Will The Pope Francis Phenomenon Trigger A Return To The Teachings Of Christ

[BCSpace]

In a conversation with one of my sons about Pope Francis, my son indicated, this is kind of new for my generation to have a religious leader actually emphasizing what Christ actually taught. What he meant was that he was accustomed to Religious leaders concentrating almost exclusively on sexual morality, and ignoring the economic injustices surrounding them unlike Christ. It is already being suggested that the Pope is becoming the face of a new civil rights movement. In the same conversation, he indicated that most of the upper level Catholic executives he knew were unhappy with the Pope or ducking for cover. Am wondering what others are hearing.

 

I think the doctrine on the Law of Consecration and other teachings of Christ, especially certain parables like the talents and the unjust steward prevents LDS from going in the direction the Pope has been going.  The Book of Mormon is probably the best guide as it places the responsibility for helping the poor directly on the individual.  Morally, the Proclamation on the Family is our first guide here.

[Stone holm]

I think the doctrine on the Law of Consecration and other teachings of Christ, especially certain parables like the talents and the unjust steward prevents LDS from going in the direction the Pope has been going.  The Book of Mormon is probably the best guide as it places the responsibility for helping the poor directly on the individual.  Morally, the Proclamation on the Family is our first guide here.

Well you would certainly think so, which would suggest perhaps that we should be favoring family based economic systems rather than our current trend towards corporate based economic systems.

[mbh26]

Are you suggesting that the United Order was not inspired? The United Order colonies were under attack by the Federal government which was threatening to confiscate their property, as a result even the successful ones had to dissolve.

 

So you're saying that were it not for US federal government intrusion, the United Order would have created a utopian society with no poor among them.  I thought the reason the United Order didn't work was the fault of the people trying to live it. 

 

I do have more respect for Pope Francis than I would have for Lenin, Clinton, or Obama.  The pope does seem to make an effort to live frugally and practice in his own life what he preaches.  But I would like to ask the pope this question, "Who has done more for the poor, Michael Miliken or Mother Teresa?

 

 

 

Railing against greed is a demonstration of lazy thinking by the left. Who did more for the world, Michael Milken or Mother Teresa? There doesn’t seem to be any contest: Mother Teresa spent her life helping the poor, while Milken was jailed for breaking securities laws.

But Milken’s selfish pursuit of profit helped a lot of people. The ignorant media heaped scorn on “junk bonds,” but Milken’s innovative use of them meant that new ideas flourished. Cell phones are ubiquitous in no small part because Milken financed Craig McCaw.

Chrysler and Mattel were among many companies rescued from bankruptcy by Milken’s junk bonds. He provided capital to more than 3,000 companies, including what are now Barnes & Noble, Time Warner, Mellon Financial, Hasbro and Calvin Klein.

Millions of people have productive jobs today because of Milken’s ideas. Mother Teresa helped many, but Milken helped more by being a capitalist.

Milken’s “junk” helped Ted Turner create CNN. When I interviewed Turner for a TV special I did titled Greed, he admitted he was greedy. He said he competed to get a higher ranking on the Forbes 400 list: “You want to be number one!” he said. But then he said it’s even more important to give to charity. He criticized Warren Buffett for saying he’ll give his money away when he dies. “He should give some away now.” A few weeks later Turner announced that he’d donate $1 billion to UN causes.

http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2004/0202/036.html

 

Perhaps the moderators will call this mixing politics with religion but perhaps the pope shouldn't be mixing politics with religion either. 

Edited December 14, 2013 by mbh26

[thesometimesaint]

So you're saying that were it not for US federal government intrusion, the United Order would have created a utopian society with no poor among them.  I thought the reason the United Order didn't work was the fault of the people trying to live it. 

 

I do have more respect for Pope Francis than I would have for Lenin, Clinton, or Obama.  The pope does seem to make an effort to live frugally and practice in his own life what he preaches.  But I would like to ask the pope this question, "Who has done more for the poor, Michael Miliken or Mother Teresa?

 

 

 

http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2004/0202/036.html

 

Perhaps the moderators will call this mixing politics with religion but perhaps the pope shouldn't be mixing politics with religion either. 

 

You keep your politics out of my religion and I promise to keep my religion out of your politics.

[EllenMaksoud]

That was a statement of the way things are. Not the way things should be.

 

There is absolutely no evidence that governmental programs breed anyone, and even less that they breed poverty among anyone.

Um, very respectfully, I used to be in section 8 housing, and was on aid for about a year after my divorce. It broke me. I went bonkers. I had no car, and I rode the bus, or walked. There are many people who are disabled for various reasons that need and deserve help in what ever way they can be helped, I am happy to see them get it.

 

There are some, of an unknown percentage of this group and I have heard and witnessed their actions. It was not unusual to hear things like, "I need to have another baby so I can get more money". Or, "I'll sell you some of my food stamps so I can buy wine ... dope ... or get me a woman".

 

I would think that private organizations would do a better job than the government in so many ways. On the other hand, I know a Welsh man, who was put into government funded, church operated "care" at age 7 to 12 for wearing his sister's panties. After that he was in a Borstal in Northern Wales until he ran away to London at age 14. To hear him say it, they totally missed the mark with him. Today, he is worth millions.

 

It seems profoundly unjust that Jesus Christ has not returned to run the world.

[Stone holm]

So you're saying that were it not for US federal government intrusion, the United Order would have created a utopian society with no poor among them.  I thought the reason the United Order didn't work was the fault of the people trying to live it. 

 

I do have more respect for Pope Francis than I would have for Lenin, Clinton, or Obama.  The pope does seem to make an effort to live frugally and practice in his own life what he preaches.  But I would like to ask the pope this question, "Who has done more for the poor, Michael Miliken or Mother Teresa?

 

 

 

http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2004/0202/036.html

 

Perhaps the moderators will call this mixing politics with religion but perhaps the pope shouldn't be mixing politics with religion either.

There were failures in the United Order which is only to be expected, but the Federal Government was being motivated by religious bias when it went after the Mormons forcing the dissolution of the last United Order colonies. The motivating factor was to destroy a Church which was practicing non-traditional marriage practices, not the economic system. The United Order style of quasi communism, only works for relatively small homogeneous communities. It is of course a mirror of how economic systems as such work in higher realms, and of course it is Utopian. However, just because the Church had such a system which either failed or was destroyed by religious bigots, does not mean we have to go in the complete opposite direction as a nation. Francis is not advocating communism, but he is criticizing the way capitalism is currently going.

[EllenMaksoud]

The pope made Time's "man of the year"! Maybe he'll make an even bigger impact now.

The Pope does seem to be a man of uncommon goodness. If you looked into his background, perhaps his present day ways are partially due to his past experiences?

[Calm]

 

It seems profoundly unjust that Jesus Christ has not returned to run the world.

Look at the people around the world that are being if not chose, at least accepted as leaders by enough to stay in power.

I think it is mercy that delays the coming of the Lord.

[Stone holm]

The Pope does seem to be a man of uncommon goodness. If you looked into his background, perhaps his present day ways are partially due to his past experiences?

Well, yes and he is a Jesuit with South American exposure, so it probably could have been predicted. However, in a Church which had been heavily right wing since sometime after the Vietnam War it is kind of shocking.

[mbh26]

Francis is not advocating communism, but he is criticizing the way capitalism is currently going.

 

I find it ironic that after six years of rule by the left in the USA and several decades of rule by the left in Europe that income inequality is increasing rather than decreasing.  I don't think the pope accounts for the unintended consequences his theoretical policies would produce. 

 

I don't see the pope calling for increased tax and spend wealth redistribution by government force as a return to Christian values.  I would see a voluntary vow of poverty for high ranking church leadership as a return to Christian values. 

[Stone holm]

I find it ironic that after six years of rule by the left in the USA and several decades of rule by the left in Europe that income inequality is increasing rather than decreasing.  I don't think the pope accounts for the unintended consequences his theoretical policies would produce. 

 

I don't see the pope calling for increased tax and spend wealth redistribution by government force as a return to Christian values.  I would see a voluntary vow of poverty for high ranking church leadership as a return to Christian values.

Don't go political. Liaisez faire capitalism has been bipartisan endeavor. If anything it has increased, we have very low taxes, more trade pacts, and until very recently we have not started to rebuild the regulatory structure that was dismantled in the 1980's and 1990's. For the last six years we have been in gridlock.

[thesometimesaint]

Um, very respectfully, I used to be in section 8 housing, and was on aid for about a year after my divorce. It broke me. I went bonkers. I had no car, and I rode the bus, or walked. There are many people who are disabled for various reasons that need and deserve help in what ever way they can be helped, I am happy to see them get it.

 

There are some, of an unknown percentage of this group and I have heard and witnessed their actions. It was not unusual to hear things like, "I need to have another baby so I can get more money". Or, "I'll sell you some of my food stamps so I can buy wine ... dope ... or get me a woman".

 

I would think that private organizations would do a better job than the government in so many ways. On the other hand, I know a Welsh man, who was put into government funded, church operated "care" at age 7 to 12 for wearing his sister's panties. After that he was in a Borstal in Northern Wales until he ran away to London at age 14. To hear him say it, they totally missed the mark with him. Today, he is worth millions.

 

It seems profoundly unjust that Jesus Christ has not returned to run the world.

 

I'm fine with getting any aid you need to keep body and soul together. It's a there for but the grace of God go I type thing. I've been very blessed in my life, and have more than is sufficient for my needs. But I feel duty bound to help those less blessed than I am. Paying taxes and tithing just helps me do that.

 

The actual percentage of fraud in welfare/food stamps is incredibly small. In the US you must have dependent children under 18 years old, and living with you to qualify for AFDC(Aid For Families with Dependent Children). There are strict financial limits on those eligible. Further you can not be on it more than 2 consecutive years and no more than 5 years in total. 

 

We always hear these undeserving poor "stories" from the Faux News types. The reality is that Food Stamps(SNAP) is less than $1.50 per person per meal. So yes you can illegally spend it on just about anything you want. But the reality is that you become subject to prosecution to the fullest extent of the law, AND you have less to eat. So while perfectly legal to do so go buy that 3lbs lobster, and 2in thick Porterhouse Steak. Then try to eat for the rest of the month.

 

Private organizations are good and I have nothing against most of them. But the needs far outstretch the abilities of all private organizations combined to meet. Even the Church refers members to a governmental agency when the needs of that member demand it.

 

Someone inevitably falls through the cracks. I see the job of us all, including the governments we live under, as trying to make those cracks as small as possible. 

I'm a Social Worker by trade/training but I know full well I can't solve every problem people might have. I just do the best I can, and depend on other people(governments) to do the best they can.

[thesometimesaint]

I find it ironic that after six years of rule by the left in the USA and several decades of rule by the left in Europe that income inequality is increasing rather than decreasing.  I don't think the pope accounts for the unintended consequences his theoretical policies would produce. 

 

I don't see the pope calling for increased tax and spend wealth redistribution by government force as a return to Christian values.  I would see a voluntary vow of poverty for high ranking church leadership as a return to Christian values. 

 

For the last 30 years we've been under Voodoo Economics, and more recently under Austerity programs designed to reduce the size of government to the size that can be drowned in a bathtub to quote Grover Norquist. Not exactly my idea of a leftist. You tell me after you get rid of all government what do you have left, but anarchy. The sad reality is that we have welfare for the rich, and Capitalism for everyone else.

[Stone holm]

For the last 30 years we've been under Voodoo Economics, and more recently under Austerity programs designed to reduce the size of government to the size that can be drowned in a bathtub to quote Grover Norquist. Not exactly my idea of a leftist. You tell me after you get rid of all government what do you have left, but anarchy. The sad reality is that we have welfare for the rich, and Capitalism for everyone else.

I am sure the corporations will step into the void, we already have corporate prisons, and we used Blackwater in the sandbox wars.

[The Nehor]

Jesus did say that the poor would always be with us. The only other thing that could apply I think would be "love others as ourselves".  It seems that what ever the government does is just messed up. Perhaps churches should be helping the poor more? The LDS do a good job. I think the Catholics used to. The rest is on an individual basis with varying success. I think that government programs just breed more poor.

 

To match government assistance programs (after rough calculations for government waste idealistically assuming Churchs can avoid them even though they can't) every congregation in America will need to each raise over a million dollars a year in addition to what they are raising now. So, assuming a ward has 200 active contributing members we need an additional $5000 a year from each member including baptized children to bring in our share.

[The Nehor]

I think the doctrine on the Law of Consecration and other teachings of Christ, especially certain parables like the talents and the unjust steward prevents LDS from going in the direction the Pope has been going.  The Book of Mormon is probably the best guide as it places the responsibility for helping the poor directly on the individual.

 

Except of course when it doesn't with the king commanding people to aid the poor and at times using the government to compel it.

[EllenMaksoud]

Well, yes and he is a Jesuit with South American exposure, so it probably could have been predicted. However, in a Church which had been heavily right wing since sometime after the Vietnam War it is kind of shocking.

My last association with the Catholic Church was when I was still Evangelical. John Hagee and those like him loved to daemonize Catholics and Muslims. I don't know if he bothered with Mormons.  Though I know that the Mormon church has worked on several projects with them.

[thesometimesaint]

My last association with the Catholic Church was when I was still Evangelical. John Hagee and those like him loved to daemonize Catholics and Muslims. I don't know if he bothered with Mormons.  Though I know that the Mormon church has worked on several projects with them.

 

TTBOMK he hasn't. Though politics does make for strange bedfellows.

 

We have.

[thesometimesaint]

The Pope is no Marxist.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/dec/15/pope-francis-defends-criticism-of-capitalism-not-marxist

[MormonFreeThinker]

In a conversation with one of my sons about Pope Francis, my son indicated, this is kind of new for my generation to have a religious leader actually emphasizing what Christ actually taught. What he meant was that he was accustomed to Religious leaders concentrating almost exclusively on sexual morality, and ignoring the economic injustices surrounding them unlike Christ. It is already being suggested that the Pope is becoming the face of a new civil rights movement. In the same conversation, he indicated that most of the upper level Catholic executives he knew were unhappy with the Pope or ducking for cover. Am wondering what others are hearing.

 

Leaders are born. Successful people are successful because of their talents, chance, and effort, not because of their efforts alone. Many that live in poverty do not have the skills and talents to become successful. A talent is not always obtained with practice, it is sometimes just your genetics.

 

Many people simply judge the poor too much, but I admire leaders like Pope Francis that actually care about the poor.  

Edited April 29, 2015 by MormonFreeThinker

[bluebell]

What about those active Catholics (for lack of a better term) who sincerely believe that Pope Francis is not preaching the Gospel of Christ at all?  I know that our own poster 3DOP is such a person.

 

Does their understanding of Catholicism need to be taken into account when discussing the Pope?

[Russell C McGregor]

lvjd66 is correct here and although he's been a little straightforward for some, here's why he's right. 

 

The government has power to enforce by law. That means that we (the government) are going to take your money through taxation and use it how WE see fit, without your permission. And if you don't contrbute we will put you in prison........

 

Your free agency to give out of the goodness of your heart is going to be taken away and we're going to force you to do what we think is good (sound familiar?).

 

Not only that but we're going to set up nice big bureaucracies to administer your money in a terribly ineffcient way, with a ton of waste. Bureaucracies that will grow like a malignant cancer.

 

So for every dollar that you contribute (unwillingly), about a nickel will actually make it to a poor person who will be of our choosing, not yours.

 

Personally, I don't mind a minor social safety net like social security if it was administered properly. But look what they have done to it. It's despicable. Like pigs at the trough. Thieves and robbers.

 

Remember who complained about the expensive spice that was used to anoint the Savior? That it could have been used for the poor, because HE HELD THE PURSE and he was a thief......... 

 

The woman used her free agency to donate the spice as she saw fit, according to what was in her heart and that is the only way we are blessed for our good deeds.

When you're right, you're right.

[Calm]

So this thread is about a year and a half old.

Is there any evidence of an increase in actual involvement of charitable support for the elimination of various social and economic injustices (as opposed to people just calling for them)?

Has the attention given to Pope Francis' increased the doing of God's word and not just the teaching of it?

[3DOP]

What about those active Catholics (for lack of a better term) who sincerely believe that Pope Francis is not preaching the Gospel of Christ at all?  I know that our own poster 3DOP is such a person.

 

Does their understanding of Catholicism need to be taken into account when discussing the Pope?

 

Thanks bluebell. I appreciate your seeing a possibility of other ways of interpreting the "Francis Phenomenon".  

 

The nominal Catholics and non-Catholics who praise Pope Francis cannot help but despise the first 19 and a half centuries of the successors of St. Peter even though along with Pope Bergoglio, they don't seem to care about what was believed or taught . The world begins in the latter half of the 20th Century. Who that likes Pope Francis also likes any other pre-Vatican II pope? Pius IX? No. Leo XIII? No way. Pius X? Impossibly backwards. I invite those who admire Pope Francis to name another of the 260 popes not named Paul VI, John XXIII, or John Paul that they also admire.

[Damien the Leper]

I'm a fan of the Pope behind the Council of Trent, Rory. I love that council. If only it could be more strictly enforced.