"miraculous" Anti Conversion Stories

[omni]

Can anyone actually give examples of a miraculous anti-conversion? Please supply links or references to the source. I've heard lots of people say mention such stories, but they aren't very useful if we can't examine them.

Thanks!

Brian

I mentioned one earlier involving Anne Wilde, the unofficial spokeswoman for polygamy. I don't know if I'm allowed to provide a link, but it was a Mormon Stories podcast discussing Mormon Fundamentalists. I think we sometimes forget that their are tens of thousands of Mormon Fundamentalists that are using Moroni's promise and receiving answers every bit as real that their branch of Mormonism is the one true church.

[Not A Mormon]

I believe it's because they ask with preconceived notions or with a sense of dissatisfaction.  In short, the "miraculous" anti-conversion stories are simply the relief they feel at being told what they want to hear.  I have experienced this with members of my own family.  First they are dissatisfied with the Church, then they are bitter, then they start looking elsewhere, then when they find some substitute or freedom that makes them feel good "BOOM" they have their "answer".

People don't get differing answers, they really don't.  What they do is interpret their feelings as being an answer, but our feelings our completely unreliable.  When we feel good about something we think it's from God, when we feel bad, well we think it can't be true.  Our limited feelings cloud truth more often than our limited knowledge.

I think this is funny considering a Mormon says "You know that the book of Mormon is right because you get a good feeling when you read it"

[JLHPROF]

I think this is funny considering a Mormon says "You know that the book of Mormon is right because you get a good feeling when you read it"

 

Well, many Mormons do say that, but it isn't born out by scripture as I explained earlier in the thread.  Knowledge, not feelings, although receiving the knowledge can give us warm feelings.  But the feelings aren't the witness, the knowledge is.

 

How do we gain a testimony of the Book of Mormon?

 

Moroni 10

4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ^aask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not ^btrue; and if ye shall ask with a ^csincere heart, with ^dreal intent, having ^efaith in Christ, he will ^fmanifest the ^gtruth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may ^aknow the ^btruth of all things.

 

How does this manifest?

 

This first Comforter or Holy Ghost has no other effect than pure intelligence. It is more powerful in expanding the mind, enlightening the understanding, and storing the intellect with present knowledge - Joseph Smith TPJS 149

and

When you feel pure intelligence flowing into you, it may give you sudden strokes of ideas, so that by noticing it, you may find it fulfilled the same day or soon; (i.e.) those things that were presented unto your minds by the Spirit of God, will come to pass; and thus by learning the Spirit of God and understanding it, you may grow into the principle of revelation, until you become perfect in Christ Jesus.” - Joseph Smith TPJS 151

[jwhitlock]

Well, many Mormons do say that, but it isn't born out by scripture as I explained earlier in the thread.  Knowledge, not feelings, although receiving the knowledge can give us warm feelings.  But the feelings aren't the witness, the knowledge is.

 

How do we gain a testimony of the Book of Mormon?

 

How does this manifest?

 

Good luck trying to teach this one, JLHPROF. From his other posts on other threads, I don't think he's here to understand.

[Helen47]

"In that same year, 1834, in the midst of many large congregations, the Prophet testified with great power concerning the visit of the Father and the Son, and the conersation he had with them. Never before did I feel such power as was manifested on these occasions.

(Milton V. Backman, Jr., Joseph Smith's First Vision: Confirming Evidences and Contemporary Accounts, 2d ed. rev., p.179)"

 

Whyme, Wes Walters sent us some material years ago which showed this statement was edited after the fact, it got more specific later on. if I dig up his letter I'll give you the exact sources and quote.

[Helen47]

Seneca said, “Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by rulers as useful.”

[Kind Debater]

CurrentlyAlive, here is a page with five testimonies of people converting to Christianity from other religions through dreams/visions: http://morethandreams.org/index.html

Of the conversion stories I've read, most of the miraculous ones are those of people converting from Islam to Christianity, or converting to Christianity in places where they are just hearing the gospel for the first time. Some people theorize that God uses miracles more in places where the church is just getting started. IMO God uses miracles when it's necessary, e.g. I can see where it would be really hard for a devout Muslim to believe in the Trinity without some kind of sign. I've heard testimonies from people in the US/UK that involved a dream or having the feeling to read a specific passage or chapter of Scripture when, in their words, they had no way of knowing that there was a Psalm 139 or chapter such-and-such; so I don't think miraculous testimonies are limited to certain places or times.

[Calm]

KD, I wouldn't be surprised if that was indeed part of the reason for when and where miracles/visions, etc. occur.

[WmLaw]

This first Comforter or Holy Ghost has no other effect than pure intelligence. It is more powerful in expanding the mind, enlightening the understanding, and storing the intellect with present knowledge - Joseph Smith TPJS 149

and

When you feel pure intelligence flowing into you, it may give you sudden strokes of ideas, so that by noticing it, you may find it fulfilled the same day or soon; (i.e.) those things that were presented unto your minds by the Spirit of God, will come to pass; and thus by learning the Spirit of God and understanding it, you may grow into the principle of revelation, until you become perfect in Christ Jesus.” - Joseph Smith TPJS 151

Surely this isn't the only "effect". If so, why is is the Holy Ghost also called a "Comforter"?

Warm feelings, tingling, warm fuzziness, burning in the bosom. How many times have we heard of these as evidence of the Spirit?

[Storm Rider]

Surely this isn't the only "effect". If so, why is is the Holy Ghost also called a "Comforter"?

Warm feelings, tingling, warm fuzziness, burning in the bosom. How many times have we heard of these as evidence of the Spirit?

 

Did not our heart burn within us?  To be in the Master's presence and feel the power of the Spirit bear record; those are choice experiences indeed. The big house across the way if full of people who have had spiritual witnesses of truth and cast it aside when the going is tough; when they are mocked and denigrated for their beliefs, and when they put their faith in the arm of flesh.  How many times do the disciples of Christ must be warned?  Repent, repent, repent; why do we thing there is no need and allow the flesh to overcome the Spirit?  It is like children who run into the wall with their head and then keep on repeating it until they are bloody. Then curse God because he did not prevent them from harm. 

 

Stop running into the wall!  Be still and submit to the Spirit's guidance. Let us be as little children with unquestioning faith that God is there for us. He does not take away the wall from our path, but he helps us to walk around it. 

[Kenngo1969]

I mentioned one earlier involving Anne Wilde, the unofficial spokeswoman for polygamy. I don't know if I'm allowed to provide a link, but it was a Mormon Stories podcast discussing Mormon Fundamentalists. I think we sometimes forget that their are tens of thousands of Mormon Fundamentalists that are using Moroni's promise and receiving answers every bit as real that their branch of Mormonism is the one true church.

With due respect, I realize that many people employ an argument which states that if the Book of Mormon is true, then Joseph Smith is a prophet; if the Book of Mormon is true and Joseph Smith is a prophet, then "main branch" Mormonism is God's Restored Church on the Earth today.  However, Moroni's promise itself relates only to the Book of Mormon: "... would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ if these things [meaning the Book of Mormon] are not true."  You're correct in implying that each seeker after truth who employs Moroni's Promise must interpret the results and decide the implication of those results for himself.

Edited January 5, 2014 by Kenngo1969

[Tacenda]

Kenngo, "if these things are NOT true", this is now bothering me. Why not, "if these things are true"? In my mind it's getting a confirmation that the BoM isn't true.

It never bothered me before my faith crisis, because I didn't really pay attention to it. Do I need a lesson in English grammar?

Edited January 5, 2014 by Tacenda

[omni]

With due respect, I realize that many people employ an argument which states that if the Book of Mormon is true, then Joseph Smith is a prophet; if the Book of Mormon is true and Joseph Smith is a prophet, then "main branch" Mormonism is God's Restored Church on the Earth today. However, Moroni's promise itself relates only to the Book of Mormon: "... would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ if these things [meaning the Book of Mormon] are not true." You're correct in implying that each seeker after truth who employs Moroni's Promise must interpret the results and decide the implication of those results for himself.

They are also praying and receiving confirmations that their prophet is the prophet of God or if they should marry a third wife. It is very common in these communities for the individuals to pray and ask God whom they should may marry.  If asked, they will often relate spiritual confirmations every bit as powerful as ours that they should be involved in polygamous marriages. This isn't happening to a select few who are simply mistaking feelings of lust for the spirit, but is occurring all throughout these communities and has been for generations.

Edited January 5, 2014 by omni

[JLHPROF]

With due respect, I realize that many people employ an argument which states that if the Book of Mormon is true, then Joseph Smith is a prophet; if the Book of Mormon is true and Joseph Smith is a prophet, then "main branch" Mormonism is God's Restored Church on the Earth today.  However, Moroni's promise itself relates only to the Book of Mormon: "... would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ if these things [meaning the Book of Mormon] are not true."  You're correct in implying that each seeker after truth who employs Moroni's Promise must interpret the results and decide the implication of those results for himself.

 

"Moroni's promise" absolutely does NOT only apply to the Book of Mormon or else why would it include verse 5 as part of that promise.  The promise doesn't end at verse 4, but includes the following as part of the same promise before starting a new topic (Gifts of the Spirit):

 

 

5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye mayknow the truth of all things.

6 And whatsoever thing is good is just and true; wherefore, nothing that is good denieth the Christ, but acknowledgeth that he is.

7 And ye may know that he is, by the power of the Holy Ghost; wherefore I would exhort you that ye deny not the power of God; for he worketh by power, according to the faith of the children of men, the same today and tomorrow, and forever.

[JLHPROF]

They are also praying and receiving confirmations that their prophet is the prophet of God or if they should marry a third wife. It is very common in theses communities for the individuals to pray and ask God whom they should may marry. If asked, they will often relate spiritual confirmations every bit as powerful as ours that they should be involved in polygamous marriages. This isn't happening to a select few who are simply mistaking feelings of lust for the spirit, but is occurring all throughout these communities and has been for generations.

 

I have also wondered about this.  It is true that we have seen healings come from priesthood blessings but many other Christian healings have been brought about by faith, and statistically, do our blessings bring about a higher ratio of healing than anyone else's faith blessings?

Do our answers to prayers come from God but others (as you refer to Fundamentalists) answers come from elsewhere?  They also pray, in faith, nothing doubting and wait on the Lord to answer.  And they are answered in a way the Church can't accept.

 

Basically, the question is, "what makes my miracles better than someone else's miracles"?

[omni]

 

Basically, the question is, "what makes my miracles better than someone else's miracles"?

 

No offense, but I don't believe your miracles are better than anyone elses.    My personal feelings on the matter are that God will no more blesses a dying mother through a priesthood blessing than he will a small child praying to Allah for her fever to break.  Why does he performs some miracles and not others?  That's a question well above my pay grade.  

 

I believe that we often mistake random occurrences for miracles.  How often do we hear miraculous stories along the lines of a stray bullet striking an innocent passerby (or car accident, or a fall, etc.) with the bullet missing the spinal cord by mere millimeters.  Often times in these stories the victim has to undergo months or years of recovery--but it's a miracle they lived!  This isn't an indictment on those who choose to see these events as miracles, in fact I would probably be inclined to do so myself if I had experienced something similar.  However when looked at from the view of a dispassionate observer the question must be raised--if God decided to intervene through miraculous means, why didn't he just cause the bullet's trajectory to curve off to the side a few more inches and miss the victim completely?  

 

Through natural explanations we should expect some traffic accidents to cause death, some serious injury, and others to be near misses.  Why is it so often we attribute those near misses to miracles rather than statistical chance?

Edited January 5, 2014 by omni

[jwhitlock]

With due respect, I realize that many people employ an argument which states that if the Book of Mormon is true, then Joseph Smith is a prophet; if the Book of Mormon is true and Joseph Smith is a prophet, then "main branch" Mormonism is God's Restored Church on the Earth today.  However, Moroni's promise itself relates only to the Book of Mormon: "... would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ if these things [meaning the Book of Mormon] are not true."  You're correct in implying that each seeker after truth who employs Moroni's Promise must interpret the results and decide the implication of those results for himself.

 

Bingo!

[jwhitlock]

If asked, they will often relate spiritual confirmations every bit as powerful as ours ...

 

This is a purely subjective statement that cannot be substantiated.

[omni]

This is a purely subjective statement that cannot be substantiated.

Spiritual experiences by their very nature are subjective. How do we know our spiritual experiences are superior to those receiving confirmation that their polygamous marriages are of God?

[JLHPROF]

Spiritual experiences by their very nature are subjective. How do we know our spiritual experiences are superior to those receiving confirmation that their polygamous marriages are of God?

 

That's what I said...

But it's a legitimate question, as far as healing, answers to prayers, guidance and revelation are concerned.

If I got down on my knees and asked if the Pope was God's representative with an open mind and a sincere heart can I be guaranteed that God will tell me "NO"?

If I fasted and prayed whether I should enter into a polygamous marriage and I didn't have my mind made already up, would the Lord tell me not to?

 

I do believe God answers prayers, and I do believe God cannot lie.  But that being said, is it really possible to know for sure that you are right and they are wrong?  Because they already prayed, and were told they were right and you were wrong...

[jwhitlock]

Spiritual experiences by their very nature are subjective. How do we know our spiritual experiences are superior to those receiving confirmation that their polygamous marriages are of God?

 

Exactly. Which was why your statement that such experiences are "every bit as strong as ours" was entirely subjective in nature. It was a value judgment as to their validity that could not be proven.

[omni]

Exactly. Which was why your statement that such experiences are "every bit as strong as ours" was entirely subjective in nature. It was a value judgment as to their validity that could not be proven.

I made my judgement based on the evidence I have seen. If you listen to or read Mormon Fundamentalist's descriptions of their spiritual confirmations, they are generally identical to ours. If you look at their commitment to their religion, they are every bit, if not more so devout than we are. While a population's spiritual experiences can't be quantifiably measured, it can be observed and conclusions can be drawn from those observations.

[jwhitlock]

I made my judgement based on the evidence I have seen. If you listen to or read Mormon Fundamentalist's descriptions of their spiritual confirmations, they are generally identical to ours. If you look at their commitment to their religion, they are every bit, if not more so devout than we are. While a population's spiritual experiences can't be quantifiably measured, it can be observed and conclusions can be drawn from those observations.

 

And because they are personal spiritual experiences, then any comparative conclusions that are drawn are purely subjective in nature.  You made another generalized "we / they" comparison in your statement above; this, again, is also purely subjective. Comparing one person's spiritual experiences to another cannot be effectively done without considering the entire backgrounds of those people, which is virtually impossible. To expand it and make a generalized statement about a particular group can only be subjective and unverifiable in nature.

 

The only objective thing we can attempt to do is to validate the truth claims made by both groups. Spiritual confirmations are for the individuals themselves, and not evidence that someone else can apply to the truth claim itself. Again, this is because they are ultimately unverifiable by someone other than the person experiencing them.

 

So the real question is whether there is a methodology that can be objectively applied in evaluating the truth claims of both groups. Value based comparisons of spiritual experiences is an exercise in futility.

[omni]

 

The only objective thing we can attempt to do is to validate the truth claims made by both groups. Spiritual confirmations are for the individuals themselves, and not evidence that someone else can apply to the truth claim itself. Again, this is because they are ultimately unverifiable by someone other than the person experiencing them.

 

 

 

I completely agree!  The problem is our biggest emphasis when converting others to the church is through spiritual confirmation.  The same spiritual confirmation that tells a 50 year old man in Colorado City that they must take on a fourth wife in order to build up his kingdom in the afterlife or the same spiritual confirmation that tells a young Catholic woman she must remain celibate and dedicate the rest of her life to the church as a nun.

[LittleNipper]

A person is saved by the grace of God through faith that Jesus is the Christ with leading of the Holy Spirit. People who attend a church in a belief that membership or safety in numbers is what counts are ripe for the picking.