Storm Rider Posted January 6, 2014 Posted January 6, 2014 That's what I said...But it's a legitimate question, as far as healing, answers to prayers, guidance and revelation are concerned.If I got down on my knees and asked if the Pope was God's representative with an open mind and a sincere heart can I be guaranteed that God will tell me "NO"?If I fasted and prayed whether I should enter into a polygamous marriage and I didn't have my mind made already up, would the Lord tell me not to? I do believe God answers prayers, and I do believe God cannot lie. But that being said, is it really possible to know for sure that you are right and they are wrong? Because they already prayed, and were told they were right and you were wrong... This assumes that we are all the same and in the same place and willing to live the same truths. I find that there is one source of truth in the world and diverse paths individuals are capable of living the truths they know. The objective is to seek truth and to live the truths revealed. The problem is denying truths revealed or known for lesser degrees of truth - a way of taking two steps back rather than moving forward.
jwhitlock Posted January 6, 2014 Posted January 6, 2014 I completely agree! The problem is our biggest emphasis when converting others to the church is through spiritual confirmation. The same spiritual confirmation that tells a 50 year old man in Colorado City that they must take on a fourth wife in order to build up his kingdom in the afterlife or the same spiritual confirmation that tells a young Catholic woman she must remain celibate and dedicate the rest of her life to the church as a nun. I think you conflate the necessity of a personal spiritual conversion with trying to determine whose spiritual conversions are correct. The former is absolutely necessary. The latter, trying to use subjective value judgments using only spiritual experiences is futile. Also, it's important not to conflate spiritual validation of truth claims with personal spiritual guidance. The former is often over-interpreted, while the latter can occur with anyone who seeks after God for such guidance. And though that guidance is also over-interpreted at times, since it applies only to the individual in their particular circumstances, it's not really our place to judge. It's only when truth claims are made that we need to also look for objective evidence to verify what they're claiming.
Thinking Posted January 6, 2014 Posted January 6, 2014 It just occurred to me that the participants in this thread are attempting to have an objective discussion about a subjective experience.
Storm Rider Posted January 6, 2014 Posted January 6, 2014 What amazes me is that some are so disturbed that others in the world could enjoy the Light of Christ, have spiritual experiences within their religious milieu, and the mere fact that the Spirit works in the world makes them doubt their own experience and doubt the reality that Jesus lives. No where in scripture are we told that blessings will on flow to a chosen group of individuals. No where does it say that God is limited to a specific subset of people. No where does it say that you are my chosen people and I will not participate in the lives of the vast majority of those who are not within the fold. The fact that a Muslim, a Buddhist, a Catholic, or even the dreaded Evangelicals could experience a relationship with God or obtain enlightenment has no impact upon the truths that I know. We acknowledge as a Church that there is much truth within all religions and they each have something to teach us. However, the fact that they have truths to teach us does not negate the wonderful truths that we have to teach them. We are not alone in this world and nor is anyone else. If anything we should be able to rejoice in the workings of the Spirit wherever they are found or experienced. The mere fact that God is active in the world at large should strengthen our testimony that we are all brothers and sisters and that God loves all his children. 2
Tacenda Posted January 6, 2014 Posted January 6, 2014 What amazes me is that some are so disturbed that others in the world could enjoy the Light of Christ, have spiritual experiences within their religious milieu, and the mere fact that the Spirit works in the world makes them doubt their own experience and doubt the reality that Jesus lives.No where in scripture are we told that blessings will on flow to a chosen group of individuals. No where does it say that God is limited to a specific subset of people. No where does it say that you are my chosen people and I will not participate in the lives of the vast majority of those who are not within the fold. The fact that a Muslim, a Buddhist, a Catholic, or even the dreaded Evangelicals could experience a relationship with God or obtain enlightenment has no impact upon the truths that I know. We acknowledge as a Church that there is much truth within all religions and they each have something to teach us. However, the fact that they have truths to teach us does not negate the wonderful truths that we have to teach them. We are not alone in this world and nor is anyone else. If anything we should be able to rejoice in the workings of the Spirit wherever they are found or experienced. The mere fact that God is active in the world at large should strengthen our testimony that we are all brothers and sisters and that God loves all his children.And He still needs angels!
why me Posted January 6, 2014 Posted January 6, 2014 (edited) I think this is funny considering a Mormon says "You know that the book of Mormon is right because you get a good feeling when you read it"I have never heard a mormon say that. One can get a good feeling reading donald duck. So, I tend to doubt that these mormons would claim the same comparison. Most mormons would say that when they read the book and followed what moroni said to do...pray about whether it is true or not, they received a powerful spiritual experiences that confirmed that the lds church is true. This has happened over and over again to millions of people. Hard to explain away. Edited January 6, 2014 by why me
why me Posted January 6, 2014 Posted January 6, 2014 I completely agree! The problem is our biggest emphasis when converting others to the church is through spiritual confirmation. The same spiritual confirmation that tells a 50 year old man in Colorado City that they must take on a fourth wife in order to build up his kingdom in the afterlife or the same spiritual confirmation that tells a young Catholic woman she must remain celibate and dedicate the rest of her life to the church as a nun.I am not so sure about this. But I do know that critics of the lds church use this logic to tempt the lds away from their faith. And some fall for it and leave the faith or they begin to downplay their spiritual experiences and eventually leave. I have seen this happen to a friend of mine. I do know that there are christians who mock the 'the feelings in the bosom' experience. They call it a warm fuzzy. It seems that these people are not having any spiritual experiences if they can mock the lds for having them. It seems to me that for many of the lds, they seem to have many spiritual experiences. It has been this way throughout their history. I linked to edward stevenson who claimed to have a powerful experience when Joseph spoke about his first vision experience as did the congregation. What to do? Also,
why me Posted January 6, 2014 Posted January 6, 2014 A person is saved by the grace of God through faith that Jesus is the Christ with leading of the Holy Spirit. People who attend a church in a belief that membership or safety in numbers is what counts are ripe for the picking.I don't know what this has to do with the spiritual experiences that the lds have in their lives. Of course, these spiritual experiences come from the holy ghost. And they seem to have quite a few of such experiences whether asked for or not.
mfbukowski Posted January 6, 2014 Posted January 6, 2014 Likewise, it is saddening to me when former priests or laypeople leave the Catholic Church to start a ministry to Catholics who don't have "a personal relationship with Jesus". But I have to admire a newfound zeal. They never knew true Catholicism, according to my perspective. In a certain sense, I think they have moved closer to the true Catholic faith without even knowing it.I agree- I just changed it a teeney weeney bit.
omni Posted January 6, 2014 Posted January 6, 2014 What amazes me is that some are so disturbed that others in the world could enjoy the Light of Christ, have spiritual experiences within their religious milieu, and the mere fact that the Spirit works in the world makes them doubt their own experience and doubt the reality that Jesus lives. No where in scripture are we told that blessings will on flow to a chosen group of individuals. No where does it say that God is limited to a specific subset of people. No where does it say that you are my chosen people and I will not participate in the lives of the vast majority of those who are not within the fold. The fact that a Muslim, a Buddhist, a Catholic, or even the dreaded Evangelicals could experience a relationship with God or obtain enlightenment has no impact upon the truths that I know. We acknowledge as a Church that there is much truth within all religions and they each have something to teach us. However, the fact that they have truths to teach us does not negate the wonderful truths that we have to teach them. We are not alone in this world and nor is anyone else. If anything we should be able to rejoice in the workings of the Spirit wherever they are found or experienced. The mere fact that God is active in the world at large should strengthen our testimony that we are all brothers and sisters and that God loves all his children. I agree with you for the most part, so how do you reconcile this belief when individuals claim spiritual confirmation for conflicting doctrines? For example, concerning polygamy, there are thousands of couples receiving spiritual confirmation for an act that is excommunicatable in the LDS church.
why me Posted January 6, 2014 Posted January 6, 2014 I agree with you for the most part, so how do you reconcile this belief when individuals claim spiritual confirmation for conflicting doctrines? For example, concerning polygamy, there are thousands of couples receiving spiritual confirmation for an act that is excommunicatable in the LDS church.Any person can claim a spiritual experience or a spiritual confirmation. However, in the lds church it seems to be standard practice to have such experiences. I cannot say that such people in your post haven't had a spiritual confirmation. I don't know them. But I do know the lds community. And it seems genuine. Also, one can look at the lives who claim to have had such experiences such as the polygamist of colorado city. I get the feeling that they haven't had such an experience based on what I have seen among them. By their fruits, one can know them.
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