at a Rock Concert. The highly charged emotionalism eventually nausiated me, and then they would drag out people speaking in tongues while some would sigh and collapse, jerking around like new corpses, while others ran around with tiny blankets to cover the modesty of the women who'd been "slain in the spirit". Then there would be the bully like preaching of red neck pastors ranting and raving about gays, drunks and homeless people. Try to be fashionable among the other women who were constantly upping the ante. Women would be tottering about on pin like heels, and rattling like a pack animal because of all the jewelry, not to mention the one that wore a skirt that was so short she spent the entire service tugging the hem down far enough so the dark part of her panty hose did not show. One woman looked like she had used a power cement finisher on her face to smooth the makeup.  People out in the congregation would be stridently shouting "Jesus, Jesus, Jesus", like a four year old shouting "Mommy, mommy, mommy" !  By the time I got in trouble and they threw me out, I was ready to go.

 

No wonder I went to the other extreme and became a black covered, veiled Muslim.

When did you ever go to a non LDS church that was fairly normal like the LDS church, ever?  If this is not possible, I guess I'll have church at home, if I ever quit going to the LDS church.  No, just kidding, I know there are good churches also.  But your experiences sure blow me away.  After being a lifelong Mormon I know that it would take some getting use to.  These people like Lynn Wilder are usually non denominational Christians now.  Maybe that's the route to go.  They enjoy the community of going to church but all their allegiance is given to having that relationship with the Saviour.           

[EllenMaksoud]

When did you ever go to a non LDS church that was fairly normal like the LDS church, ever?  If this is not possible, I guess I'll have church at home, if I ever quit going to the LDS church.  No, just kidding, I know there are good churches also.  But your experiences sure blow me away.  After being a lifelong Mormon I know that it would take some getting use to.  These people like Lynn Wilder are usually non denominational Christians now.  Maybe that's the route to go.  They enjoy the community of going to church but all their allegiance is given to having that relationship with the Saviour.           

The LDS is the restored church, and I think there is nothing like it.

[Palerider]

One of the issues that drove me from the "other churches", was the emotional showboatmanship, and guilt manipulations. Some Sundays were like Saturday night at a Rock Concert. The highly charged emotionalism eventually nausiated me, and then they would drag out people speaking in tongues while some would sigh and collapse, jerking around like new corpses, while others ran around with tiny blankets to cover the modesty of the women who'd been "slain in the spirit". Then there would be the bully like preaching of red neck pastors ranting and raving about gays, drunks and homeless people. Try to be fashionable among the other women who were constantly upping the ante. Women would be tottering about on pin like heels, and rattling like a pack animal because of all the jewelry, not to mention the one that wore a skirt that was so short she spent the entire service tugging the hem down far enough so the dark part of her panty hose did not show. One woman looked like she had used a power cement finisher on her face to smooth the makeup.  People out in the congregation would be stridently shouting "Jesus, Jesus, Jesus", like a four year old shouting "Mommy, mommy, mommy" !  By the time I got in trouble and they threw me out, I was ready to go.

 

No wonder I went to the other extreme and became a black covered, veiled Muslim.

 

Admittedly there is that aspect of Evangelism that is not in keeping with the the feeling one gets when reading about the New Testament church.

 

But rather than choosing the Muslim faith why not go for the Amish or the Mennenites?

 

You see it (Christianity) really ranges all over the place. I'm not saying that the LDS faith is totally heretical. I'm just saying it has about as many false branches in it's tree as it does those that are true.

 

As Jefferson stated quite well:

 

"The religion builders have so distorted and deformed the doctrines of Jesus, so muffled them in mysticisms, fancies and falsehoods, have caricatured them into forms so inconceivable, as to shock reasonable thinkers.....Happy in the prospect of a restoration of primitive Christianity, I must leave to younger persons to encounter and lop off the false branches which have been engrafted into it by the mythologists of the middle and modern ages." 

 

Unfortunately, in spite of it's efforts, the LDS church doesn't fit the bill of a primitive restoration either........

[EllenMaksoud]

Admittedly there is that aspect of Evangelism that is not in keeping with the the feeling one gets when reading about the New Testament church.

 

But rather than choosing the Muslim faith why not go for the Amish or the Mennenites?

 

You see it (Christianity) really ranges all over the place. I'm not saying that the LDS faith is totally heretical. I'm just saying it has about as many false branches in it's tree as it does those that are true.

 

As Jefferson stated quite well:

 

"The religion builders have so distorted and deformed the doctrines of Jesus, so muffled them in mysticisms, fancies and falsehoods, have caricatured them into forms so inconceivable, as to shock reasonable thinkers.....Happy in the prospect of a restoration of primitive Christianity, I must leave to younger persons to encounter and lop off the false branches which have been engrafted into it by the mythologists of the middle and modern ages." 

 

Unfortunately, in spite of it's efforts, the LDS church doesn't fit the bill of a primitive restoration either........

Well, I deal with the imperfections of the church differently.  Part of the doctrine I ignore. I am called to love Heavenly Father, and to love my sisters and brothers. So many of the things that bother other people, I don't care about. I'll likely never be endowed, but that does not stop me from following the primary instructions of Jesus Christ. I obey D&C 89, and tithe.   Modesty is no issue because I never really abandoned my Middle Eastern culture. I can't go to the weddings of most of my friends, but I can congratulate them l8tr.

 

Lots of people think I am Molly Mormon, but I choose my battles. And, I already know what other churches are lke.

 

And, why would I let polygamy bother me. I believe in it. As to SSM, who cares, I don't love a woman.  Why would I want to go to the Men's conference, really, why?

 

As an LDS woman, I feel pretty pampered. I get to drive, and no many has permission to beat me. Though there is a suit that I really like but it only comes with pants.

Edited December 29, 2013 by EllenMaksoud

[omni]

One of the issues that drove me from the "other churches", was the emotional showboatmanship, and guilt manipulations. Some Sundays were like Saturday night at a Rock Concert. The highly charged emotionalism eventually nausiated me, and then they would drag out people speaking in tongues while some would sigh and collapse, jerking around like new corpses, while others ran around with tiny blankets to cover the modesty of the women who'd been "slain in the spirit". Then there would be the bully like preaching of red neck pastors ranting and raving about gays, drunks and homeless people. Try to be fashionable among the other women who were constantly upping the ante. Women would be tottering about on pin like heels, and rattling like a pack animal because of all the jewelry, not to mention the one that wore a skirt that was so short she spent the entire service tugging the hem down far enough so the dark part of her panty hose did not show. One woman looked like she had used a power cement finisher on her face to smooth the makeup.  People out in the congregation would be stridently shouting "Jesus, Jesus, Jesus", like a four year old shouting "Mommy, mommy, mommy" !  By the time I got in trouble and they threw me out, I was ready to go.

 

No wonder I went to the other extreme and became a black covered, veiled Muslim.

 

Wait...you used to be EV and then Muslim?  Why haven't you ever shared this with us before?

[Thinking]

In short, the "miraculous" anti-conversion stories are simply the relief they feel at being told what they want to hear.

 

It's interesting that the LDS formula for gaining a testimony is to first desire to believe. "But behold, if ye will awake and arouse your faculties, even to an experiment upon my words, and exercise a particle of faith, yea, even if ye can no more than desire to believe, let this desire work in you, even until ye believe in a manner that ye can give place for a portion of my words." (Alma 32:27)

 

Missionaries plant desires into the hearts of investigators. "Would you like to live with your family forever?"

 

Many "anti-conversion" stories  ironically include the desire to believe the truth claims of the LDS Church. Mine is such a story. I didn't want to lose my testimony. I met with my bishop and accepted callings. My last calling as a teacher required that I bear testimony, which I could not honestly do. I asked to be released.

[Calm]

People have contradictory desires all the time, including multiple good or bad ones (I want to study for a test to get a good grade/I want to blow it off to sleep in/I want to go help a friend whose car won't start, I want to be faithful to my spouse/that guy looks hot and fun and he is inviting me out to have dinner with him). What desires we allow to rule us are what determines the quality of people we are (not insinuating here anything about those who choose to leave a faith, just observing that one expressed desire is not the whole story).

[omni]

That is exactly right.  People in the church often forget one of Joseph Smith's most interesting teachings.  "The Holy Ghost has NO effect other than pure intelligence".  TPJS 149.  No effect except that stroke of knowledge, communication, confirmation.

 

 

All this talk of warm fuzzy feelings, burnings, rapturous joy, are not how the Holy Ghost operates.  The Holy Ghost witnesses to truth, so if no information is communicated or confirmed it wasn't the Holy Ghost.  Just because you feel good about something doesn't imply a witness - whether for conversion or anti-conversion.

 

This reminds me of an old Mormon Stories podcast I listened to about the unofficial spokesperson for polygamists.  She was raised in a strong LDS family in which the church was the center of her life.  She loved the church and had a strong testimony of its truthfulness.  Not long after getting married she and her husband started studying Mormon history and noticed that many of the teachings of the early LDS church no longer existed in the modern church.  After her intensive research, she was especially confused about the discontinuance of polygamy.  So like any good LDS, she did what we are taught to do--she went to the Lord in prayer.  She didn't go into details about the experience she received because of the intensely personal nature, but did relate she was given the undeniable answer the polygamy was still to be practised today.  

 

This was a woman who loved the church and never doubted its truthfulness, she wasn't lazy, didn't want to sin, was not lead away by anti-Mormon material or a charismatic polygamist-offshoot prophet (she remains an independent polygamist today), but by an answer to a sincere prayer to God in which he revealed new information to her.  She was well aware of how to recognize the spirit and becoming an independent polygamists certainly couldn't have made her life any easier, so where would this answer have come from?

Edited December 29, 2013 by omni

[Robert F. Smith]

...........................................................    

Unfortunately, in spite of it's efforts, the LDS church doesn't fit the bill of a primitive restoration either........

What, pray tell, do you think that the primitive Christian church was like?  We had a discussion on this board not long ago about that very issue:  See http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/61413-did-the-church-ever-cease-to-exist/ .

[EllenMaksoud]

This reminds me of an old Mormon Stories podcast I listened to about the unofficial spokesperson for polygamists.  She was raised in a strong LDS family in which the church was the center of her life.  She loved the church and had a strong testimony of its truthfulness.  Not long after getting married she and her husband started studying Mormon history and noticed that many of the teachings of the early LDS church no longer existed in the modern church.  After her intensive research, she was especially confused about the discontinuance of polygamy.  So like any good LDS, she did what we are taught to do--she went to the Lord in prayer.  She didn't go into details about the experience she received because of the intensely personal nature, but did relate she was given the undeniable answer the polygamy was still to be practised today.  

 

This was a woman who loved the church and never doubted its truthfulness, she wasn't lazy, didn't want to sin, was not lead away by anti-Mormon material or a charismatic polygamist-offshoot prophet (she remains an independent polygamist today), but by an answer to a sincere prayer to God in which he revealed new information to her.  She was well aware of how to recognize the spirit and becoming an independent polygamists certainly couldn't have made her life any easier, so where would this answer have come from?

In truth, they stopped doing Polygamy to stay out of jail. Were there abuses before 1890? I do not know. Warren Jeffs got way out of bounds. Muslims in America practice it when they want to, but I have never met a woman that wanted it.  With sufficient spiritual direction ... ? I don't think anyone has the right to set the parameters of a marriage as long as everyone is consenting.

[Coreyb]

everyone stop bickering. You are like my grandparents 

[The Nehor]

"Why do so many sincere people get so many clear, differing answers?"

 

I don't think I've ever met a sincere person. Maybe myself but I suspect that may be self-delusion.

 

I suppose I could dust off Diogene's lamp and go out tomorrow at noon and look for one.

[Storm Rider]

"I do think that some people misunderstand what is being revealed by the Holy Spirit"

 

So, do you think that this is even a remote possibility when a person "thinks" they are recieiving a testimony of the BoM or the LDS church, that in reality, Heavenly father might just be getting them started on their journey towards Him rather than showing them the "true church"?

 

And, that possibly, just posssibly, the LDS church has it's own share of "peices, vital peices" that rather than being missing, have been unneccesarily added and are actually disapproved of by Heavenly Father?

 

I think at this particular point in time, the Lord is much more forgiving of the vehicles that He allows to bring us to Him than you might think.   

 

Hello Palerider,

 

I tried to emphasize that I can only understand and be responsible for my own spiritual experience and no one else's. I tried to communicate that other people, regardless of religion, spiritual path, etc., may not understand exactly what is being revealed or communicated. This goes for LDS, Muslim, Catholic, Orthodox, etc. The religion is not the issue; the individual is the issue and the lens through which what is directed is being interpreted.  

 

We are supposed to be disciples of truth and followers of Christ. I did not indicate or try to indicate that I was on "THE" path or had all the answers. To the contrary, we can learn much truth from others. I believe that the teachings of the truth can lead to exaltation, but I also think that is found elsewhere. 

[jwhitlock]

Hey jwitlock--

 

If by "hammer Kenngo" you mean I'd be willing to buy him a drink or two (or maybe even three)--color me guilty. 

;0)

 

But if you mean hammer as in nails/crucify--count me out.  His posts on this thread have gotten him into a sticky wicket, no doubt, but he & I have engaged before (and on one notable occasion, I had to make public apology--my posting history is here for all to see).  He may have a clear & concise answer, and I'm sure we won't have too long to wait. 

 

Regarding "subscribe to anti-Mormon stereotypes"--you do me a disservice.  Please know I'm reluctant to venture into topics where I don't have first-hand experience.  I was active LDS for most of my life--and I've no need of anyone's subscription service to generate my thoughts. 

 

--Erik

 

Why Erik, your defense of Pastor Mark - someone who doesn't hold Mormons in particularly high esteem - on this board belies your real feelings concerning members of the church.

 

Kenngo has made is intent clear in subsequent posts.

 

Why don't you clarify your own viewpoints in return concerning LDS stereotypes? You've readily admitted on this thread that you stereotype most of us as being clueless as to what occurs in non-LDS churches - something which is false - and you seem to be sticking to that. I can only assume because of your association with and support of an anti-Mormon pastor that you also embrace other stereotypes of Latter-day Saints.

 

So rather than beating around the bush, why don't you just own up and be clear about your viewpoints? And in doing so, explain why you would condemn Kenngo for a stereotype you claim he made while defending your own stereotyping? You see, it wasn't enough for you to claim he made a stereotype. You had to claim that most Mormons stereotyped non-LDS. Rather ironic, and inconsistent of you, I would say.

[Bikeemikey]

Awhile ago I looked online at a few non LDS churches to see what kinds of things they did. I looked at their calendars and it was filled with activities. Non paid, volunteers helped in various jobs. Youth programs. Women's groups, bible study groups. Meetings on Sunday, morning and night. Saturday get togethers, plenty to do. Missions all over the world that convert to Christianity. Food bank collections, various service projects. And an accounting of the money taken in and where it went. It was eye opening, mainly because I thought LDS people were busy. So really the thought that non LDS just sit on their butts once saved is not true, some do, just like LDS. It's a big world out there, filled with every kind. Just trying to figure their own truth.

My experience in the church has proven out the following generalization: mormon service projects and time at the local ward and stake level serves mormons... whereas, other christian denominations tend to serve those outside their religious community.

 

We are good at looking after our own but not good at serving in the community outside of our own church members.