"miraculous" Anti Conversion Stories

[halconero]

My experience in the church has proven out the following generalization: mormon service projects and time at the local ward and stake level serves mormons... whereas, other christian denominations tend to serve those outside their religious community.

We are good at looking after our own but not good at serving in the community outside of our own church members.

I'll counter your anecdotal experience with my own.

The last three institute service projects that I've participated in have been to help a children's hospital, an old folks home, and the city of Toronto. Last year our area did 4 Mormon Helping Hands projects, including cleanup from Hurricane Sandy.

In my experience, service projects have been a mix of both helping members, less-active members, and non-members.

[Five Solas]

Why Erik, your defense of Pastor Mark - someone who doesn't hold Mormons in particularly high esteem - on this board belies your real feelings concerning members of the church.

 

Kenngo has made is intent clear in subsequent posts.

 

Why don't you clarify your own viewpoints in return concerning LDS stereotypes? You've readily admitted on this thread that you stereotype most of us as being clueless as to what occurs in non-LDS churches - something which is false - and you seem to be sticking to that. I can only assume because of your association with and support of an anti-Mormon pastor that you also embrace other stereotypes of Latter-day Saints.

 

So rather than beating around the bush, why don't you just own up and be clear about your viewpoints? And in doing so, explain why you would condemn Kenngo for a stereotype you claim he made while defending your own stereotyping? You see, it wasn't enough for you to claim he made a stereotype. You had to claim that most Mormons stereotyped non-LDS. Rather ironic, and inconsistent of you, I would say.

Why jwhitlock, I must have really touched a nerve that you labor so hard to impeach my credibility.  And why is it that if someone is critical of Mormonism, its doctrines, policies and practices (as best as anyone can understand the distinction) LDS must take it ever so personally?  At the risk of another stereotype, this is rather prevalent too. 

 

Listen to yourself: “…belies your real feelings concerning members of the church”

 

I love members of the LDS Church, I have many of them in my family.  Those are my “real feelings” regardless of the occasional ill-chosen word from Mars Hill’s preaching pastor.  (BTW, Pastor Mark Driscoll was interviewed on the Glenn Beck radio program a couple weeks back—did you catch it?)  The big idea I’m trying to share is you don’t have to love Mormonism to love Mormons, jwhitlock.

 

Regarding Kenngo, Palerider summed it up nicely in post #59.  And I agree completely, an apology would alleviate all of it quickly.

 

--Erik

[jwhitlock]

Why jwhitlock, I must have really touched a nerve that you labor so hard to impeach my credibility.  And why is it that if someone is critical of Mormonism, its doctrines, policies and practices (as best as anyone can understand the distinction) LDS must take it ever so personally?  At the risk of another stereotype, this is rather prevalent too. 

 

Listen to yourself: “…belies your real feelings concerning members of the church”

 

I love members of the LDS Church, I have many of them in my family.  Those are my “real feelings” regardless of the occasional ill-chosen word from Mars Hill’s preaching pastor.  (BTW, Pastor Mark Driscoll was interviewed on the Glenn Beck radio program a couple weeks back—did you catch it?)  The big idea I’m trying to share is you don’t have to love Mormonism to love Mormons, jwhitlock.

 

Regarding Kenngo, Palerider summed it up nicely in post #59.  And I agree completely, an apology would alleviate all of it quickly.

 

--Erik

 

Of course, you'd rather agree with someone who is also interpreting Kenngo's statement, rather than actually reading Kenngo's clarification about what he was saying. That you're demanding an apology for something that you interpret as being said is just an indication that you're unwilling to understand. Rather, you want to impose your own perspective on what he said and demand that we consider it as authoritative - even above Kenngo's only clarification.

 

Personally, I find that to be rather arrogant

 

Still, you are holding to your own stereotyping concerning Mormons and have refused to even address your inconsistency in your responses to me.

 

Given what you have posted above, you apparently "love" Mormons because you pity them and need to "save" them. It's certainly not because you respect them for who they are.

 

I find your use of "occasional" concerning what comes out of Pastor Mark to be ludicrous. It's not that he (and by extrapolation you, since you admire him) doesn't love Mormonism. It's the fact that he actively hates Mormonism. That's abundantly clear from how he describes my religion. I'll submit that since you admire him, you have the same attitudes about Mormonism that he does. I'll also submit that you can't actively hate a religion without also hating those who are members of that religion. The two go hand in hand. That's especially borne out by your condescending comments about members of the church in general, and your continued stereotyping.

 

Otherwise you conflate me identifying what you are doing as an anti-Mormon, as me taking things personally. Indeed, while you attack members of the church in a very personal way with your stereotyping, from my viewpoint it has no effect on the truth claims of the church. Frankly, someone who admires Mars Hill and what comes from there really doesn't have any credibility when it comes to telling Mormons how they should behave, as you are doing here. I'd be rather embarrassed to be associated with Pastor Mark, but if you're ok with him, then what you've embraced with all his crude humor and analogies is something that is diametrically opposed to the beauty and majesty of the restored gospel. As such, I can understand where your great and spacious building brand of mocking comes from.

 

So I'm still waiting for how you can justify your own stereotypes while condemning Kenngo for what you "claim" he did - despite his clarifications. Are you going to continue avoiding that question?

[JLHPROF]

Hello JLHPROF...

I have to disagree with this part of your statement in the sense that I have felt the burning in the bosom and an absolute joy on numerous occasions...  yes, there were also the words that came to my heart and mind that what I was hearing/reading was true... for instance when as a 17 year old seminary student when I accepted Moroni's challenge and prayed with sincere intent to know if the BoM was true, I received such a confirmation accompanied by a burning in the bosom that started at my navel and rose upward like a crescendo, until I was filled with an intense sense of joy accompanied by a convicton of truth in my heart and mind .  I believe I received such a strong witness because Heavenly Father knew I would need such a witness by the Spirit that would last me through the coming years when I was inactive.  I never could forget or deny that witness... and I had no desire to attend any other Church... and finally years later I reactivated... and here I am...  I guess the important thing is that I received information along with the "feelings."

 

GG

 

Hi GG,

 

I am not saying that the burning in the bosom isn't a feeling that can be received along with a witness of truth.  I am simply saying that according to revealed truth, the Holy Ghost does not provide feelings as a witness of truth.  Feelings are too unreliable, and for the purpose of this thread, lead to mistaken revelations.  The only scriptural reference to the burning is D&C 9:8 and that was God promising a specific blessing to Oliver Cowdery.

 

Joseph Smith (and also the symbol of peace, the dove at Christ's baptism) teach us the the only feeling the Holy Ghost manifests is peace, and that that peace is a direct result of receiving actual knowledge of truth to quiet our doubts and fears.  When we seek to know something, whether the Book of Mormon comes from God for instance, the Holy Ghost will tell us the truth and that will bring peace to our hearts.  That is how the Holy Ghost operates, at least according to Gospel teachings.

[rodheadlee]

Wait...you used to be EV and then Muslim?  Why haven't you ever shared this with us before?

She has many times, why don't you know about it?

[rodheadlee]

Getting back to the OP and away from the bickering about what church does what and how we perceive these churches from our various points of view. What are the demographics of these miraculous anti-conversions? Are most of these folks BIC? I would imagine so, as a guess. Those of us that are converts already know what it is like outside, those that are BIC don't. It's one thing to leave the Church and wander in the darkness without seeking the light, but it's another thing to leave the home port of LDS and seek the other light houses of the various Christian ports that are out there. I could not be who I am in my faith without first visiting the ports of EV, Protestant, and JW before the missionaries were sent to my home. Maybe Heavenly Father knows these folks need to travel a bit before returning home. I pray they are all able to have a safe journey.

[EllenMaksoud]

I believe it's because they ask with preconceived notions or with a sense of dissatisfaction.  In short, the "miraculous" anti-conversion stories are simply the relief they feel at being told what they want to hear.  I have experienced this with members of my own family.  First they are dissatisfied with the Church, then they are bitter, then they start looking elsewhere, then when they find some substitute or freedom that makes them feel good "BOOM" they have their "answer".

People don't get differing answers, they really don't.  What they do is interpret their feelings as being an answer, but our feelings our completely unreliable.  When we feel good about something we think it's from God, when we feel bad, well we think it can't be true.  Our limited feelings cloud truth more often than our limited knowledge.

Sort of the "itching ear" thing ... Hmmm doesn't the New Testament mention that?

[EllenMaksoud]

"Good news!  The Heavens are closed!  Prophets are long since dead ... since Biblical times!  You don't have to do any of the work of obtaining your own witness that what anyone purporting to be a 'prophet' in Mormonism says is true!  An immediate 10% raise!  No more thankless church 'volunteer' work!  You can just park your butt in a pew an hour a week and let the pastor handle all the dirty work and the hard stuff!"

 

I can understand the allure of some of that ... but not all of it. (Talk about "selling one's birthright for a mess of pottage.")

No wonder I got kicked out by the Evangelicals, I wanted to do somethin'

[Kenngo1969]

No wonder I got kicked out by the Evangelicals, I wanted to do somethin'

For the 1,736,897,365,320,750th time ...  while I think a pretty persuasive case can be made that volunteerism in Mormonism is of a different quality ("Absolutely no experience necessary") and kind (everything is done by amateurs) than volunteerism elsewhere, my post was not an indictment of Evangelicals, Protestants, or anyone else.  It was simply an attempt to explain why someone might opt for something else in contrast to Mormonism.  You disagree.  Fine.  The whole world disagrees.  Fine.  But I'm tired of having malice and animus attributed to me that I do not hold.

[Tacenda]

For the 1,736,897,365,320,750th time ... while I think a pretty persuasive case can be made that volunteerism in Mormonism is of a different quality ("Absolutely no experience necessary") and kind (everything is done by amateurs) than volunteerism elsewhere, my post was not an indictment of Evangelicals, Protestants, or anyone else. It was simply an attempt to explain why someone might opt for something else in contrast to Mormonism. You disagree. Fine. The whole world disagrees. Fine. But I'm tired of having malice and animus attributed to me that I do not hold.

You can't admit to going over board a tiny little bit, in the remark? An apology goes a long way.

[Bikeemikey]

I'll counter your anecdotal experience with my own.

The last three institute service projects that I've participated in have been to help a children's hospital, an old folks home, and the city of Toronto. Last year our area did 4 Mormon Helping Hands projects, including cleanup from Hurricane Sandy.

In my experience, service projects have been a mix of both helping members, less-active members, and non-members.

I would love to see more service projects like that. I've always been in smaller wards and stakes. Perhaps size has something to do with the scope of service activities that get selected.

[EllenMaksoud]

I guess this pretty much eradicates receiving a testimony of the BoM by getting a "good feeling" about it then doesn't it......... 

So, Pale Rider are you a convert or life long Mormon, or a searcher?  How did you first decide to be Mormon? These things matter because we all come from different backgrounds.

 

In my case, I was spiritually hungry, and lonely.  The BOM was not the primary motivator. The search for truth did not directly draw me to the church. I don't want to get in trouble with the mods so I'll tell you a little and then if you wish to continue, we can PM, or skype or ... Assuming that you really are searching.

 

The thing that brought me to the LDS was that I was searching for people who worshipped the "ONE" God. That is why I was Muslim. I had been Evangelical for 32 years. There just is not facility here to discuss all the aspects of what drove that. I have loved GOD since I was about 12 and though I searched for him ... There were a series of incidents that brought me to Kirtland, Ohio that are just too powerful to me to say they were coincidence. So every time I get a little uncertain about something in the church, all I have to do is think about them and I know that no matter what, I am supposed to be Mormon, and the church is true.

[Calm]

I would love to see more service projects like that. I've always been in smaller wards and stakes. Perhaps size has something to do with the scope of service activities that get selected.

I would not be the least surprised if this was so. My experience would suggest that the needs of members in smaller wards tend to quickly fill up service opportunities with some needs not even being able to be met, while with larger ones with more people available to help one can expand outside of the faith community.

Though only a study of Americans, so limited, you can check out the details that are linked to from the below to see that LDS give highly to nonchurch related charities as well, including time iirc.

"Among the study’s larger conclusions is the fact that, in general, religion in America contributes to civic virtue, altruism, and good neighborliness. Study data, meanwhile, indicate that collectively Mormons are among the most charitable of Americans with their means and time, both in religious and nonreligious causes (452)."

http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/major-new-study-of-religion-has-much-to-say-about-mormons

[Kenngo1969]

Since people seem remarkably determined to attribute to me things I did not write, as well as determined to misunderstand what I did write, this will be my last comment on the subject.  I will withdraw from the thread, and anyone who wishes to continue to excoriate me can have a field day playing tennis with the net down.

 

If I don’t have (or do not seek) a testimony of Temples, of Temple work, or that Sealing can create an Eternal Family unit, I’m not going to value those aspects of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.  Thus, laying aside, for the purposes of this discussion, normal human frailties to which we are all subject (and for which we should all extend sympathy to our brothers and sisters, whether we happen to share their particular failings or not), I’ll probably have a difficult time conforming my conduct to the standards necessary to enter the Temple.  (As an example, if I don’t have a testimony of the Law of Tithing, a law which I am required to keep in order to enter the Temple, I’m probably going to have a much more difficult time paying Tithing than I would otherwise.)  Does that mean that I think people who don’t pay Tithing, who otherwise are reluctant to conform their conduct to the standards required to enter the Temple, or who contribute to their church or to some other worthy cause—are bad people?  No.  But that reading has been pulled out of the ether, attached to my comments, and attributed to me, even though I don’t hold that position.

 

If I don’t have (or do not seek) a testimony that my Bishop was inspired to issue me a calling having to do, e.g., with building maintenance or with finance (despite the fact that I don’t have much, if any, background in those areas)—or if I don’t have a testimony that Bishops or other LDS leaders are inspired generally—I’m probably going to have a much different reaction if he tries to extend me a calling than I would if I felt he was inspired.   And even if I accept such a calling despite my doubts that he is inspired, I’m probably not going to perform it as well as I would if I had a firm testimony that he was inspired to extend it to me.  Does that mean that I think that LDS members who turn down callings, people who would rather not be required to be that committed, people who render service in other churches, or people who render service in other worthwhile causes and organizations are bad people?  No.  But that reading has been pulled out of the ether, attached to my comments, and attributed to me, even though I don’t hold that position.

 

And yes, if any or all of the conditions described above apply to me, I might seek out an environment that I believe will demand less of me (whether that perception is true or not is, as responses in this thread have shown, a different question).  And yes, one or more of these conditions might be perfectly valid reasons to believe that someone might cease his participation in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and opt to find fellowship in a different faith community.  If one doesn’t understand why the Church of Jesus Christ builds Temples, and/or if one doesn’t value Temple worship (and the ordinances to be found therein and the requirements necessary to enter) one might, for example, think that building such Temples is a waste of money that would be better spent elsewhere (that’s not an uncommon attitude even among members of the Church).  As a result of having reached the conclusion just mentioned, one might opt for a different faith community that doesn’t place so much emphasis on Tithing, on Temples (or other sacred spaces with strict entrance requirements), and on other features which, while not necessarily unique to the Church of Jesus Christ, are considered much more a part of orthopraxy in the Church than they are in most other faith communities.

Edited December 29, 2013 by Kenngo1969

[Palerider]

Well, I deal with the imperfections of the church differently.  Part of the doctrine I ignore. I am called to love Heavenly Father, and to love my sisters and brothers. So many of the things that bother other people, I don't care about. I'll likely never be endowed, but that does not stop me from following the primary instructions of Jesus Christ. I obey D&C 89, and tithe.   Modesty is no issue because I never really abandoned my Middle Eastern culture. I can't go to the weddings of most of my friends, but I can congratulate them l8tr.

 

Lots of people think I am Molly Mormon, but I choose my battles. And, I already know what other churches are lke.

 

And, why would I let polygamy bother me. I believe in it. As to SSM, who cares, I don't love a woman.  Why would I want to go to the Men's conference, really, why?

 

As an LDS woman, I feel pretty pampered. I get to drive, and no many has permission to beat me. Though there is a suit that I really like but it only comes with pants.

 

It sounds as if for the time being you have found a place that fits fairly well. Ignoring some of the doctrine is probably a good way to go.

 

I guess it makes a difference if one had to go out as a missionary and defend some of those doctrines and then have the church turn around and conveniently delete those doctrines almost as if they never existed.

 

I wish you well.

[Palerider]

It's interesting that the LDS formula for gaining a testimony is to first desire to believe. "But behold, if ye will awake and arouse your faculties, even to an experiment upon my words, and exercise a particle of faith, yea, even if ye can no more than desire to believe, let this desire work in you, even until ye believe in a manner that ye can give place for a portion of my words." (Alma 32:27)

 

Missionaries plant desires into the hearts of investigators. "Would you like to live with your family forever?"

 

Many "anti-conversion" stories  ironically include the desire to believe the truth claims of the LDS Church. Mine is such a story. I didn't want to lose my testimony. I met with my bishop and accepted callings. My last calling as a teacher required that I bear testimony, which I could not honestly do. I asked to be released.

 

This hits pretty close to home.

[EllenMaksoud]

For the 1,736,897,365,320,750th time ...  while I think a pretty persuasive case can be made that volunteerism in Mormonism is of a different quality ("Absolutely no experience necessary") and kind (everything is done by amateurs) than volunteerism elsewhere, my post was not an indictment of Evangelicals, Protestants, or anyone else.  It was simply an attempt to explain why someone might opt for something else in contrast to Mormonism.  You disagree.  Fine.  The whole world disagrees.  Fine.  But I'm tired of having malice and animus attributed to me that I do not hold.

UM, like sorreee dude. I was just talkin, no malice intended. Sheesh, I am not even mad at Evangelicals any more, and THAT is a miracle of megalithic proportions.  

[EllenMaksoud]

It sounds as if for the time being you have found a place that fits fairly well. Ignoring some of the doctrine is probably a good way to go.

 

I guess it makes a difference if one had to go out as a missionary and defend some of those doctrines and then have the church turn around and conveniently delete those doctrines almost as if they never existed.

 

I wish you well.

So, I'd like to know what doctrines you disagree with?

[Palerider]

I don't think I've ever met a sincere person. Maybe myself but I suspect that may be self-delusion.

 

I suppose I could dust off Diogene's lamp and go out tomorrow at noon and look for one.

 

I'm sorry you're so pessimistic in this area. I've met plenty of sincere people. Do they have a few faults? Who doesn't....

 

But I think there are plenty of people both in and out of the church who want to do the right thing.

[Palerider]

I'll counter your anecdotal experience with my own.

The last three institute service projects that I've participated in have been to help a children's hospital, an old folks home, and the city of Toronto. Last year our area did 4 Mormon Helping Hands projects, including cleanup from Hurricane Sandy.

In my experience, service projects have been a mix of both helping members, less-active members, and non-members.

 

In the past, Bikeymikey was closer to the truth. Lately the church has been doing a better job at reaching out and helping others who are non-members.

Edited December 29, 2013 by Palerider

[Palerider]

Getting back to the OP and away from the bickering about what church does what and how we perceive these churches from our various points of view. What are the demographics of these miraculous anti-conversions? Are most of these folks BIC? I would imagine so, as a guess. Those of us that are converts already know what it is like outside, those that are BIC don't. It's one thing to leave the Church and wander in the darkness without seeking the light, but it's another thing to leave the home port of LDS and seek the other light houses of the various Christian ports that are out there. I could not be who I am in my faith without first visiting the ports of EV, Protestant, and JW before the missionaries were sent to my home. Maybe Heavenly Father knows these folks need to travel a bit before returning home. I pray they are all able to have a safe journey.

 

I think I knew before I left there would be no other lights out there that would shine any brighter than the LDS. So I don't look for them.

 

I would just like the LDS to come clean, so that I can return with full intent and aid in building the church into as much as it (and I) can be.

[Palerider]

So, Pale Rider are you a convert or life long Mormon, or a searcher?  How did you first decide to be Mormon? These things matter because we all come from different backgrounds.

 

In my case, I was spiritually hungry, and lonely.  The BOM was not the primary motivator. The search for truth did not directly draw me to the church. I don't want to get in trouble with the mods so I'll tell you a little and then if you wish to continue, we can PM, or skype or ... Assuming that you really are searching.

 

The thing that brought me to the LDS was that I was searching for people who worshipped the "ONE" God. That is why I was Muslim. I had been Evangelical for 32 years. There just is not facility here to discuss all the aspects of what drove that. I have loved GOD since I was about 12 and though I searched for him ... There were a series of incidents that brought me to Kirtland, Ohio that are just too powerful to me to say they were coincidence. So every time I get a little uncertain about something in the church, all I have to do is think about them and I know that no matter what, I am supposed to be Mormon, and the church is true.

 

4th generation Mormon here. That doesn't mean there wasn't a type of "hunger" in my own youth however. And the church helped me to answer some of those questions and satisfy much of that hunger.

 

I don't want to create a soliloquy about myself on this thread, but feel free to PM me and I can happily fill in some gaps. 

[boblloyd91]

Everyone, thank you for the responses! No matter who you were I appreciate your responses. I don't know if I have shared my background but I am a 28 year old Therapist, bic, who is married and has a 1 1/2 year old daughter and a baby coming in July. Having kids, and helping people deal with suffering is something that has caused me to really understand who God is and what kind of being he is. It has been a hard journey for me at times asking questions and wondering about what this is all about.

[Palerider]

Everyone, thank you for the responses! No matter who you were I appreciate your responses. I don't know if I have shared my background but I am a 28 year old Therapist, bic, who is married and has a 1 1/2 year old daughter and a baby coming in July. Having kids, and helping people deal with suffering is something that has caused me to really understand who God is and what kind of being he is. It has been a hard journey for me at times asking questions and wondering about what this is all about.

 

It's going to get even more informative!

 

Having raised four kids and seen them all married now, I can tell you there is nothing out there that will tell you more about how Heavenly Father feels and what He goes through, than having and raising children.

[Palerider]

So, I'd like to know what doctrines you disagree with?

 

I think that would require a different thread to be opened. As I mentioned PM me if you like.