Pope Francis Takes On Capitalism And Inequality

[Stone holm]

 Okay, so Pope Francis is at it again.  Fairly sure the Vatican is avidly searching for more erasers.  Exactly what did the Pope mean in his recent broadside against capitalism?

 

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/11/26/pope-francis-rips-capitalism-and-trickle-down-economics-to-shreds-in-new-policy-statement/

 

 

[thesometimesaint]

He is talking about unfettered capitalism without the concurrent social responsibility to the poor.

[teddyaware]

Okay, so Pope Francis is at it again.  Fairly sure the Vatican is avidly searching for more erasers.  Exactly what did the Pope mean in his recent broadside against capitalism?

 

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/11/26/pope-francis-rips-capitalism-and-trickle-down-economics-to-shreds-in-new-policy-statement/

Capitalism (I prefer the expression "free enterprise) is not the problem. It is carnality, sensuality, pride, selfishness, lack of mercy, lack of compassion, and the devilishness inherent in the fallen nature that is at the root of the problem. The free enterprise system, functioning in a nation largely populated by good, decent, honest and charitable people, can be a smashing success.

The problem is that when wicked behavior distorts and perverts the righteous ideals and noble purposes of a free enterprise system, under a constitutional republican form of government, too many immediately want to throw the baby out with the bathwater in an attempt to institute justice by abridging free agency through socialist means. Socialist means that are applied more and more as the system continues to inevitably fail (as a consequence of continued wickedness) despite continued government authored attempts to establish social and economic injustice. Finally, more and more government edicts and regulations are desperately applied in the groundless hope they'll finally begin to work until the people end up living under tyranny.

Therefore, the root cause of all societal problems under a system of free enterprise is wickedness, not the free enterprise system itself. This is why John Adams said:

"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."

Edited November 26, 2013 by teddyaware

[Ahab]

Capitalism (I prefer the expression "free enterprise) is not the problem. It is carnality, sensuality, pride, selfishness, lack of mercy, lack of compassion, and the devilishness inherent in the fallen nature that is at the root of the problem. The free enterprise system, functioning in a nation largely populated by good, decent, honest and charitable people, can be a smashing success.

The problem is that when wicked behavior distorts and perverts the righteous ideals and noble purposes of a free enterprise system, under a constitutional republican form of government, too many immediately want to throw the baby out with the bathwater in an attempt to institute justice by abridging free agency through socialist means. Socialist means that are applied more and more as the system continues to inevitably fail (as a consequence of continued wickedness) despite continued government authored attempts to establish social and economic injustice. Finally, more and more government edicts and regulations are desperately applied in the groundless hope they'll finally begin to work until the people end up living under tyranny.

Therefore, the root cause of all societal problems under a system of free enterprise is wickedness, not the free enterprise system itself. This is why John Adams said:

"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."

So in America as it is we should either develop some other system or ship the wicked people off to some other country.

[thesometimesaint]

If all men were angels, no government would be necessary. If all men were devils, no government would be possible.

[Ahab]

If all men were angels, no government would be necessary. If all men were devils, no government would be possible.

If if if.... 

 

I know how to dream, too.

 

What can we do NOW to make things better for everyone on this planet ???

[bdouglas]

This is an interesting pope. What he says about capitalism, etc., is what you'd expect from someone who's spent a lot of time working in the slums of Rio (I think that's where it was, anyway). LDS thinking, a while back, was not much different. The following, I am told, is an "Apostolic Circular", signed by Brigham Young, the rest of the first presidency and Twelve, date 1875:

 

THE EXPERIENCE OF MANKIND has shown that the people of communities and nations among whom wealth is the most equally distributed, enjoy the largest degree of liberty, are the least exposed to tyranny and oppression and suffer the least from luxurious habits which beget vice. Under such a system, carefully maintained there could be no great aggregations of either real or personal property in the hands of a few; especially so while the laws, forbidding the taking of usury or interest for money or property loaned, continued in force. 

Edited November 26, 2013 by bdouglas

[thesometimesaint]

If if if.... 

 

I know how to dream, too.

 

What can we do NOW to make things better for everyone on this planet ???

Make a good quality product, sell it at a reasonable price, I will buy it. We'll both be happy. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/30/costco-profits_n_3359033.html?utm_hp_ref=business

 

Right now? We can't make everything better for everyone unless the Lord comes back today. What we can do is make and enforce the rules of conduct that level the playing field more equitably. For instance if a company uses the state to make up for its poor treatment of its employees then the state should send the bill to that company for the difference.

[teddyaware]

So in America as it is we should either develop some other system or ship the wicked people off to some other country.

No. Repent or suffer the immutable, inevitable consequences. Trying to bypass this step through government intervention usually only compounds the problems. It all distills down to the following very simple formula set forth by Nephi, the son of Helaman, who said:

28 "And except ye repent ye shall perish; yea, even your lands shall be taken from you, and ye shall be destroyed from off the face of the earth." (Helaman 7)

Edited November 26, 2013 by teddyaware

[ERayR]

If if if.... 

 

I know how to dream, too.

 

What can we do NOW to make things better for everyone on this planet ???

 

Missionary work.

[thesometimesaint]

No. Repent or suffer the immutable, inevitable consequences. Trying to bypass this step through government intervention usually only compounds the problems. It all distills down to the following very simple formula set forth by Nephi, the son of Helaman, who said:

28 "And except ye repent ye shall perish; yea, even your lands shall be taken from you, and ye shall be destroyed from off the face of the earth." (Helaman 7)

See D&C 134.

[Ahab]

Make a good quality product, sell it at a reasonable price, I will buy it. We'll both be happy. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/30/costco-profits_n_3359033.html?utm_hp_ref=business

 

Right now? We can't make everything better for everyone unless the Lord comes back today. What we can do is make and enforce the rules of conduct that level the playing field more equitably. For instance if a company uses the state to make up for its poor treatment of its employees then the state should send the bill to that company for the difference.

Ugh. What exactly is a "reasonable price" for an act of charity?  Why would I want to made a good product and "sell" it to you?  If I let you "buy" it I would be the one offering charity to you.  Your money has no value to me, and my work is priceless, even though some people want to try to put a price on it.  And so is your work.  And so is the work of our Father.  It's worth more than anyone can pay with any amount of money and yet we sometimes give it away for someone who has some "money", as if their money is actually worth something to us.  But it's just paper, or numbers in a bank account.  It's all a big farce, and yet so many in the world still want to try to get people to believe it's worth something because that way they'll have a way to get what you can make for them.  I'd rather that we just deal charitably with each other without expecting or asking for or even taking any money.  But I suppose you don't agree because you haven't learned what I have learned about money and you still want to value your money.

[Rivers]

There's going to be evil people no matter what government or economic system we use. We just need to find a way to eradicate evil.

[Ahab]

There's going to be evil people no matter what government or economic system we use. We just need to find a way to eradicate evil.

Evil will always exist, just as Righteousness will always exist.  They're 2 sides to the same coin, with everything having its opposite.

 

What we need to do is separate the good people from the evil people, after giving the evil people sufficient time to repent from their sins.

 

I suppose we'll just have to put up with it for a little while longer.  Hopefully our Savior will be coming back soon, though.  We can all choose to repent from any of our sins right now.

[thesometimesaint]

Ugh. What exactly is a "reasonable price" for an act of charity?  Why would I want to made a good product and "sell" it to you?  If I let you "buy" it I would be the one offering charity to you.  Your money has no value to me, and my work is priceless, even though some people want to try to put a price on it.  And so is your work.  And so is the work of our Father.  It's worth more than anyone can pay with any amount of money and yet we sometimes give it away for someone who has some "money", as if their money is actually worth something to us.  But it's just paper, or numbers in a bank account.  It's all a big farce, and yet so many in the world still want to try to get people to believe it's worth something because that way they'll have a way to get what you can make for them.  I'd rather that we just deal charitably with each other without expecting or asking for or even taking any money.  But I suppose you don't agree because you haven't learned what I have learned about money and you still want to value your money.

 

Charity a pearl of great price.

 

If you didn't make a good product. I'm not likely to buy it. Kinda like that by their fruits ye shall know them.

 

Your work may to be priceless to you. To me money is just a means of exchange. I work for money about $75 per hour. So I can buy the things my family and I need.

 

The price of discipleship is high. All of our time, talents, energies, and abilities, everything God has blessed us to have, and may have, is consecrated to God. One that of my own free will and choosing have done.

[Ahab]

Charity a pearl of great price.

 

If you didn't make a good product. I'm not likely to buy it. Kinda like that by their fruits ye shall know them.

 

Your work may to be priceless to you. To me money is just a means of exchange. I work for money about $75 per hour. So I can buy the things my family and I need.

 

The price of discipleship is high. All of our time, talents, energies, and abilities, everything God has blessed us to have, and may have, is consecrated to God. One that of my own free will and choosing have done.

Yes, money is used as means of exchange, but we can exchange things with each other without any need for any money.  Or either one of us could just give something to the other without expecting or asking for any kind of exchange.  Why wait until "money" comes into play?  Why should any of us regulate our gifts to each other because of some perceived need for the use of some "money"?  Think of a world where people just gave things to other people, simply because of charity?  But the selfish man says what would I get out of it?  Why should I just give my things away?  Do you also require money when giving things to your own family?  I know we need to be prudent with how we go about sharing our resources, but we don't need to require any money when we're living the principle of charity.  I'm limited only because I now have limited resources to share with other people.

[thesometimesaint]

Yes, money is used as means of exchange, but we can exchange things with each other without any need for any money.  Or either one of us could just give something to the other without expecting or asking for any kind of exchange.  Why wait until "money" comes into play?  Why should any of us regulate our gifts to each other because of some perceived need for the use of some "money"?  Think of a world where people just gave things to other people, simply because of charity?  But the selfish man says what would I get out of it?  Why should I just give my things away?  Do you also require money when giving things to your own family?  I know we need to be prudent with how we go about sharing our resources, but we don't need to require any money when we're living the principle of charity.  I'm limited only because I now have limited resources to share with other people.

 

I don't know as we'll need money in Heaven, but it is undeniably useful here in this life. I don't believe using money for the purpose for which it was intended for as being selfish. It isn't money itself that is root evil it is the love of money. I'm neither poor nor rich in terms of money. I'm at the point in my life that If I were suddenly given a million dollars I'd fix up my house, and give the vast majority of it to my kids, and Grandkids.

[Ahab]

I don't know as we'll need money in Heaven, but it is undeniably useful here in this life. I don't believe using money for the purpose for which it was intended for as being selfish. It isn't money itself that is root evil it is the love of money. I'm neither poor nor rich in terms of money. I'm at the point in my life that If I were suddenly given a million dollars I'd fix up my house, and give the vast majority of it to my kids, and Grandkids.

Yes, money is being used in this world and it is useful for what money can buy, including the work of other people, but there are people in this world who don't have any money, or much money to speak of, and they are often left out in the world exchange of all of our goods and services.  I'm sure our Father isn't happy about that.  He created this planet for all of us who live here, and yet some of us act as if some of what's here is ours.

 

Anyway, I'm bowing out of the thread now.  I've said my piece, and there are other angles to this thread that I would like to see explored. 

[teddyaware]

Yes, money is being used in this world and it is useful for what money can buy, including the work of other people, but there are people in this world who don't have any money, or much money to speak of, and they are often left out in the world exchange of all of our goods and services.  I'm sure our Father isn't happy about that.  He created this planet for all of us who live here, and yet some of us act as if some of what's here is ours.

 

Anyway, I'm bowing out of the thread now.  I've said my piece, and there are other angles to this thread that I would like to see explored.

I agree with this. But one thing to be aware of is that the adversary is an expert at pointing an indignant finger at all the world's injustices and then goes about craftily offering the kinds of solutions that were rejected by the Father in the war in heaven.

[Stone holm]

No. Repent or suffer the immutable, inevitable consequences. Trying to bypass this step through government intervention usually only compounds the problems. It all distills down to the following very simple formula set forth by Nephi, the son of Helaman, who said:

28 "And except ye repent ye shall perish; yea, even your lands shall be taken from you, and ye shall be destroyed from off the face of the earth." (Helaman 7)

 

Strange how that concept only seems to apply to sexual issues where its seemingly fine to have governmental intrusion, but not as to economic issues.

[Ahab]

Strange how that concept only seems to apply to sexual issues where its seemingly fine to have governmental intrusion, but not as to economic issues.

Uh, have you ever heard of the Republican party?  They don't like government intruding on how they spend their money, either.

 

Not that I'm tring to make this thread go political, but hey, you started it by talking about government intrusion.

[Stone holm]

This Pope seems to be echoing a lot of the things that Western Hemisphere Jesuits seemed to be acting on during the Viet Nam war era, that voice of the Catholic Church later seemed to get muffled.  I don't believe that he is the first Pope to speak out on this issue.  Mormon leadership in the 19th Century seemed to speak out on this issue as well, but that seems a bit muffled now with unrestricted free marketism being elevated to almost Scriptural status by many Mormons.

[Rob Osborn]

I agree with this. But one thing to be aware of is that the adversary is an expert at pointing an indignant finger at all the world's injustices and then goes about craftily offering the kinds of solutions that were rejected by the Father in the war in heaven.

Interesting but not sure where you re going with this. To me its interesting that in the BoM recorded history the cause of wickedness in society almost always revolved around pride and setting up social class amongst the people. That being Satans true works, it is easy to see it in the world. Satan wants a system that takes from the poor and gives to the rich. He wants social class, he wants greed, he wants secret combinations, murderers, he wants a pyramid scheme of wickedness built on the social class. Satan will only accuse the good in society not the bad.

A good example of Satan's works are found in the Bom after Christs visit to the Americas when people again began to be corrupt. Here are Satan's works-

24 And now, in this two hundred and first year there began to be among them those who were lifted up in pride, such as the wearing of costly apparel, and all manner of fine pearls, and of the fine things of the world.

25 And from that time forth they did have their goods and their substance no more common among them.

26 And they began to be divided into classes; and they began to build up churches unto themselves to get gain, and began to deny the true church of Christ. (4th Nephi 24-26)

I have neighbors who call themselves the children of Christ and yet I see this same class distinction, this same pride and lifting up of themselves. I have other neighbors who make good money and yet there is no pride, no class distinction etc. The biggest difference I see in the two is that one wants the glory of the world and the other has genuine love and concern for his fellow man. If we are to become the disciples of Christ we must forsake our riches for the kingdom of heaven. It is the only way that we can build Zion. Satan doesnt want equality, he doesnt even want charity on any level, even if it is a governmental law. His system only works with class distinction, greed, robbery, lies, etc. Its all about being uncharitable, prideful and greedy.

[pmccombs1]

The problem is that when wicked behavior distorts and perverts the righteous ideals and noble purposes of a free enterprise system, under a constitutional republican form of government, too many immediately want to throw the baby out with the bathwater in an attempt to institute justice by abridging free agency through socialist means. Socialist means that are applied more and more as the system continues to inevitably fail (as a consequence of continued wickedness) despite continued government authored attempts to establish social and economic injustice. Finally, more and more government edicts and regulations are desperately applied in the groundless hope they'll finally begin to work until the people end up living under tyranny.

 

I'm sure this pope would be just as critical of socialism as he is of capitalism.  Catholic social teaching tends not to care for either.

Edited November 26, 2013 by pmccombs1

[Rob Osborn]

Under Satans plans there must be rich and poor. Any system moving towards equality is against Satans desires.