Pope Francis Takes On Capitalism And Inequality

[mfbukowski]

I'd love for 3DOP to pitch in, but it is my understanding that even the more conservative popes vocally condemned social inequality of the sort Francis decried. In other words, while I say good for him, I think that popular wisdom and media portrayal misses a good deal of the context.

Rory is a pretty conservative Catholic and this probably does not sit well with him, but as you suggest, we might all be missing the full context of the remarks.

[mfbukowski]

Wow that sounds an awful lot like .... and Nietsche.

CFR on Nietzsche.

[mfbukowski]

I have a preference that popes set their main focus on the next life. We know that as far as this life goes, "the poor you have with you always."  As for how this life should go, I don't see that the Lord sent any revealed dogma that refutes the idea that individuals should be free to buy and sell what they will with whom they will except it should involve the purchase or sale of something that is immoral apart from economic theories.  

 

I agree that capitalism is wrong. Capitalism introduces government into the market place. Someone else already mentioned that they prefer the term "free market". I INSIST upon the term free market. The free market doesn't look to government to establish policies that favor land, labor, or capital. Unfortunately, in the minds of most today, including political conservatives, and apparently the South American pope, capitalism is synonymous with free markets. That is completely false. Free marketeers don't look for favors from government as capitalists do.

 

I don't see that there is any revelation which says that government should favor any of the three forms of wealth. All wealth is found either in land, labor, or capital. This economic trinity represents morally acceptable, and precious commodities. The Catholic principles of justice are directed to love of neighbour and avoidance of the commandment against stealing. These principles, as I understand them, are compatible with freedom to trade capital, labor, and land without interference from governments. I don't guess that the South American pope would agree that the most effective thievery occurs when governmental policies are enacted to favor one form of wealth over others to the benefit of the few or the many. He seems to be an anti-capitalist. I am neither anti-capitalist nor capitalist. I INSIST upon the moral value of all three forms of wealth without preference. Like almost everybody in all seven continents, the pope seems to think that governments should intervene in the economy to favor or oppose one or the other forms of wealth. It is a classic modern folly.

 

With all due respect to His Holiness, I think his youth and his environment are speaking here, and not his successorship in the See of Peter.

 

3DOP

[Stone holm]

CFR on Nietzsche.

Man and Superman

[thesometimesaint]

The Pope wasn't talking about Capitalism. He was talking about Unfettered Capitalism.

[Storm Rider]

I don't even think he was talking about any form of capitalism; he was talking about greed. There is not a single form of government recognized today that does not create haves and have nots. 

[thesometimesaint]

Capitalism is based on the acquisition of wealth in the form of money. It of necessity employes greed. That is why we put fetters on it.

[saemo]

I'm still reading the whole encyclical, but my opinion is that the Pope' s comments on capitalism have been taken out of context.

He isn't speaking out against capitalism, but against an economy that excludes people. His point being, the poor are not on the fringes or disenfranchised from the global economy, they are excluded from it. They are not exploited but the leftovers of consumerism. He also points out the indifference towards the excluded is unacceptable.

I don't see that he is saying capitalism needs to be scrapped, but that those who have the ability to help the excluded have an obligation, in the joy of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, to do so. Our joy in the Gospel not being found in exclusion to an economic class of people, or indifference to suffering.

Edited November 30, 2013 by saemo

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Yes, interesting, and when it has the opportunity it will use quasi slave labor in a Communist police state in lieu of free workers in a democracy. Capitalism, rather free markets are very good allocators of resources provided wealth does not become over concentrated and value or cost is assigned to the commons. Unfortunately, when unrestrained it tends to over concentrate wealth at which time the "unseen hand" becomes visible and the efficient allocation of resources ceases and is overwhelmed by "investments" which do not distribute value or cause productivity, and if a cost is not assigned to consumption cost of the commons it can become highly destructive. In order for the unseen hand to do its magic, the government has to intervene to prevent the over concentration of wealth and to assign a cost to the consumption of the commons. The failure of some to understand that the concept of subsidiarity must be applied not only to government, but also to corporate organizations which become too large has been a fateful mistake both for human prosperity in general, but also the planet.

 

OK,everybody.  Enough politics.

To get it back to what the Pope said and the need for capitalism in the world. The Church (our Church) is able to fund, the poor, Churches (every Church building is funded before built), Temples (the same applies already funded) and makes billions by being good stewards, by using funds, via capitalism to do even more good. The more successful capitalist who are faithful members the more tithing and fast offerings at the disposal the Church has...not to mention the education fund by with the Church is able to pay for education for missionaries who return to poor Nations and learn how to start businesses, thus employing others.

[Tacenda]

http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/mormons-monterey-interfaith-thanksgiving

 

 

This is great news!  The quote below is at the end of this article.  Hope this is going to happen all over the world soon.  Yippee!

 

“This is a thing I've been praying for for a long time, that the unity of the churches of God come together and do something to help the poor,” he says. “I think this is the start of a new chapter for all of us.”

[thesometimesaint]

To get it back to what the Pope said and the need for capitalism in the world. The Church (our Church) is able to fund, the poor, Churches (every Church building is funded before built), Temples (the same applies already funded) and makes billions by being good stewards, by using funds, via capitalism to do even more good. The more successful capitalist who are faithful members the more tithing and fast offerings at the disposal the Church has...not to mention the education fund by with the Church is able to pay for education for missionaries who return to poor Nations and learn how to start businesses, thus employing others.

 

The Church isn't built upon Capitalism. I receive neither tangible economic product or service from the Church, nor do I expect any. I give to the Church because it makes me feel better. It is part and parcel of my religion.

 

Please let's not tie our religion to money lest we become like the Zoramites.

Edited November 30, 2013 by thesometimesaint

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

The Church isn't built upon Capitalism. I receive neither tangible economic product or service from the Church, nor do I expect any. I give to the Church because it makes me feel better. It is part and parcel of my religion.

 

Please let's not tie our religion to money lest we become like the Zoramites.

I did not suggest the Church is based on capitalism, I pointed out how it prospers from it and uses it to further it's causes. TSS, I have never been misunderstood by a poster more than you misunderstood what I said...I assume you were addresses my post, if not I apologize, if so I am bewildered. If I am indeed mistaken, this is why the quote function is very helpful. But you made a great point that we give because it is a part of our religion...but to point something out, it does make us feel better as as obeying any commandment makes us feel better...hopefully. Also you are right the Church is not based on capitalism, but it does and was based on scriptural and America ideas.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/mormons-monterey-interfaith-thanksgiving

 

 

This is great news!  The quote below is at the end of this article.  Hope this is going to happen all over the world soon.  Yippee!

 

“This is a thing I've been praying for for a long time, that the unity of the churches of God come together and do something to help the poor,” he says. “I think this is the start of a new chapter for all of us.”

We (LDS) have joined with many other Churches in added others, especially those harmed in (or via) by natural disaster. It is the requirement of being Christlike behavior. If we fail it this endeavor, God will hold us accountable and will raise up another in it's place. We have been warned many times in scripture. His will, will be done or he will raise up another Church, who will.

[thesometimesaint]

I did not suggest the Church is based on capitalism, I pointed out how it prospers from it and uses it to further it's causes. TSS, I have never been misunderstood by a poster more than you misunderstood what I said...I assume you were addresses my post, if not I apologize, if so I am bewildered. If I am indeed mistaken, this is why the quote function is very helpful. But you made a great point that we give because it is a part of our religion...but to point something out, it does make us feel better as as obeying any commandment makes us feel better...hopefully. Also you are right the Church is not based on capitalism, but it does and was based on scriptural and America ideas.

 

I think the Church would prosper under any economic theory there is. I never said it makes us better, it just makes me feel better. I'm not so jingoistic, a good idea is a good idea regardless of whom it comes from.

[Calm]

http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/mormons-monterey-interfaith-thanksgiving

 

 

This is great news!  The quote below is at the end of this article.  Hope this is going to happen all over the world soon.  Yippee!

 

“This is a thing I've been praying for for a long time, that the unity of the churches of God come together and do something to help the poor,” he says. “I think this is the start of a new chapter for all of us.”

We were doing this for years up in Canada prior to moving.  It is easy enough to start (well, the leaders did have one organization turn down the help as "not Christian", but others stepped up begging LDS to join in), just get together with others in the ward and go do it.  From what I saw there, it quickly becomes a ward, then stake project.  But someone has to be willing to take the first step and not just sit back and say "I am waiting for the Church to do something about this".

[mfbukowski]

Man and Superman

What are you talking about? 

 

The George Bernard Shaw play???  There is no book by Nietzsche by that title.

 

Have you ever read ANY Nietzsche?  Are you saying that Nietzsche actually WAS the basis for Nazi ideology?  This idea has only been promulgated among those have a cartoonish understanding of Nietzsche.

 

On the other hand his idea of Ubermensch has an entirely different meaning

Wikpedia gets it mostly right:

 

Zarathustra ties the Übermensch to the death of God. While this God was the ultimate expression of other-worldly values and the instincts that gave birth to those values, belief in that God nevertheless did give meaning to life for a time. 'God is dead' means that the idea of God can no longer provide values. With the sole source of values no longer capable of providing those values, there is a real chance of nihilism prevailing.

Zarathustra presents the Übermensch as the creator of new values. In this way, it appears as a solution to the problem of the death of God and nihilism. If the Übermensch acts to create new values within the moral vacuum of nihilism, there is nothing that this creative act would not justify. Alternatively, in the absence of this creation, there are no grounds upon which to criticize or justify any action, including the particular values created and the means by which they are promulgated.

In order to avoid a relapse into Platonic idealism or asceticism, the creation of these new values cannot be motivated by the same instincts that gave birth to those tables of values. Instead, they must be motivated by a love of this world and of life. Whereas Nietzsche diagnosed the Christian value system as a reaction against life and hence destructive in a sense, the new values which the Übermensch will be responsible for will be life-affirming and creative.

In fact, in my opinion, and in my way of seeing things, Nietzsche was talking about what we would call "The Apostasy"- the fact that the sectarian concept of "god" as a Greek Platonic Ideal was dead- and that what was needed was a philosophy of morality which was life-affirming; indeed I see that as the Mormon idea of God

 

For me, God as Mormons see him IS an "Ubermensch"- and exaltation is the key for all of us becoming like him, because mankind is inherently good, and not infused with original sin as the sectarian creedalists believe.

 

Übermensch in English

The first translation, published in 1896, of Thus Spoke Zarathustra into English was by Alexander Tille, who translated Übermensch as Beyond-Man. In the Thomas Common translation, published in 1909, however, Übermensch was rendered as "Superman". Common was anticipated in this by George Bernard Shaw, who had done the same in his 1903 stage play Man and Superman. Walter Kaufmann lambasted this translation in the 1950s for two reasons: first, its near or total failure to capture the nuance of the German word über (while the Latin prefix super- means above or beyond, the English use of the prefix or its use as an adjective has altered the meaning); and second, a rationale which Fredric Wertham railed against even more vehemently in Seduction of the Innocent, for promoting an eventual puerile^{[citation needed]} identification with the comic-book character Superman. His preference was to translate Übermensch as "overman". Scholars continue to employ both terms, some simply opting to reproduce the German word.^[1][2]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%9Cbermensch#The_.C3.9Cbermensch_and_the_Nazis

 

Incidentally, Ayn Rand is not taught in any philosophy department I have ever seen.  She is seen as a novelist.

[mfbukowski]

I'm still reading the whole encyclical, but my opinion is that the Pope' s comments on capitalism have been taken out of context.

He isn't speaking out against capitalism, but against an economy that excludes people. His point being, the poor are not on the fringes or disenfranchised from the global economy, they are excluded from it. They are not exploited but the leftovers of consumerism. He also points out the indifference towards the excluded is unacceptable.

I don't see that he is saying capitalism needs to be scrapped, but that those who have the ability to help the excluded have an obligation, in the joy of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, to do so. Our joy in the Gospel not being found in exclusion to an economic class of people, or indifference to suffering.

Yes, it's true.

 

I actually gave you a rep point for that one. Hell has just frozen over. 

Edited December 1, 2013 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

The reality is that communism just plain does not work, call it what you will.

 

It's bad pragmatism.   If there is no incentive for people to work, they won't.

[mfbukowski]

We were doing this for years up in Canada prior to moving.  It is easy enough to start (well, the leaders did have one organization turn down the help as "not Christian", but others stepped up begging LDS to join in), just get together with others in the ward and go do it.  From what I saw there, it quickly becomes a ward, then stake project.  But someone has to be willing to take the first step and not just sit back and say "I am waiting for the Church to do something about this".

Thanks.

Already forwarded this to our SP.

[mfbukowski]

http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/mormons-monterey-interfaith-thanksgiving

 

 

This is great news!  The quote below is at the end of this article.  Hope this is going to happen all over the world soon.  Yippee!

 

“This is a thing I've been praying for for a long time, that the unity of the churches of God come together and do something to help the poor,” he says. “I think this is the start of a new chapter for all of us.”

OOPS  - Thank YOU!

[mfbukowski]

It seems like the big beef some Latter-day Saints have with the distribution of wealth or social welfare programs is the notion that our agency is being violated by the collection and distribution of personal wealth by government.

What happens when such collection, and distribution is supported by the public, even those with substantial wealth? Is it a loss of agency when the populace chooses government as the means whereby the welfare (well being) of all is accomplished?

Such is largely the case in Canada with it's healthcare system. By and by most Canadians support it's role and power in society. Cries that our agency has been violated would fall on death ears. We chose this democratically, we support the idea, and while we recognize the problems we would not solve them by doing away with public healthcare.

Once the question of agency is answered then the real issue is the means or organization such distribution is accomplished, or the question of whether or not government should be responsible.

I just wonder why Canadians come here for health care, including, I think, the Prime Minister, if I have heard the story correctly.

[Calm]

I was wondering....big points to you for passing it on to your SP.

 

Up in Canada, once a month our ward members would assemble sandwiches in our kitchen, my memory is now dim so I can't remember if they rotated through the wards each week or if the Interfaith guys in charge just had us do it once a month, I just remember the announcements for "next Sunday morning, be at...." and such things.  Some places made sure the Mormons were in the back so they couldn't preach to the people coming in, but most either didn't have a problem or just took our word that we wouldn't proselyte at all.  I am glad to see that more publicity is being given to these kinds of actions so that it will spread even further throughout the Church.  I feel bad when members think they have to wait for something official to come down or something has to be "Mormon" before going out and getting involved in their community.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

I think the Church would prosper under any economic theory there is. I never said it makes us better, it just makes me feel better. I'm not so jingoistic, a good idea is a good idea regardless of whom it comes from.

I disagree, at least not as well.

[Calm]

I just wonder why Canadians come here for health care, including, I think, the Prime Minister, if I have heard the story correctly.

Depending on the part of the country there might be a waiting period plus there might be somethings that are better down here just like there are somethings better up there.  While we were there, Calgary was the top place for sleep apnea for example.  Wasn't impressed with their RLS treatment though.

[Robert F. Smith]

The reality is that communism just plain does not work, call it what you will.

 

It's bad pragmatism.   If there is no incentive for people to work, they won't.

Yes, Mr. Gorbachev and his colleagues did come to that realization.  But that was "communism" so-called.  It was never practiced by them.  Instead, they instituted state capitalism and called it "building socialism," pending the frabjous and inevitable day when the state would wither away and there would be automatic harmony.  The communist theoreticians said that the theory was "scientific," but it was really quite religious and was actually just another version of the Christian Millennium.