"miraculous" Anti Conversion Stories

[Palerider]

Since people seem remarkably determined to attribute to me things I did not write, as well as determined to misunderstand what I did write, this will be my last comment on the subject.  I will withdraw from the thread, and anyone who wishes to continue to excoriate me can have a field day playing tennis with the net down.

 

If I don’t have (or do not seek) a testimony of Temples, of Temple work, or that Sealing can create an Eternal Family unit, I’m not going to value those aspects of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.  Thus, laying aside, for the purposes of this discussion, normal human frailties to which we are all subject (and for which we should all extend sympathy to our brothers and sisters, whether we happen to share their particular failings or not), I’ll probably have a difficult time conforming my conduct to the standards necessary to enter the Temple.  (As an example, if I don’t have a testimony of the Law of Tithing, a law which I am required to keep in order to enter the Temple, I’m probably going to have a much more difficult time paying Tithing than I would otherwise.)  Does that mean that I think people who don’t pay Tithing, who otherwise are reluctant to conform their conduct to the standards required to enter the Temple, or who contribute to their church or to some other worthy cause—are bad people?  No.  But that reading has been pulled out of the ether, attached to my comments, and attributed to me, even though I don’t hold that position.

 

If I don’t have (or do not seek) a testimony that my Bishop was inspired to issue me a calling having to do, e.g., with building maintenance or with finance (despite the fact that I don’t have much, if any, background in those areas)—or if I don’t have a testimony that Bishops or other LDS leaders are inspired generally—I’m probably going to have a much different reaction if he tries to extend me a calling than I would if I felt he was inspired.   And even if I accept such a calling despite my doubts that he is inspired, I’m probably not going to perform it as well as I would if I had a firm testimony that he was inspired to extend it to me.  Does that mean that I think that LDS members who turn down callings, people who would rather not be required to be that committed, people who render service in other churches, or people who render service in other worthwhile causes and organizations are bad people?  No.  But that reading has been pulled out of the ether, attached to my comments, and attributed to me, even though I don’t hold that position.

 

And yes, if any or all of the conditions described above apply to me, I might seek out an environment that I believe will demand less of me (whether that perception is true or not is, as responses in this thread have shown, a different question).  And yes, one or more of these conditions might be perfectly valid reasons to believe that someone might cease his participation in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and opt to find fellowship in a different faith community.  If one doesn’t understand why the Church of Jesus Christ builds Temples, and/or if one doesn’t value Temple worship (and the ordinances to be found therein and the requirements necessary to enter) one might, for example, think that building such Temples is a waste of money that would be better spent elsewhere (that’s not an uncommon attitude even among members of the Church).  As a result of having reached the conclusion just mentioned, one might opt for a different faith community that doesn’t place so much emphasis on Tithing, on Temples (or other sacred spaces with strict entrance requirements), and on other features which, while not necessarily unique to the Church of Jesus Christ, are considered much more a part of orthopraxy in the Church than they are in most other faith communities.

 

I'm trying hard to follow the logic here and if I do, then the only issue I have is that there is zero room in your scenario for the honest dissenter who understands quite well (or at the least sufficiently) the majority of the practices and doctrines you have mentioned and yet honestly reaches the conclusion that some of them are bogus.

 

This is one of the things that was a huge aggravation for me when I attempted to explain my feelings to my Stake President.

 

I had just finished a five year stint in the Bishopric under trying circumstances and was currently serving as HPGL. I don't have a problem whatsoever with serving. I LIKE service in the church.

 

But when I expressed my feelings regarding the church foundational stories and Joseph Smith, the first thing my SP did was accuse me of wanting out of the workload.

 

I don't think you can imagine how insulting that is to one's character!

 

The man was one of the most intelligent people I had ever met and yet on this issue, he became a mental midget.  He then made matters only worse by asking if I was hiding some deep dark sin that I just didn't want to fess up about.

 

It makes you want to start pulling your hair out!

 

Elder Uchtdorf's recent talk in General Conference (although too little, too late) was certainly a step in the right direction and I really hope that my former SP choked a little as he listened.  

 

But I doubt it because the arrogance in people like that seldom wanes quickly............

Edited December 29, 2013 by Palerider

[Garden Girl]

Hi GG,

Joseph Smith (and also the symbol of peace, the dove at Christ's baptism) teach us the the only feeling the Holy Ghost manifests is peace, and that that peace is a direct result of receiving actual knowledge of truth to quiet our doubts and fears.  When we seek to know something, whether the Book of Mormon comes from God for instance, the Holy Ghost will tell us the truth and that will bring peace to our hearts.  That is how the Holy Ghost operates, at least according to Gospel teachings.

 

Yes... I''ve also had the experience of peace and calm... it is a peace that is fills one and is unmistakeable, and I've felt it on several occasions... once accompanied by the still small voice that all would be well...(and it was, but it took time... God's own schedule, not mine), other times a confirming assurance...

 

Of course I love it when I feel my heart burn within me... as in Luke 24:32... 3 Nep 11:3...  D&C 9:8 particularly because even though the Lord was speaking to Oliver he was showing an example of how we are to find answers... and this example has been used in numerous talks-...

 

GG

Edited December 29, 2013 by Garden Girl

[Calm]

Even if the Holy Ghost only manifests as peace, that doesn't mean that our own reaction to it, to the gaining of knowledge and understanding, the pure intelligence will be emotionaless save for what the HG brings us.

 

For some of us, learning is such a desirable experience, we will be joyful.  Others may learn something that reflects badly on what they have been doing and thus end up feeling shame.

 

Humans are emotional creatures, we will always react with emotion.  The question is if it becomes the dominant experience or is so minor as to be unnoticeable or something in between.

[boblloyd91]

I should clarify that in my last post what I meant to say was that I am in the midst of great questioning, and that I don't feel I have arrived at a good understanding of God's nature. Part of the reason anti testimonies bother me is because of the implication of a kind loving father I was taught to believe in and believed listened to my prayers not being accurate scares me.

[JLHPROF]

Even if the Holy Ghost only manifests as peace, that doesn't mean that our own reaction to it, to the gaining of knowledge and understanding, the pure intelligence will be emotionaless save for what the HG brings us.

 

For some of us, learning is such a desirable experience, we will be joyful.  Others may learn something that reflects badly on what they have been doing and thus end up feeling shame.

 

Humans are emotional creatures, we will always react with emotion.  The question is if it becomes the dominant experience or is so minor as to be unnoticeable or something in between.

 

I agree with this 100%.  The problem comes when we mistake the emotion for the answer.  That goes back to what I think is the biggest anti-conversion experience.  A person's emotion overrides the actual truth manifested.

[3DOP]

I should clarify that in my last post what I meant to say was that I am in the midst of great questioning, and that I don't feel I have arrived at a good understanding of God's nature. Part of the reason anti testimonies bother me is because of the implication of a kind loving father I was taught to believe in and believed listened to my prayers not being accurate scares me.

 

Hi bob.

 

If you don't know me, I speak from a Catholic perspective, but I think every Protestant would also join me in saying with your fellow LDS that God is kind and loving. One Scripture passage even says that God IS love. That does not mean that God is only love. God is wisdom. God is truth. God is the personification of every perfection that we are called to imitate.

[boblloyd91]

Thanks 3DOP, I actually do know a fair amount of Catholic and Orthodox Theology, which I admire quite a bit. I read a book a few years ago about Doris Day which I found very inspiring. I also recently read about St. Seraphim of Sarov, which I was also inspired by. I am currently on my wife's smart phone and can't quite express myself to the depth I would like, but I think part of my uncertainty about what the nature of God's love is

I asked the OP because some people leave the church claiming that it was because of God's love, while others join the Church as evidence of God's love. I fear that God may allow people to be deceived even if they are sincere and seeking, which to me doesn't seem very loving. For example, some folks honestly believe (mainly fundies) believe that Joseph's first vision was of the devil, and that we Mormons are deceived. These same folks of course think everyone but them is deceived. This fear has gone down a bit, but I still sometimes wonder if God really is a being that allows millions of seeking people to be deceived, and when I hear about folks who become "born again" and see Mormons, Catholics, etc. as hell bound fools, well I just don't know. I guess my problem is I tend to imagine the worst possible scenarios. I go through spurts where I feel Mormon, then Catholic, then Atheist, then I don't know what else! My problem I wonder is if I believe too much and trust other experiences more then my own.

[Avatar4321]

And don't forget this possibility. That the LDS faith really isn't what it purports to be and that those who leave the church with their integrity intact are possibly more right than you know.

 

To accept that means God lied to me. Not going to go down that road. Because God doesn't lie.

[Palerider]

To accept that means God lied to me. Not going to go down that road. Because God doesn't lie.

 

If that's the only way you can see this issue then He's lying to somebody, isn't He.  Either He's lying to you or He's lying to the people (who are just as sincere as you) who have received witnesses that the church is not what it says it is.

 

But then that makes it really convenient to be able to tell one's self that everybody else is either misguided, deceived, or dishonest.

 

A nice neat package, wrapped up so we don't actually have to do any real thinking or questioning about the issue.

 

I suppose it's too much to get one's head around the concept that Heavenly Father might actually lead a seeker to a place (even a partially true place) that would get us on the road to a relationship with Him as opposed to leaving us to wander in complete darkness.

[why me]

I'm personally looking for a way to stay, but I'm not having any luck..........

Did you have spiritual experiences when you were an active lds member? And if so, did these spiritual experiences confirm that the lds church's truth claims? And if you did have such experiences, why be so quick to leave them behind?

[why me]

 

I suppose it's too much to get one's head around the concept that Heavenly Father might actually lead a seeker to a place (even a partially true place) that would get us on the road to a relationship with Him as opposed to leaving us to wander in complete darkness.

I agree with you here. I think that god leads people to all sorts of places that may bring them closer to him. I know that he did for me when I began to get involved with the catholics, the religion of my boyhood. However, I could not deny my spiritual experiences in the lds church, especially when I prayed about the book of mormon and other wonderful spiritual experiences I had within the fellowship of the saints.

 

Those spiritual experiences cannot be denied by me for any price.

Edited January 1, 2014 by why me

[why me]

This is one of the things that was a huge aggravation for me when I attempted to explain my feelings to my Stake President.

 

I had just finished a five year stint in the Bishopric under trying circumstances and was currently serving as HPGL. I don't have a problem whatsoever with serving. I LIKE service in the church.

 

But when I expressed my feelings regarding the church foundational stories and Joseph Smith, the first thing my SP did was accuse me of wanting out of the workload.

 

Such is the imperfections of a human being. I try to understand the complete person and why they may react the way they do. I also attempt not to let such people bother me when it comes to the gospel. As Margaret Mead stated: Always remember that you are absolutely perfect. Just like everyone else.

[3DOP]

Thanks 3DOP, I actually do know a fair amount of Catholic and Orthodox Theology, which I admire quite a bit. I read a book a few years ago about Doris Day which I found very inspiring. I also recently read about St. Seraphim of Sarov, which I was also inspired by. I am currently on my wife's smart phone and can't quite express myself to the depth I would like, but I think part of my uncertainty about what the nature of God's love is

I asked the OP because some people leave the church claiming that it was because of God's love, while others join the Church as evidence of God's love. I fear that God may allow people to be deceived even if they are sincere and seeking, which to me doesn't seem very loving. For example, some folks honestly believe (mainly fundies) believe that Joseph's first vision was of the devil, and that we Mormons are deceived. These same folks of course think everyone but them is deceived. This fear has gone down a bit, but I still sometimes wonder if God really is a being that allows millions of seeking people to be deceived, and when I hear about folks who become "born again" and see Mormons, Catholics, etc. as hell bound fools, well I just don't know. I guess my problem is I tend to imagine the worst possible scenarios. I go through spurts where I feel Mormon, then Catholic, then Atheist, then I don't know what else! My problem I wonder is if I believe too much and trust other experiences more then my own.

 

Doris Day? I love Pillow Talk. That scene where she is playing the piano at Rock Hudson's house and realizes HE is the guy on the phone IS inspired. Ask Garden Girl. I'll bet she knows the scene. I think Doris Day was/is Seventh Day Adventist. Great entertainer even if she became a bit of a foghorn by the 60's. Ah...wait...maybe you mean Dorothy Day? I have not seen any of her movies. Heh.

Edited January 1, 2014 by 3DOP

[Robert F. Smith]

If that's the only way you can see this issue then He's lying to somebody, isn't He.  Either He's lying to you or He's lying to the people (who are just as sincere as you) who have received witnesses that the church is not what it says it is.

 

But then that makes it really convenient to be able to tell one's self that everybody else is either misguided, deceived, or dishonest.

 

A nice neat package, wrapped up so we don't actually have to do any real thinking or questioning about the issue.

 

I suppose it's too much to get one's head around the concept that Heavenly Father might actually lead a seeker to a place (even a partially true place) that would get us on the road to a relationship with Him as opposed to leaving us to wander in complete darkness.

Well put, Palerider.  Well put.

[Calm]

Doris Day? I love Pillow Talk. That scene where she is playing the piano at Rock Hudson's house and realizes HE is the guy on the phone IS inspired. Ask Garden Girl. I'll bet she knows the scene. I think Doris Day was/is Seventh Day Adventist. Great entertainer even if she became a bit of a foghorn by the 60's. Ah...wait...maybe you mean Dorothy Day? I have not seen any of her movies. Heh.

Born Catholic, but became Christian Scientist (didn't realize she was still alive):

 

http://hollowverse.com/doris-day/

 

I bet he means Dorothy Day (for those who don't know her:  http://www.catholicworker.org/dorothyday/ddbiographytext.cfm?Number=72 )

Edited January 2, 2014 by calmoriah

[boblloyd91]

Born Catholic, but became Christian Scientist (didn't realize she was still alive):

 

http://hollowverse.com/doris-day/

 

I bet he means Dorothy Day (for those who don't know her:  http://www.catholicworker.org/dorothyday/ddbiographytext.cfm?Number=72 )

 

Born Catholic, but became Christian Scientist (didn't realize she was still alive):

 

http://hollowverse.com/doris-day/

 

I bet he means Dorothy Day (for those who don't know her:  http://www.catholicworker.org/dorothyday/ddbiographytext.cfm?Number=72 )

 

Yes! Thanks for helping out, I meant Dorothy Day.

Edited January 2, 2014 by boblloyd91

[Avatar4321]

If that's the only way you can see this issue then He's lying to somebody, isn't He.  Either He's lying to you or He's lying to the people (who are just as sincere as you) who have received witnesses that the church is not what it says it is.

 

But then that makes it really convenient to be able to tell one's self that everybody else is either misguided, deceived, or dishonest.

 

A nice neat package, wrapped up so we don't actually have to do any real thinking or questioning about the issue.

 

I suppose it's too much to get one's head around the concept that Heavenly Father might actually lead a seeker to a place (even a partially true place) that would get us on the road to a relationship with Him as opposed to leaving us to wander in complete darkness.

 

Ive yet to meet someone who claims to have recieved a witness from the Lord that the Church isn't true who doesn't completely mock the Holy Spirit when they do so thus destroying their own credibility.

 

I don't know what God has told others, I just know what He has told me. And He isn't lying.

[wenglund]

Several years back I took a class on Multi-Culturalism from Lynn Wilder, and I found her to be a very pleasant, kind, and gentle person. And, while I am more than a little disappointed that she chose to make such a public spectacle over leaving the Church, I wish only the best for her and her family in their new faith journey. If they feel closer to Christ now than they did as LDS, all the better for them. [thumbs up]

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[CurrentlyAlive]

Can anyone actually give examples of a miraculous anti-conversion?  Please supply links or references to the source.  I've heard lots of people say mention such stories, but they aren't very useful if we can't examine them.

 

Thanks!

   Brian

[CurrentlyAlive]

I would also be interested in miraculous conversions to any other faith.

[why me]

Ive yet to meet someone who claims to have recieved a witness from the Lord that the Church isn't true who doesn't completely mock the Holy Spirit when they do so thus destroying their own credibility.

That has been my experience also when I have been posting on the boards. Many mock their past spiritual experiences by calling them a warm fuzzy and hightlight in a mocking tone the 'burning of the bosson'. And then comes the encore when they state that all receive such experiences: catholics, protestants, muslims, jews, hindus, etc. So, mormonism is not special.

 

Sadly, it is working and it is leading many saints away from the truth as they put their spiritual experiences into the garbage can.

[why me]

Can anyone actually give examples of a miraculous anti-conversion?  Please supply links or references to the source.  I've heard lots of people say mention such stories, but they aren't very useful if we can't examine them.

 

Thanks!

   Brian

What the critics and exmormons are now attempting to do is to diminish the lds spiritual experience. It is a direct attack on such experiences. And so, those of us who received a spiritual experience about the book of mormon as truth are routinely told that people of other faiths have the same experiences in their churches, so the lds experience is not special at all. This is a rather new strategy by the exmormons and critics of the lds church. Not surprisingly if exmormons would bear testimony of their new faith and their spiritual experience in converting.

 

However, here is edward stevenson speaking about what he felt when Joseph related the first vision account in 1834:

 

In 1834, one year following the organization of the Pontiac (Michigan) Branch, Joseph Smith and several witnesses to the Book of Mormon bore powerful affirmations to the branch members of their spiritual experiences. While summarizing the Prophet’s testimony, Edward Stevenson, a convert who attended these meetings, reminisced, “The Prophet testified with great power concerning the visit of the Father and Son, and the conversation he had with them. Never before did I feel such power as was manifested on these occasions.”²

 

^{https://www.lds.org/ensign/1986/01/confirming-witnesses-of-the-first-vision?lang=eng}

 

However, other boards such as the catholic board or a fundamentalist board routinely mock lds spiritual experiences.

 

So, for the exmormon and critic the lds spiritual experience means nothing since all who are religious can get the same experience in their own faiths. But notice something interesting in this account. It was in 1834. Critics often claim that the early members were unaware of the first vision. Obviously the early members were very much aware of it.

Edited January 2, 2014 by why me

[why me]

And here is a more full account of Edward Stevenson:

 

The devoted record keeper Edward Stevenson, while also living in Pontiac, heard Joseph speak to the branch of the Church there.

[A]fter the organization of the Pontiac [Michigan] Branch of the Church of Jesus Christ of L. D. Saints, in 1834, we had the pleasure of having a visit from the Prophet Joseph Smith: a plain but noble looking man, of large frame and about 6 feet high. With him was his Father, Joseph Smith, and Oliver Cowdery, David Whitmer and Martin Harris, whose sister Sophia Kellog lived in our settlement.

A great stir was made in this settlement at so distinguised visitors the meetings held were crowded to see and hear the testamonies given which were powerful I will here relate my own experience on the ocaision of a meeting in our old log school House The Prophet stood at a table for the pulpit whare he began relateing his vision and before he got through he was in the midst of the congregation with uplifted hand. I do believe that there was not one person presant who did at the time being or who was not convicted of the truth of his vision, of an Angle to him his countanance seemed to me to assume a heavenly whiteness and his voice was so peirseing and forcible for my part it so impressed me as to become indellibly imprinted in my mind....

The visit of this man of God to our house ... left a lasting remembrance with us and will stand as a witness against those who were so favoured above many.

In that same year, 1834, in the midst of many large congregations, the Prophet testified with great power concerning the visit of the Father and the Son, and the conersation he had with them. Never before did I feel such power as was manifested on these occasions.

(Milton V. Backman, Jr., Joseph Smith's First Vision: Confirming Evidences and Contemporary Accounts, 2d ed. rev., p.179)

 

Back in the day, such an experience would have confirmed for many saints in the 20th century that the church was true. But now...with the new twist on spiritual experiences from the exmormons and critics such an experience means nothing and should be discounted.

[CurrentlyAlive]

Thanks, that's very interesting.  I am aware of the existing arguments.  Can anyone show any of the other type of account?

[why me]

Thanks, that's very interesting.  I am aware of the existing arguments.  Can anyone show any of the other type of account?

http://lds-studies.blogspot.fi/2011/07/first-vision-in-formative-years-of.html

 

My point is very simple: exmormons with their deconversion stories attempt to discount lds spiritual experiences, including their own. But here is more information about joseph relating his vision. It seems that many were impressed with his account and received spiritual experiences when listening to him. It wasn't such a secret as the critics claim.

 

Near the end of 1836, Parley P. Pratt wrote a letter to church leaders in Canada, stating that he had attended one of the "most interesting meetings I ever attended [which] was held in the Lord's house Sunday before last."  He stated:

One week before, word was publicly given that Brother Joseph Smith, Jr. would give a relation of the coming forth of the records and also of the rise of the Church and of his experience.  Accordingly a vast concourse assembled at an early hour.  Every seat was crowded, and four or five hundred people stood up in the aisles.  Brother Smith gave the history of these things, relating many particulars of the manner of his first visions, and the spirit and power of God was upon him in bearing testimony, insomuch that many, if not most of the congregation were in tears.  As for myself I can say that all the reasonings in uncertainty and all the conclusions drawn from the writings of others...dwindle into insignificance when compared with living testimony.40

 

http://lds-studies.blogspot.fi/2011/07/first-vision-in-formative-years-of.html

 

Joseph was discussing the first vision back in the 1820s. But this is not the subject of the thread. Spiritual experiences are. My take on it is simple: the critics are attacking lds spiritual experiences so that the lds can discount them and leave the church. There is a huge 'rationalization' going on at that moment. So, the spiritual experiences as related by Pratt need to be deconstructed into nothingness, according to the logic of exmormons and critics.

Edited January 3, 2014 by why me