Pope Francis Takes On Capitalism And Inequality

[thesometimesaint]

While I do have theological disagreements with his holiness. The more I see about this Pope the more I like him.

[BCSpace]

I think it's disappointing that we now have new theological differences because of this Pope regarding the doctrines of equality.

[Stone holm]

While I do have theological disagreements with his holiness. The more I see about this Pope the more I like him.

Yeah am not big on Catholicism as far as their understanding of God and the universe, but this Pope has finally been the major Christian theologian to break away from the obsession with sexual matters and start focusing on the actual problems, it's like "hello, I am going to focus on Christ actual teachings in the four Gospels" Very refreshing from thinking if we just pass out chastity belts and keep Bob and Jim from marrying each other, and some poor down on her luck woman from accessing an abortion clinic that the world's problems will all be solved.

[thesometimesaint]

TTBOMK This Pope hasn't changed the Catholic church opposition to abortion. It is finally coming the terms with unwanted sex by the Catholic leadership. A hundred years ago the Pope at that time said pretty much the same thing about economics as is Pope Francis. I admire his bringing it back to the forefront in Catholic doctrine. I do believe that we, purported LDS, have become far too middle class complacent about the concerns of the rich at the expense of the poor.

Edited December 13, 2013 by thesometimesaint

[Stone holm]

TTBOMK This Pope hasn't changed the Catholic church opposition to abortion. It is finally coming the terms with unwanted sex by the Catholic leadership. A hundred years ago the Pope at that time said pretty much the same thing about economics as is Pope Francis. I admire his bringing it back to the forefront in Catholic doctrine. I do believe that we, purported LDS, have become far too middle class complacent about the concerns of the rich at the expense of the poor.

We became thoroughly distracted by sexual morality.

[Hamilton Porter]

I think it's disappointing that we now have new theological differences because of this Pope regarding the doctrines of equality.

 

At least we both agree inequality sucks.

[Vance]

If you didn't make a good product. I'm not likely to buy it. Kinda like that by their fruits ye shall know them.

Ok, I haven't read the whole thread, and I don't really care to.

So, I am going to go political and get banned from the thread.

Obamacare it NOT a good product that the Government is COERSING me to buy.

Goodbye all, and if I don't see before then, MERRY CHRISTMAS!!!!!

Edited to add,

Just incase you missed it.http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/george-will-obamas-tardy-epiphany-about-governments-flaws/2013/12/11/437bcd20-61d0-11e3-94ad-004fefa61ee6_story.html

Edited December 13, 2013 by Vance

[thesometimesaint]

Ok, I haven't read the whole thread, and I don't really care to.

So, I am going to go political and get banned from the thread.

Obamacare it NOT a good product that the Government is COERSING me to buy.

Goodbye all, and if I don't see before then, MERRY CHRISTMAS!!!!!

Edited to add,

Just incase you missed it.http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/george-will-obamas-tardy-epiphany-about-governments-flaws/2013/12/11/437bcd20-61d0-11e3-94ad-004fefa61ee6_story.html

 

Without getting political. The job of the government is to coerce you into buying things. So the cost of your irresponsibility is not born by me.

[Rob Osborn]

Coerce you into buying things? What the? What?

[Rob Osborn]

Sexual immorality is still probably the number 1 problem in society.

[thesometimesaint]

Coerce you into buying things? What the? What?

 

The very internet you are using right now is the product of a governmental program controlled by FCC. The electricity it uses is tightly controlled as to wave length, slope, and cycle. IOW our modern way of life is totally dependent on the government.

[Stone holm]

Sexual immorality is still probably the number 1 problem in society.

 

Sexual immorality is one of the symptoms of the destruction of the middle-class and the destruction of cohesive communities, which is economic in nature.  Fix the problem and you will see a decrease in the symptoms, continue to focus on the symptoms and the symptoms will persist regardless of your efforts.  Christ spent very little time discussing sexual morality, huge amount of time criticizing the ruling class of the Jewish establishment.  It is, however, wishful thinking that we will ever completely conquer sexual morality issues because of the damage already done by ignoring the economic and social issues -- the longer we devote our primary emphasis on the symptoms instead of the cause, the more difficult eliminating the damage done.  I believe that Pope Francis has basically figured this out.

[T-Shirt]

Sexual immorality is one of the symptoms of the destruction of the middle-class and the destruction of cohesive communities, which is economic in nature.  Fix the problem and you will see a decrease in the symptoms, continue to focus on the symptoms and the symptoms will persist regardless of your efforts.  Christ spent very little time discussing sexual morality, huge amount of time criticizing the ruling class of the Jewish establishment.  It is, however, wishful thinking that we will ever completely conquer sexual morality issues because of the damage already done by ignoring the economic and social issues -- the longer we devote our primary emphasis on the symptoms instead of the cause, the more difficult eliminating the damage done.  I believe that Pope Francis has basically figured this out.

Sexual immorality is caused by greedy corporations? Wow, who knew?

[thesometimesaint]

Sexual immorality is caused by greedy corporations? Wow, who knew?

 

While we all responsible for our own actions. Certainly Corporations haven't helped. Especially with the overt sexualization of what young girls wear.

[Stone holm]

Sexual immorality is caused by greedy corporations? Wow, who knew?

 

The development of large corporations is decided anti-family because unlike family owned businesses, family members are more likely to be discouraged from employment in the same corporation especially at management levels, the distance between the ultimate policy makers and the employees encourages atomistic attitudes which tend to view labor as a commodity (dehumanizes the workforce), corporations are amoral entities since there morals are put in place solely by legislation which is the only restraint upon their fiduciary duty to maximize profits for their shareholders.  So yes because they tend to destroy the middle-economy and community cohesiveness, yes they are part of the destruction of the middle-class family -- the result is a decline in sexual morality as the middle-class has always set the standard and community cohesiveness enforced it better than morality legislation.

[pmccombs1]

Sexual immorality is still probably the number 1 problem in society.

 

What do you mean by "problem?" 

 

From a moral standpoint, I agree with Hugh Nibley that the harlot is more likely to get into heaven before the businessman. Sexual sin is typically a sin of weakness, whereas greed and the vices attendant to money create within us sins of will and of power. In the Christian worldview, malice is the greater evil. 

[T-Shirt]

The development of large corporations is decided anti-family because unlike family owned businesses, family members are more likely to be discouraged from employment in the same corporation especially at management levels, the distance between the ultimate policy makers and the employees encourages atomistic attitudes which tend to view labor as a commodity (dehumanizes the workforce), corporations are amoral entities since there morals are put in place solely by legislation which is the only restraint upon their fiduciary duty to maximize profits for their shareholders.  So yes because they tend to destroy the middle-economy and community cohesiveness, yes they are part of the destruction of the middle-class family -- the result is a decline in sexual morality as the middle-class has always set the standard and community cohesiveness enforced it better than morality legislation.

Absolute tripe.

[Stone holm]

Absolute tripe.

 

Well that was a profound comment.

[T-Shirt]

Well that was a profound comment.

It would be very difficult to get into this without things turning political, so I will resist. Suffice it to say that, if it was not contrary to board rules, I would gladly show, in detail why your ideas are complete tripe, and I would add, naive.

[Stone holm]

What do you mean by "problem?" 

 

From a moral standpoint, I agree with Hugh Nibley that the harlot is more likely to get into heaven before the businessman. Sexual sin is typically a sin of weakness, whereas greed and the vices attendant to money create within us sins of will and of power. In the Christian worldview, malice is the greater evil.

This is not a CFR, but would like to access the article where Nibley discusses the sexual morality distraction, could you give me a link.

[thesometimesaint]

This is not a CFR, but would like to access the article where Nibley discusses the sexual morality distraction, could you give me a link.

 

TTBOMK he never did speak of sexual sin as a distraction. But he wrote at length about the evils of predatory Capitalism in Approaching Zion.

[thesometimesaint]

Absolute tripe.

 

Of course there is no such thing as greedy corporate welfare.It has absolutely no effect on citizens.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014672009

Edited December 13, 2013 by thesometimesaint

[Ahab]

Well that was a profound comment.

If you'll analyze your thoughts a little more I think you'll be able to see what he was getting at, even though you may still disagree.  I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing to have "corporations" but I do see a problem with corporate structures that support inequality among all the employees.  For some reason somebody has decided that instead of paying every employee the same wage for an 8-hour day some employees should be paid higher wages than others even though every employee contributues to making the corporation successful.  And of course people at the top of the food chain in the corporation will give you what they see as good reasons for that, because what else would they do, give some of their wages to others so that everyone can be paid equally???  Nah.  They would never go for something like that, because they like if not love all of the money they're getting.

[pmccombs1]

This is not a CFR, but would like to access the article where Nibley discusses the sexual morality distraction, could you give me a link.

 

This idea is found in Nibley's book, Approaching Zion.

 

Here is one excerpt:

 

The worst sinners, according to Jesus, are not the harlots and publicans, but the religious leaders with their insistence on proper dress and grooming, their careful observance of all the rules, their precious concern for status symbols, their strict legality, their pious patriotism.  Longhairs, beards, necklaces, LSD and rock, Big Sur and Woodstock come and go, but Babylon is always there:  rich, respectable, immovable, with its granite walls and steel vaults, its bronze gates, its onyx trimmings and marble floor...

 

That isn't the particular passage I had in mind, but it is what I can scrape up from bits of it that I find online (my copy of the book is at home where I presently am not).  If you read the whole book, Nibley pretty much says it as I have stated in my original comment, as I recall. I'll see if I can find a more exact reference for you later.

 

I really think you'd enjoy Approaching Zion.

[Stone holm]

If you'll analyze your thoughts a little more I think you'll be able to see what he was getting at, even though you may still disagree.  I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing to have "corporations" but I do see a problem with corporate structures that support inequality among all the employees.  For some reason somebody has decided that instead of paying every employee the same wage for an 8-hour day some employees should be paid higher wages than others even though every employee contributues to making the corporation successful.  And of course people at the top of the food chain in the corporation will give you what they see as good reasons for that, because what else would they do, give some of their wages to others so that everyone can be paid equally???  Nah.  They would never go for something like that, because they like if not love all of the money they're getting.

I don't think corporations are necessarily evil. There are some endeavors which require a relatively large amount of capital. They are also useful to preserve continuity of a business and to limit the risk where otherwise an endeavor would not be undertaken. However, if they are allowed to become too large and powerful, they become primarily a method of concentrating wealth and power into a few hands. This is especially true if wealth is allowed to concentrate.