"miraculous" Anti Conversion Stories

[Palerider]

I wonder how many of those who get these "revelations" were already looking for a way out before hand?  Just looking briefly at the web site you mention, I wonder why a covenanted Mormon would go there?

 

My own conversion, which brought me TO the Mormons is quite powerful, and yes I was looking for a way out of Islam.

 

I'm personally looking for a way to stay, but I'm not having any luck..........

[jwhitlock]

And don't forget this possibility. That the LDS faith really isn't what it purports to be and that those who leave the church with their integrity intact are possibly more right than you know.

 

Nope. Not a possibility.

[Palerider]

I don't see anywhere where Kenngo said or even inferred that all Christians didn't tithe or didn't volunteer. He seemed to be talking about the attitudes of some who left the LDS church, possibly because activity in the church does require a great deal of time, and suddenly they feel like they don't have to do anything.

 

Perhaps you can enlighten us on where he actually said or inferred what you're claiming here.  If not, perhaps you can retract this as an invalid point on your part.

 

"You can just park your butt in a pew an hour a week and let the pastor handle all the dirty work and the hard stuff!"

 

The implication here is that this is what all the rest of the christians are doing.........and that implication is in bad form.

[jwhitlock]

"You can just park your butt in a pew an hour a week and let the pastor handle all the dirty work and the hard stuff!"

 

The implication here is that this is what all the rest of the christians are doing.........and that implication is in bad form.

 

Of course, it helps your viewpoint when you take the quote out of the context it was given in. You can then ascribe any implication you want to it.

[Kenngo1969]

I'm personally looking for a way to stay, but I'm not having any luck..........

Has the Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ born any good fruit in your life?  (As I say, I'm not discounting the prospect of finding good fruit in other churches, if your choice is between the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and some other church, but it is one question to ask in an effort to evaluate the decision whether to stay.)

[Palerider]

Some of what you say is true, Erik, but you left much more unsaid:

 

The money is not rolling in for the mainstream Christian and Jewish congregations in America, and volunteerism is way down.  For most of those mainline denominations, fewer people come to meetings, and it has been generations since religion was a way of life rather than just Sabbath observance.  Very few of the professional clergy are tending megachurches or Hasidic congregations.  Since donations are way down, most have had to find additional ways to fund their bldgs.

 

Looking for extra revenue, for example, a Lutheran Church across the street from my ward in southern California had to install a cell site in its highest tower, and a local Roman Catholic Church did the same.  One denomination along the coast (Manhattan Beach, I think) put an array of solar panels on the roof in order to defray electric costs for the future.

 

Reform Judaism, in the midst of assimilation with non-Jews and with their birth-rate continuing to rapidly drop, have had to close their Hebrew Union College Biblical and Archaeological School in Jerusalem.  One Jewish scholar told me recently that only the orthodox and ultra-orthodox Jews will remain healthy and vibrant as a community.  One might say the same for Christian evangelicalism.

 

A Mormon congregation can get by far more cheaply without professional clergy, and without professional musicians and singers (my uncle earned extra money singing in a Reform Jewish Congregation choir on Saturdays, when he was a divinity school grad student at Yale back in the late 30s, and I knew a lapsed Mormon who used to earn money playing the organ at a Methodist congregation in St Louis in the 1970s).

 

All that, in addition to the fact that Mormons tend to give far more per capita in charitable contributions to their own church as well as to other charities than other religions, provides the conclusion that those who are committed put their money where their mouth is.

 

Robert,

 

I don't disagree with much that you have said here.

 

Do you have any recent statistics on how the LDS faith is fairing today as compared with say 15 years ago before the effects of the internet started to be felt?

 

Also is an individual's Christianity always reflected in how local congregations are doing? I think the path that we as a nation (secularization vrs religious foundational culture) are on, may be preparing us for the time (which you and I have hinted at) when all religions (including the LDS) will be corrected...

[mormonnewb]

"Good news! The Heavens are closed! Prophets are long since dead ... since Biblical times! You don't have to do any of the work of obtaining your own witness that what anyone purporting to be a 'prophet' in Mormonism says is true! An immediate 10% raise! No more thankless church 'volunteer' work! You can just park your butt in a pew an hour a week and let the pastor handle all the dirty work and the hard stuff!"

I can understand the allure of some of that ... but not all of it. (Talk about "selling one's birthright for a mess of pottage.")

Wow! I bet Dr King and his followers wished they knew how easy it was to be a non-LDS Christian. They didn't have to face down those dogs, water hoses and angry mobs. They could have just sat in the back pews and let their pastor (and all of us good Mormons) do all of the real work of Christianity. Oh yeah, I forgot. We sat that one out.

As Mormons, we have no monopoly on sincere religious devotion. And perhaps, if we ALL recognize that, we wouldn't experience so much hostility from those "lazy" Christians.

[Palerider]

Nope. Not a possibility.

 

I suppose we'll see about that.

[Palerider]

Of course, it helps your viewpoint when you take the quote out of the context it was given in. You can then ascribe any implication you want to it.

 

Well let's seeeeee.........He could have said, "Park your butt in front of your TV and watch football on Sunday", but he didn't did he.....

 

So why do you suppose he chose the word "Pastor"?

 

Not trying to imply anything here.........I'm just sayin'.........

[Palerider]

Has the Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ born any good fruit in your life?  (As I say, I'm not discounting the prospect of finding good fruit in other churches, if your choice is between the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and some other church, but it is one question to ask in an effort to evaluate the decision whether to stay.)

 

Christ and the principles He taught have born good fruit in my life wherever they have been found. And there are SOME in the LDS faith.

 

How much fruit did the priesthood ban bear in your life? Does your family still suffer even today, from the effects of a polygamous marriage three generations ago????????????

[jwhitlock]

I suppose we'll see about that.

 

Won't be much of a surprise for me.

[jwhitlock]

Well let's seeeeee.........He could have said, "Park your butt in front of your TV and watch football on Sunday", but he didn't did he.....

 

So why do you suppose he chose the word "Pastor"?

 

Not trying to imply anything here.........I'm just sayin'.........

 

Because possibly that's the attitude that some - not all - Christians actually have?

 

Still out of context, however. The OP is about some people who leave the church, not about all Christians.

[jwhitlock]

Christ and the principles He taught have born good fruit in my life wherever they have been found. And there are SOME in the LDS faith.

 

How much fruit did the priesthood ban bear in your life? Does your family still suffer even today, from the effects of a polygamous marriage three generations ago????????????

 

If all you're doing is cherry picking perceived negative aspects of the church, then I'm sure you'll find ample ammunition to feed such rationalizations.

 

However, this "family suffering from the effects of polygamous marriage" thing is new to me, and outside the bounds of my experience. Frankly, we don't feel any ill effects from the polygamous marriages of our ancestors; actually quite the contrary.

[ERayR]

"Good news!  The Heavens are closed!  Prophets are long since dead ... since Biblical times!  You don't have to do any of the work of obtaining your own witness that what anyone purporting to be a 'prophet' in Mormonism says is true!  An immediate 10% raise!  No more thankless church 'volunteer' work!  You can just park your butt in a pew an hour a week and let the pastor handle all the dirty work and the hard stuff!"

 

I can understand the allure of some of that ... but not all of it. (Talk about "selling one's birthright for a mess of pottage.")

 

Hooray I can sleep in on Sunday mornings.  No more bishopric meetings.

[ERayR]

Christians tithe & Christians volunteer.  Buildings, utilities, salaries--all cost money and where do you suppose that comes from, Kenngo1969?  And few positions in your local Christian church are actually paid/vocational.  But an awful lot of LDS think as you do, in my experience.    

 

Talk about... needing to get out a little

;0)

 

--Erik

 

You don't understand if I accept that the COJCOLDS is not true you have about wiped out all Christianity for me.  If I so desire I can find fatal fault with any other christian denomination.

[Kenngo1969]

Wow! I bet Dr King and his followers wished they knew how easy it was to be a non-LDS Christian. They didn't have to face down those dogs, water hoses and angry mobs. They could have just sat in the back pews and let their pastor (and all of us good Mormons) do all of the real work of Christianity. Oh yeah, I forgot. We sat that one out.

As Mormons, we have no monopoly on sincere religious devotion. And perhaps, if we ALL recognize that, we wouldn't experience so much hostility from those "lazy" Christians.

You divorced what I said from its context.  You're welcome to disagree with me, but please deal with what I said in context.

 

And no, I don't think that Mormons have a monopoly on sincere religious devotion.  Please see the link I posted earlier in the thread.

 

P.S.: Lest anyone be tempted to claim rhetorical victory because I have fallen silent , I must leave for most of the rest of the evening.  Should you reply to anything I have just said, I will deal with those replies as the opportunity arises.

Edited December 29, 2013 by Kenngo1969

[Kenngo1969]

Hooray I can sleep in on Sunday mornings.  No more bishopric meetings.

You and me both, Brother!  You and me both!

[Five Solas]

You don't understand if I accept that the COJCOLDS is not true you have about wiped out all Christianity for me.  If I so desire I can find fatal fault with any other christian denomination.

Okay, I'll bite, ERayR:  What does your acceptance (or lack thereof) concerning whether the LDS Church is "true" have to do with wiping out Christianity (for you or anyone else)?  Having experienced both sides, I see no connection.  Kindly elaborate.

 

--Erik 

[mormonnewb]

You divorced what I said from its context. You're welcome to disagree with me, but please deal with what I said in context.

And no, I don't think that Mormons have a monopoly on sincere religious devotion. Please see the link I posted earlier in the thread.

P.S.: Lest anyone be tempted to claim rhetorical victory because I have fallen silent , I must leave for most of the rest of the evening. Should you reply to anything I have just said, I will deal with those replies as the opportunity arises.

What context? I copied your quote in its ENTIRETY.

At best case, you weren't referring to most Christians as lazy but only the persons in the article who left Mormonism. But even then, your assumption was totally unwarranted as I understand that at least one of them is working to spread the Gospel through music. That might be a little more demanding than my EQ Instructor calling.

More pertinently, your presumption about some Protestants just sitting in the pews must apply to more than just the family in question because otherwise, it wouldn't make sense. No one would say that someone converted to Mormonism, to say, drink alcohol. Because while a few of us do, it's not something that MOST of us do. Therefore, your presumption of this family's laziness greatly implies that there is a general lack of zeal amongst Protestants. After all, if you thought that Protestants were every bit as diligent as Mormons, you wouldn't have assumed that these people converted to take the easy way out.

[Five Solas]

You and me both, Brother!  You and me both!

Hey Kenngo--

 

It will seem to some of your readers that posts #43 & #44 are incongruent.  In #43, you insist you've been taken out of context.  In #44 you affirm the very understanding 'mormonnewb' took you to task for...

 

Feels altogether awkward for you.  Please give it some more thought, when time permits

 

--Erik

[jwhitlock]

Hey Kenngo--

 

It will seem to some of your readers that posts #43 & #44 are incongruent.  In #43, you insist you've been taken out of context.  In #44 you affirm the very understanding 'mormonnewb' took you to task for...

 

Feels altogether awkward for you.  Please give it some more thought, when time permits

 

--Erik

 

Hey Erik:

 

Interesting how you want to hammer Kenngo based on your interpretation of his comments when he clarifies them in post #43. You seem intent on nailing him to the wall for inferring (according to you) that all Christians are lazy and just sit in the pews. Yet you have absolutely no problem doing your own stereotyping of Mormons, telling us that this attitude is prevalent among them. Further, you seem from other threads to subscribe to other anti-Mormon stereotypes concerning Mormons, including claims that Mormons are not Christians.

 

Wonder how you handle that kind of an inconsistent attitude.

[Tacenda]

"You can just park your butt in a pew an hour a week and let the pastor handle all the dirty work and the hard stuff!"

The implication here is that this is what all the rest of the christians are doing.........and that implication is in bad form.

Awhile ago I looked online at a few non LDS churches to see what kinds of things they did. I looked at their calendars and it was filled with activities. Non paid, volunteers helped in various jobs. Youth programs. Women's groups, bible study groups. Meetings on Sunday, morning and night. Saturday get togethers, plenty to do. Missions all over the world that convert to Christianity. Food bank collections, various service projects. And an accounting of the money taken in and where it went. It was eye opening, mainly because I thought LDS people were busy. So really the thought that non LDS just sit on their butts once saved is not true, some do, just like LDS. It's a big world out there, filled with every kind. Just trying to figure their own truth.

[Monster]

I believe it's because they ask with preconceived notions or with a sense of dissatisfaction.  In short, the "miraculous" anti-conversion stories are simply the relief they feel at being told what they want to hear.  I have experienced this with members of my own family.  First they are dissatisfied with the Church, then they are bitter, then they start looking elsewhere, then when they find some substitute or freedom that makes them feel good "BOOM" they have their "answer".

People don't get differing answers, they really don't.  What they do is interpret their feelings as being an answer, but our feelings our completely unreliable.  When we feel good about something we think it's from God, when we feel bad, well we think it can't be true.  Our limited feelings cloud truth more often than our limited knowledge.

Yes that is exactly what Mormons do. They operate on what they interpret as good feelings. Every religion tries to corner the market on "feelings" It is  a poor way to get any reliable answers. 

 

I do not see how one can claim that feelings to join the Mormon church are somehow better than feelings to leave the church. They all come from the same place.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Hi jwhitlock, as a former Protestant, I had the same reaction as Five Solas and refrained from expressing it. Kenngo is a good guy and I like him. I just decided to let it pass, but he did say this which seems to indicate a possible stereotype that is held among Mormons:  You can just park your butt in a pew an hour a week and let the pastor handle all the dirty work and the hard stuff!"

 

 

3DOP

I grew up in a one room old fashioned Baptist Church..."one hour"; I wished.

[Robert F. Smith]

Yes that is exactly what Mormons do. They operate on what they interpret as good feelings. Every religion tries to corner the market on "feelings" It is  a poor way to get any reliable answers. 

 

I do not see how one can claim that feelings to join the Mormon church are somehow better than feelings to leave the church. They all come from the same place.

If Mormons were a bunch of charismatics or pentecostals this focus on feeling might make a lot of sense.  The problem is that Mormon missionaries may depend on the Holy Spirit to testify and back up their systematic and rational claims, but it is precisely the Scriptural base along with logical argument which precedes the miracle.

 

Mainstream and evangelical Christians harshly criticize the Mormons (and the charismatics) for the supposed focus on feelings, preferring to focus on the Scriptures in a circular argument (sola scriptura).

 

For cynics and skeptics, the Holy Spirit may ex hypothesi be called into serious question as mere emotion since it is not logically or scientifically falsifiable.  However, that begs the question by ignoring all other forms of evidence which might reasonably be considered.