And This Pope Rocks On

[bluebell]

The problem is: the lds church does not teach to shun those who are not interested in the lds faith. Just the opposite. My point is: I have to question the experience of saemo. Whatever the lds were doing to her was not taught by the lds church. So, I am a little suspicious.

 

I'm not suspicious.

 

How many times do you (or any LDS person) continue to visit and contact monthly someone who has been taken off of your home or visiting teaching list, especially if you didn't really have a chance to get to know that person very well?

 

I'm guessing that is what Saemo was talking about when she said she was someone's assignment.  As LDS, i think that most of us try really hard to be friendly and to learn to really care about the people that we are asked to help take care of, but forming real relationships take time and effort and a lot of times those never have a chance to develop because VT and HT routes change so often.

 

And when they change, we naturally put all of our efforts into the new relationships we are supposed to be forming, forgetting about the ones that we have left behind in their infancy.

 

But we are trying at least.  

[3DOP]

ISometimes religion just gets in the way of relationships, I wonder if God is just plain sick of it. Don't we as parents just want our children to get along and be close? Why can't we be close to one another? In my walk as an LDS in Utah, I have never had the closeness, just the great acquaintance with them, there always seemed to be a wedge between the non lds or the inactive and I. I couldn't relate and vice versa. I really can't wait for the day that politics & religion aren't "markers" any longer, if it is to ever be.

 

There is this passage in Amos where the rhetorical question is asked, "Can two walk together except they be agreed?"

 

Politics and religion are the matters of most profound importance to virtually everyone. I think family would be included under both categories. Different views of the nature of family and God and the power of the state unite those who share the same ideas. They happily tend to "walk together". We can be amiable and affable with everyone we meet, but we are always feeling things out, hoping to find a kindred spirit. To truly walk together, to share deep and profound convictions seems to be the cement that is necessary for deep and abiding companionship.

 

Religion and politics divide because they are also what unites.

[why me]

I'm not suspicious.

 

How many times do you (or any LDS person) continue to visit and contact monthly someone who has been taken off of your home or visiting teaching list, especially if you didn't really have a chance to get to know that person very well?

 

I'm guessing that is what Saemo was talking about when she said she was someone's assignment.  As LDS, i think that most of us try really hard to be friendly and to learn to really care about the people that we are asked to help take care of, but forming real relationships take time and effort and a lot of times those never have a chance to develop because VT and HT routes change so often.

 

And when they change, we naturally put all of our efforts into the new relationships we are supposed to be forming, forgetting about the ones that we have left behind in their infancy.

 

But we are trying at least.  

You will need to read her comment again. She was not someone's home teaching assignment or visiting teaching assignment. She was referring to herself as a catholic in an lds neighborhood where she became an assignment. Now of course, I am assuming that she used to be lds or has an lds background. So, she may use such a term as assignment as a derogatory expression. But the lds are not taught to shun those who are not interested in the gospel.

[teddyaware]

Missionary work is missionary work. However the use of the word assignment was what prompted me to respond. Saemo saw herself as an assignment for the mormons on her block. And when she wasn't interested, she was shunned. Here is how she stated it:

 

I haven't found I have much in common with Mormon neighbors. From years of trying to fit in, inviting people over, only to be shunned by the same people who act like they don't know me once I've turned down their invitations to go to church. So, I no longer try to be friends with Mormons. Sure, I'm friendly. A new person has come around, because she assigned to. First impression is, I like her, and I'm friendly, but once her assignment changes to someone else I'll never see her again. That is how a relationship works.with LDS in these parts. I'm an assignment. LOL. Can't imagine striking up a conversation about God and the things I think about at Mass or while praying. Like I do with Catholic friends.

 

I can't imagine this happening.

Considering how saemo gets so many things wrong about the Church, it wouldn't at all surprise me if she's seeing all this through a distorted lens as well. Even so, what she should do if this is such an annoyance to her is to come out into the open with all of her complaints and concerns and put the alleged "assignees" out of their misery. If her name is on some ward's roll for continued missionary outreach, in an area where LDS people normally only feel comfortable with LDS friends, she should be honest and forthright with them if she thinks they're being phony and insincere.

 

What she probably doesn't realize, if her perceptions are at all accurate, is that these folks are likely stepping way out of their comfort zones as they try to befriend a non-member who's also critical and belittling of the LDS Church. Though some non-members may try hard not let on as to just how critical of the Church they actually are, they should remember that 90% of communication is non-verbal and a sour attitude toward the Church (such the derision and mockery demonstrated by some non-members right here on this very board) likely shines through loud and clear.

 

Also, saemo may have already said enough negative things about the Church that word of her attitude has gotten out, so the folks "assigned" to befriend her may already feel quite uncomfortable as they try to do so. There are almost always two compelling sides to each story and it would be wise for each of us to walk a mile in the other person's shoes and sincerely try to view things through the other person's eyes before passing  judgment.  

[bluebell]

You will need to read her comment again. She was not someone's home teaching assignment or visiting teaching assignment. She was referring to herself as a catholic in an lds neighborhood where she became an assignment. Now of course, I am assuming that she used to be lds or has an lds background. So, she may use such a term as assignment as a derogatory expression. But the lds are not taught to shun those who are not interested in the gospel.

 

If she used to be LDS, then she would still be on the rolls and would still be assigned H and V teachers if she accepts them and they know about her.

 

I have never seen a ward that assigned nonmembers to ward members, so it would truly be odd for her to be an assignment just because she's Catholic.

 

As for not being taught to shun people not interested, of course we aren't taught that, but that doesn't mean that we don't sometimes unintentionally or subconsciously stop putting effort into relationships with nonmembers who have no interest in the gospel. I've heard far to many people with this same experience ("they never talked to us a day in their lives except the one time they came over and invited us to church, etc...") to doubt that we sometimes struggle with this.

 

But not because we are trying to shun anyone.

[Calm]

 Since there seems to be no disagreement with your position I'll have to accept that

Just haven't had time to disagree yet....I was going to make the same point that you have made here.  In pointing out that saemo is wrong about LDS doctrine no matter being a former LDS, surely that creates a strong possibility that LDS who are converts might also be wrong about their former faith.  We should never assume, imo, that simply because someone is LDS they have everything 'right', we have seen plenty of LDS be wrong about their own faith even.  

[Calm]

 Is it fair that these people can express their opinions about mormonism but I can not write what I feel the pope should be doing?

Is it fair that one child pull another's hair if the other child has intentionally broken her toy?  After all, pulling hair isn't quite as bad as the pain is over a moment and the toy is broken forever.

 

Sure it is 'fair'*.  Doesn't mean it is right though.

 

***if by that you mean the other "gets what they deserved" based on "do unto others what they have done unto you", but that was not what was taught last time I checked the scriptures.

Edited January 4, 2014 by calmoriah

[Calm]

I'm not suspicious.

 

I am not either.  But LDS who live outside of Utah for the vast majority develop their friends among nonLDS.  We certainly did.  So it would seem that it is not the faith that is in any way inhibiting LDS from making friends with nonLDS.  And I don't see how when we moved to Utah our method of making friends changed....and there are a lot of LDS in Utah who have lived out of state for at least a time in their life that was not their mission.  We have tried to be friends with the few nonLDS in our wards, but have not been successful.  I would very much like to be sure what the difference is because this troubles me.

Edited January 4, 2014 by calmoriah

[Calm]

You will need to read her comment again. She was not someone's home teaching assignment or visiting teaching assignment. She was referring to herself as a catholic in an lds neighborhood where she became an assignment. 

And I wouldn't be the least surprised if a woman in the ward was given her (IIRC saemo is female, pardon if I have been mixed up with another) as an unofficial assignment by the RS Presidency.  This may be done so that the leaders can be aware of any needs that this family might have even if they are not LDS.  

 

Bishops have the responsibility for all who live within their ward boundaries, not just members, in my understanding though perhaps I am wrong.  I would assume if I am right that the Bishop talks about these responsibility with the presidencies who would be stewards over family members if they were members when it is practical for them to do so such as in Utah in areas where nonmembers are few, have friends or at least acquaintances among LDS and thus their needs may be known or attempted to be known so that aid can be given if needed.  

 

I know this happened for a family in our ward boundaries who was going through some difficult times...among those who interacted with the family and knew what was going on we were asked (in an unofficial way, not through the bishop but through other friends) to be careful in our dealings with them, to be aware of what personal boundaries they had in discussing their troubles among other things so that we would not be making their burden greater by causing them discomfort.  

 

I will have to ask our RS President if they do so for nonmembers in our ward (though knowing how they give "assignments", I suspect that if they do assign something equivalent but unofficial to "visiting teacher" it is someone who is naturally drawn to the family already so it is more of an encouragement to make their interactions stronger than an assignment).

Edited January 4, 2014 by calmoriah

[Tacenda]

I'm not suspicious.

 

How many times do you (or any LDS person) continue to visit and contact monthly someone who has been taken off of your home or visiting teaching list, especially if you didn't really have a chance to get to know that person very well?

 

I'm guessing that is what Saemo was talking about when she said she was someone's assignment.  As LDS, i think that most of us try really hard to be friendly and to learn to really care about the people that we are asked to help take care of, but forming real relationships take time and effort and a lot of times those never have a chance to develop because VT and HT routes change so often.

 

And when they change, we naturally put all of our efforts into the new relationships we are supposed to be forming, forgetting about the ones that we have left behind in their infancy.

 

But we are trying at least.  

Not to derail, but I'm thinking my family has become an assignment.  The bishop has been made our Home Teacher.  Any of you have experience with this?  Doesn't the bishop usually only visit those that need the most help?  In the physical and spiritual realm?

 

And yes it's true, we tend to visit those on our list and then discontinue when we are assigned new people, but hopefully we are still friendly whenever we run into them.  If everyone continued visiting, the poor people wouldn't have any time with their families, it would be asinine.  But the visits that we make can indeed forge long lasting friendships.  And continuing service opportunities.          

[Robert F. Smith]

I have never seen anyone become an assignment. It would be interesting to find out just where the assignments are given and by whom. Does anyone on this thread have any experience in being assigned someone to convert on your block by a local church leader?

Ward mission leaders are certainly given names to contact, but that has always been the natural thing to do.  Whether the missionaries are called to teach them depends entirely on whether they express an interest.  I have never heard of an ordinary member being given such an "assignment."  The First Presidency message in the last Ensign did have Pres. Eyring telling us that his own experience with trying to convert his friends did not always work out (they sometimes rejected the missionaries), but they always thought highly of Eyring for suggesting that for them.  It meant to them that he valued them as friends and they have remained friends.  We should not fear telling our friends of the meaning of the Gospel for us.  'Course that may mean that they will see you as a Mitt Romneyite . . .  

[Stone holm]

There is this passage in Amos where the rhetorical question is asked, "Can two walk together except they be agreed?"

 

Politics and religion are the matters of most profound importance to virtually everyone. I think family would be included under both categories. Different views of the nature of family and God and the power of the state unite those who share the same ideas. They happily tend to "walk together". We can be amiable and affable with everyone we meet, but we are always feeling things out, hoping to find a kindred spirit. To truly walk together, to share deep and profound convictions seems to be the cement that is necessary for deep and abiding companionship.

 

Religion and politics divide because they are also what unites.

I don't think religion and politics are considered of profound importance to virtually everyone, if the were we would see greater turnouts at elections and would not see a majority of Americans saying they are not affiliated with any religion. For many Americans college and professional sports are of greater interest, and those with jobs and families those are likely to be of greater importance. We should not delude ourselves into thinking that those who post on this Board are at all representative of the general citizenry.

[Yirgacheffe]

I don't think religion and politics are considered of profound importance to virtually everyone, if the were we would see greater turnouts at elections and would not see a majority of Americans saying they are not affiliated with any religion. For many Americans college and professional sports are of greater interest, and those with jobs and families those are likely to be of greater importance. We should not delude ourselves into thinking that those who post on this Board are at all representative of the general citizenry.

That's been my experience, in general people rarely talk about either one, these are two subjects that can disperse a group at a get together pretty darn quick.  Nor I have found that people uninterested in either subject are impressed by people who try to convince them of their politics or get them to join their church.  Even before there was PC religion and politics were off the polite list as topics of discussion.

[3DOP]

I don't think religion and politics are considered of profound importance to virtually everyone, if the were we would see greater turnouts at elections and would not see a majority of Americans saying they are not affiliated with any religion. For many Americans college and professional sports are of greater interest, and those with jobs and families those are likely to be of greater importance. We should not delude ourselves into thinking that those who post on this Board are at all representative of the general citizenry.

 

Thanks for the tip.   

Edited January 5, 2014 by 3DOP

[Stone holm]

That's been my experience, in general people rarely talk about either one, these are two subjects that can disperse a group at a get together pretty darn quick.  Nor I have found that people uninterested in either subject are impressed by people who try to convince them of their politics or get them to join their church.  Even before there was PC religion and politics were off the polite list as topics of discussion.

I do think interest in politics is increasing. We may see interest in religion grow in reaction to the Christian Right having gotten so aggressive, as for the Christian Right Ihink they maxed out their audience about a year or so ago, but we may see some pushback growth of interest sparked by Pope Francis from the Christian Left which has been pretty dormant since the Vietnam war ended. But the vibe I am getting from the rising generation is they have given up on politics and are disgusted with organized religion...at least among the politically apathetic.

[saemo]

The good thing about friends is they know everything about us, and still like us anyway. I sure hope you and I are friends.

Sure thing.

[saemo]

If she used to be LDS, then she would still be on the rolls and would still be assigned H and V teachers if she accepts them and they know about her.

 

I have never seen a ward that assigned nonmembers to ward members, so it would truly be odd for her to be an assignment just because she's Catholic.

 

As for not being taught to shun people not interested, of course we aren't taught that, but that doesn't mean that we don't sometimes unintentionally or subconsciously stop putting effort into relationships with nonmembers who have no interest in the gospel. I've heard far to many people with this same experience ("they never talked to us a day in their lives except the one time they came over and invited us to church, etc...") to doubt that we sometimes struggle with this.

 

But not because we are trying to shun anyone.

Yes, I am on LDS church rolls, and am assigned visiting teachers. I fully realize LDS members are not taught to shun people, but it happens, and I believe most of the time it is subconsciously. Out of sight out of mind. I'm not a person who is remembered for long. LOL. The real, purposeful type of shunning has occurred outside of being an assignment.

Also, my adult non-Mormon daughter who lives with us is on a Mormon roll of some kind. She was contacted by the singles ward leadership I don't know their titles, just a man and woman came around saying they'd like to see her "back". Which, I found very amusing as she is an atheist and has never "been there" in order to come "back". I let them know she is not LDS, never baptized, and they looked very perplexed. Something going on with paperwork somewhere, is what I assume. Now she is assigned the same visiting teacher as I am! LOL.

[saemo]

And I wouldn't be the least surprised if a woman in the ward was given her (IIRC saemo is female, pardon if I have been mixed up with another) as an unofficial assignment by the RS Presidency.  This may be done so that the leaders can be aware of any needs that this family might have even if they are not LDS.  

 

Bishops have the responsibility for all who live within their ward boundaries, not just members, in my understanding though perhaps I am wrong.  I would assume if I am right that the Bishop talks about these responsibility with the presidencies who would be stewards over family members if they were members when it is practical for them to do so such as in Utah in areas where nonmembers are few, have friends or at least acquaintances among LDS and thus their needs may be known or attempted to be known so that aid can be given if needed.  

 

I know this happened for a family in our ward boundaries who was going through some difficult times...among those who interacted with the family and knew what was going on we were asked (in an unofficial way, not through the bishop but through other friends) to be careful in our dealings with them, to be aware of what personal boundaries they had in discussing their troubles among other things so that we would not be making their burden greater by causing them discomfort.  

 

I will have to ask our RS President if they do so for nonmembers in our ward (though knowing how they give "assignments", I suspect that if they do assign something equivalent but unofficial to "visiting teacher" it is someone who is naturally drawn to the family already so it is more of an encouragement to make their interactions stronger than an assignment).

Yes, I am a woman. Interesting perspective, the just checking up to see if we need anything. I'll keep that in mind. Thanks.

[saemo]

Sometimes religion just gets in the way of relationships, I wonder if God is just plain sick of it. Don't we as parents just want our children to get along and be close? Why can't we be close to one another? In my walk as an LDS in Utah, I have never had the closeness, just the great acquaintance with them, there always seemed to be a wedge between the non lds or the inactive and I. I couldn't relate and vice versa. I really can't wait for the day that politics & religion aren't "markers" any longer, if it is to ever be.

Yes, when I was an atheist I called God, The Great Wedge. In order to maintain my relationships with Mormons who I love I have to ignore a lot of what they say, and I keep my beliefs about religion and God to myself. This was a real anger spot for me, as an atheist. As a Catholic, Jesus has told us that He divides us, Father against daughter, husband against wife. It is one of those things that I will never understand why, but it is an undeniable fact of life.

[Stone holm]

Yes, I am on LDS church rolls, and am assigned visiting teachers. I fully realize LDS members are not taught to shun people, but it happens, and I believe most of the time it is subconsciously. Out of sight out of mind. I'm not a person who is remembered for long. LOL. The real, purposeful type of shunning has occurred outside of being an assignment.

Also, my adult non-Mormon daughter who lives with us is on a Mormon roll of some kind. She was contacted by the singles ward leadership I don't know their titles, just a man and woman came around saying they'd like to see her "back". Which, I found very amusing as she is an atheist and has never "been there" in order to come "back". I let them know she is not LDS, never baptized, and they looked very perplexed. Something going on with paperwork somewhere, is what I assume. Now she is assigned the same visiting teacher as I am! LOL.

What may be thought of as shunning may instead just be scheduling issues because of Church callings and family time.

[thesometimesaint]

Yes, when I was an atheist I called God, The Great Wedge. In order to maintain my relationships with Mormons who I love I have to ignore a lot of what they say, and I keep my beliefs about religion and God to myself. This was a real anger spot for me, as an atheist. As a Catholic, Jesus has told us that He divides us, Father against daughter, husband against wife. It is one of those things that I will never understand why, but it is an undeniable fact of life.

 

He does divide. It comes down to what is most important in our lives. If our relationships with mortals is the most important. That is what we get in this life. They end at our death. If our relationship with God is the most important. That is what we get in this life, and the life to come.

[saemo]

Not to derail, but I'm thinking my family has become an assignment.  The bishop has been made our Home Teacher.  Any of you have experience with this?  Doesn't the bishop usually only visit those that need the most help?  In the physical and spiritual realm?

 

And yes it's true, we tend to visit those on our list and then discontinue when we are assigned new people, but hopefully we are still friendly whenever we run into them.  If everyone continued visiting, the poor people wouldn't have any time with their families, it would be asinine.  But the visits that we make can indeed forge long lasting friendships.  And continuing service opportunities.

The aspect of busy lives is a huge factor. Visiting teaching friendships remain intact, I would imagine, for active LDS who see each other often at church events. I never see LDS members. I mean, maybe I do at the local grocery store or gas station, but we don't know each other. When I see former visiting teachers it is most often at the grocery store! I think a lot of people zone out there and don't notice the people around them anyway.

I had a visiting teacher for a long time who wrote me letters. We never met, not once, I have no idea what she looks like. I used to joke with my husband that maybe she was part of the group we passed while on a walk around the neighborhood, who gave us dirty looks and made comments about us because we were smoking. Gasp! Really, I have no idea, but we are not LDS in any way, and so don't fit into the LDS mould of what makes a "good person". We do our thing, and let the neighbors do theirs. I'm friendly to the women who are assigned to me. I realize that I'm probably the last assignment that anyone would want. The inactive member who has never been to church once in 15 years of living in "the ward". So I try to make it as painless for them as possible.

[Calm]

Yes, I am a woman. Interesting perspective, the just checking up to see if we need anything. I'll keep that in mind. Thanks.

That is one of the primary duties of home and visiting teachers.  That is why they want people to actually go to people's homes at least some of the time (and not just meet after church or do a phone call) so they can have the opportunity to observe need if it is there...not to gossip, not to impose, but to gently offer assistance when someone is too shy or uncomfortable to ask for it.

Edited January 5, 2014 by calmoriah

[saemo]

What may be thought of as shunning may instead just be scheduling issues because of Church callings and family time.

I would like to think so, but there are a few occasions where it was overt.

When we first moved in, I got to know the neighbors and invited kids over so my daughter could get to know them. I learned who the Mormon families were by who didn't come over. Which is fine, I respect how parents want to raise their children. In Utah, you learn as a parent to involve your children in activities where there is likely to be more none LDS kids involved. Either Mormons are keeping their children away from yours, or trying to convert yours. That dynamic is a large ingredient towards building adult relationships. You can be sure, when I got a small whiff of someone targeting my daughter for conversion, the relationship ended. Mormon parents I imagine are sniffing out for "bad" influence, which is us!

[blueadept]

Yes, I am on LDS church rolls, and am assigned visiting teachers. I fully realize LDS members are not taught to shun people, but it happens, and I believe most of the time it is subconsciously. Out of sight out of mind. I'm not a person who is remembered for long. LOL. The real, purposeful type of shunning has occurred outside of being an assignment.

Also, my adult non-Mormon daughter who lives with us is on a Mormon roll of some kind. She was contacted by the singles ward leadership I don't know their titles, just a man and woman came around saying they'd like to see her "back". Which, I found very amusing as she is an atheist and has never "been there" in order to come "back". I let them know she is not LDS, never baptized, and they looked very perplexed. Something going on with paperwork somewhere, is what I assume. Now she is assigned the same visiting teacher as I am! LOL.

I remember you telling me all this when we actually met.  I still find the story rather amusing!