And This Pope Rocks On

[Calm]

 Visiting teaching friendships remain intact, I would imagine, for active LDS who see each other often at church events. 

 

Sometimes.  It depends on how well the fit is.  There are several VT relationships I have not carried on beyond saying hello since I had nothing in common with the woman, though my companion was great friends with her (big age difference, at least 40 years older in many cases so we just didn't run in the same stream of life, plus it was a larger city and small numbers of LDS).  OTOH, there have been others where one mother basically turned her children over to me in a crisis with all the necessary paperwork a couple of years after I had been her visiting teacher...my whole family had more or less adopted their family...thankfully we got her through that crisis, but we would have taken the children permanently in very willingly if it had come to that.  So I have had a wide range of experiences.

Edited January 5, 2014 by calmoriah

[Calm]

I think a lot of people zone out there and don't notice the people around them anyway.

 

I am horrible at recognizing people out of the usual context that I've seen them.

 

I didn't expect to see my sister at a wedding reception and it took me a minute to register it was her as it had been a few years since I had seen her.  I am horrible with names as well.  After we came back from Russia to the same ward, it was start from scratch practically for me.  Very, very embarrassing.  I wish we all had missionary like name tags on or our ward did a photo directory like we did as a student ward when we had such high turnover.

[Calm]

I would like to think so, but there are a few occasions where it was overt.

When we first moved in, I got to know the neighbors and invited kids over so my daughter could get to know them. I learned who the Mormon families were by who didn't come over. Which is fine, I respect how parents want to raise their children. In Utah, you learn as a parent to involve your children in activities where there is likely to be more none LDS kids involved. Either Mormons are keeping their children away from yours, or trying to convert yours. That dynamic is a large ingredient towards building adult relationships. You can be sure, when I got a small whiff of someone targeting my daughter for conversion, the relationship ended. Mormon parents I imagine are sniffing out for "bad" influence, which is us!

We live in Utah past and present though lots in between.  Only rule I have heard of among my friends is no sleep overs...for anyone, even if members (and not all agree with that one).  

 

I totally admit I stay away from people who smoke, but only because it makes me physically ill.  Bad allergies that have grown much more sensitive now that it is completely banned in public.  Something I can do nothing about, so I just try to be friendly as long as I can and then leave quickly before I start to gag (makes me vomit if intense...not a nice way to greet someone).  Strong perfume does the same thing so there are some women I avoid at church.

Edited January 5, 2014 by calmoriah

[Tacenda]

The aspect of busy lives is a huge factor. Visiting teaching friendships remain intact, I would imagine, for active LDS who see each other often at church events. I never see LDS members. I mean, maybe I do at the local grocery store or gas station, but we don't know each other. When I see former visiting teachers it is most often at the grocery store! I think a lot of people zone out there and don't notice the people around them anyway.

I had a visiting teacher for a long time who wrote me letters. We never met, not once, I have no idea what she looks like. I used to joke with my husband that maybe she was part of the group we passed while on a walk around the neighborhood, who gave us dirty looks and made comments about us because we were smoking. Gasp! Really, I have no idea, but we are not LDS in any way, and so don't fit into the LDS mould of what makes a "good person". We do our thing, and let the neighbors do theirs. I'm friendly to the women who are assigned to me. I realize that I'm probably the last assignment that anyone would want. The inactive member who has never been to church once in 15 years of living in "the ward". So I try to make it as painless for them as possible.

This made me think of a wonderful person in my neighborhood that is LDS but inactive and now going to a bible church.  She tried to come to church but it was not to be.  Anyway, I only got to know her when we as a RS presidency would visit her.  And I was in two presidencies so she had visits from both.  I was always worried how I might appear to her, as if I were trying a little too hard.  And it made me act insincere because I didn't know how to approach her very well.  Well one day I'm in the store and usually I try to avoid everyone, just  how I am.  And lo and behold this gal came right up to me and asked how I was doing, and I saw this sparkle in her eye.  My visits to her were out of duty, more or less, that came with the calling.  But hers was pure.  Why when I'm not doing my calling or what not, do I just shrink back.  It's not with all members just me probably.  But I do see how when approaching people that may not believe or have difficulty believing I had a hard time being real with them.  Now I'm probably going to see that hesitation with members now that I'm on the list.  And I know we are now, because for the first time in my married life, we didn't show up for tithing settlement.  And my husband is adamant that we are not going to pay.  Maybe he's punishing me.                

[thesometimesaint]

This made me think of a wonderful person in my neighborhood that is LDS but inactive and now going to a bible church.  She tried to come to church but it was not to be.  Anyway, I only got to know her when we as a RS presidency would visit her.  And I was in two presidencies so she had visits from both.  I was always worried how I might appear to her, as if I were trying a little too hard.  And it made me act insincere because I didn't know how to approach her very well.  Well one day I'm in the store and usually I try to avoid everyone, just  how I am.  And lo and behold this gal came right up to me and asked how I was doing, and I saw this sparkle in her eye.  My visits to her were out of duty, more or less, that came with the calling.  But hers was pure.  Why when I'm not doing my calling or what not, do I just shrink back.  It's not with all members just me probably.  But I do see how when approaching people that may not believe or have difficulty believing I had a hard time being real with them.  Now I'm probably going to see that hesitation with members now that I'm on the list.  And I know we are now, because for the first time in my married life, we didn't show up for tithing settlement.  And my husband is adamant that we are not going to pay.  Maybe he's punishing me.                

 

Your husband has every right not pay. It is unrighteous dominion for him to insist that you don't.

[saemo]

I remember you telling me all this when we actually met.  I still find the story rather amusing!

Hey, good to "see"you. Hope you are having blessed Feast of the Epiphany! It is one of my favorite days, and to top it of, our choir sang Mozart's Kyrie, with accompaniment! Beautiful day!

[saemo]

We live in Utah past and present though lots in between.  Only rule I have heard of among my friends is no sleep overs...for anyone, even if members (and not all agree with that one).  

 

I totally admit I stay away from people who smoke, but only because it makes me physically ill.  Bad allergies that have grown much more sensitive now that it is completely banned in public.  Something I can do nothing about, so I just try to be friendly as long as I can and then leave quickly before I start to gag (makes me vomit if intense...not a nice way to greet someone).  Strong perfume does the same thing so there are some women I avoid at church.

I am self conscious about my smoking habit, and keep it hidden, go to great lengths to not smoke around people or to smell like smoke. It was a nice summer day, and there's a luxury to taking a stroll while smoking. So, on the one hand, a rare occurrence where I smoke in public is (not surprisingly) found offensive to the public. On the other hand, it is a one time occurrence because it is so rare I smoke outside of my own yard. A lot of people at my work smoke, and even they have no idea I do. I'm too self conscious about it to step outside the work building and light up.

[ERayR]

I am self conscious about my smoking habit, and keep it hidden, go to great lengths to not smoke around people or to smell like smoke. It was a nice summer day, and there's a luxury to taking a stroll while smoking. So, on the one hand, a rare occurrence where I smoke in public is (not surprisingly) found offensive to the public. On the other hand, it is a one time occurrence because it is so rare I smoke outside of my own yard. A lot of people at my work smoke, and even they have no idea I do. I'm too self conscious about it to step outside the work building and light up.

 

Please don't take offense but I assure that if you smoke you can not keep it hidden.  As a former smoker and a parent with adult children who smoke I know that you can not hide it from a non-smoker.

[Stone holm]

I would like to think so, but there are a few occasions where it was overt.

When we first moved in, I got to know the neighbors and invited kids over so my daughter could get to know them. I learned who the Mormon families were by who didn't come over. Which is fine, I respect how parents want to raise their children. In Utah, you learn as a parent to involve your children in activities where there is likely to be more none LDS kids involved. Either Mormons are keeping their children away from yours, or trying to convert yours. That dynamic is a large ingredient towards building adult relationships. You can be sure, when I got a small whiff of someone targeting my daughter for conversion, the relationship ended. Mormon parents I imagine are sniffing out for "bad" influence, which is us!

Not noticed this in any Ward I have lived in, but many have spoken of Utah having a different culture (that will probably bring a rebuke from Lloyd Scott), but have not lived there.

[Calm]

I am self conscious about my smoking habit, and keep it hidden, go to great lengths to not smoke around people or to smell like smoke. It was a nice summer day, and there's a luxury to taking a stroll while smoking. So, on the one hand, a rare occurrence where I smoke in public is (not surprisingly) found offensive to the public. On the other hand, it is a one time occurrence because it is so rare I smoke outside of my own yard. A lot of people at my work smoke, and even they have no idea I do. I'm too self conscious about it to step outside the work building and light up.

Unfortunately I am sensitive enough any smell on the clothing if around for awhile will make me ill. I came across one of my daughter's elementary teachers up in Canada at one time. She was mortified as she didn't want the children to see her smoking in case they started seeing it as okay. I assured her I wouldn't say anything and that I respected her greatly for caring that much. I feel bad for those who feel forced to smoke and don't even really enjoy it. Our culture really did a number on them with all the advertising.

[changed]

He does divide.

He also unites....

Just watched this:

http://history.lds.org/article/dutch-potatoes-video?lang=eng&cid=HPFR010314316&im=true

 from this GC talk: link

 

Whatever our political or personal differences, the same promise is ours today …

"The miracle of unity is being granted to us as we pray and work for it in the Lord’s way. Our hearts will be knit together in unity. God has promised that blessing to His faithful Saints whatever their differences in background and whatever conflict rages around them. He was praying for us as well as His disciples when He asked His Father that we might be one.

The reason that we pray and ask for that blessing is the same reason the Father is granting it. We know from experience that joy comes when we are blessed with unity. We yearn, as spirit children of our Heavenly Father, for that joy which we once had with Him in the life before this one. His desire is to grant us that sacred wish for unity out of His love for us.

He cannot grant it to us as individuals. The joy of unity He wants so much to give us is not solitary. We must seek it and qualify for it with others."

 

[thesometimesaint]

"...We must seek it and qualify for it with others."

 

Agreed.

[saemo]

 

 

Also, the carmelites are usually not media prone. They tend to b sequestered:

 

"The work of this house is prayer "- St Teresa

The following is a typical day in one of our Monasteries:

 

5.30 am Rising signal

6.00 am Prayer time (Meditation) either in solitude or in the chapel

7.00 am Lauds/Morning Prayer (Divine Office prayed together in the chapel: psalms, readings etc spread throughout the day to mark its passing and to consecrate our time to God)

7.45 am Terce (Divine Office)

8.00 am MASS

8.45 am Breakfast

9.00 am Work*

11.30 am Sext (Divine Office)

11.45 am Dinner (in silence with a reading from the Bible and other spiritual books)

12.15 pm Washing up, preparing vegetables etc - in silence

12.45pm Morning recreation - a time to relax and talk together

1.15 pm Free time in the cell (the nuns' private room).

1.45 pm Spiritual Reading in the cell (or garden in summer)

1.45 pm None (Divine Office) followed by a cup of tea.

3.00 pm Work*

4.30 pm Prayer time (Meditation) either in solitude or in the chapel.

5.30 pm Vespers/Evening Prayer (Divine Office)

6.00 pm Evening meal, washing up

6.45 pm Recreation together

7.45 pm Office of Readings (Divine Office- the longest one of the day with psalms and extended Bible readings and other readings)

The Great Silence follows this - free time for prayer, reading or hobbies etc but all in strict silence. This silence lasts until after Mass the next day.

9.15 pm Compline - the last prayer of the day. Retire to cells

10.30 pm Lights out.

*Work varies from monastery to monastery. It can consist in the manufacture of altar breads for churches, vestment work, printing, craft work, gardening, cooking, office work, sewing and the usual household tasks. Each sister works alone and in silence where possible, only speaking when really necessary for carrying out her work.

 

http://www.carmelnuns.org.uk/index.php?module=pagemaster&PAGE_user_op=view_page&PAGE_id=15&MMN_position=19:19

 

Not the type to notify the media of a phone conversation with the pope. So who did? And why?

A lot of monasteries have websites and most of them explain their daily lives. I don't know of a monastery who closes its doors to those who want to participate in their Mass.  So, the link you provided, anyone can show up for the Mass times. There is also interest by people who may be discerning a religious life and are interested in as much information as possible. And there is the general curiosity about what's going on in there. Monasteries aren't holding secrets about their daily lives, the sisters/brothers are happy to share everything they have, including their schedules. Here's the website for the Carmelites in the SLC valley. http://www.carmelslc.org

 

When a monastery is cloistered, they always have a person who is designated to interact with the outside world. This interaction includes support for the nuns/monks, including websites if they are not tech savvy enough to make their own. Helping them with their yard work, taking nuns/monks to appointments outside of the monastery (such as Dr. appts.), etc. This is the same person who will be answering phone calls, and inquiries from the outside world. But of course, nuns are not cloistered from the Pope. Conversations between religious and clergy really do occur!

 

Nuns get just excited about a papal phone call as anyone else would. They have visitors, they talk about their lives. Who knows how a recording ended up in the media. Could be the media conspiracy you're chasing after, of could be a priest picked it up and passed it on to a friend.

[saemo]

He does divide. It comes down to what is most important in our lives. If our relationships with mortals is the most important. That is what we get in this life. They end at our death. If our relationship with God is the most important. That is what we get in this life, and the life to come.

 

I don't believe our relationships end at death. As a Catholic, I seek the intercession of Saints in Heaven. I believe Heaven is the place where our relationships are fulfilled, in and through Jesus, not terminated.  Communion, to a Catholic, is central. Communion with Christ the source, center and summit of our faith. We are in communion with all the baptized, which constitutes the Body of Christ. Individualism is considered disordered, to a Catholic mind.

 

Jesus said, we should love our neighbor as ourselves and we are called to serve those who are considered on the fringes of society. There isn't anything in there that says these things are separate from our relationship with God.

 

Jesus said He divides us, but He is also the One who unites us, to Himself, to the Father, and to each other. There is a tension there, but I have a Catholic friend who seems to enjoy pointing out the tensions of a Christian life. :-)

[changed]

...I don't know of a monastery who closes its doors to those who want to participate in their Mass.  ..

I went to a funeral today at a Catholic church, part of the services was a mass.  They said only Catholics could take the mass, that if we were not Catholic, we could still come up for a blessing, and to just let them know by crossing our arms over our chest when we approached.  I'm not sure if all churches do this?  It was a beautiful service, lovely music etc. etc. though. 

[ChristKnight]

I went to a funeral today at a Catholic church, part of the services was a mass.  They said only Catholics could take the mass, that if we were not Catholic, we could still come up for a blessing, and to just let them know by crossing our arms over our chest when we approached.  I'm not sure if all churches do this?  It was a beautiful service, lovely music etc. etc. though. 

 

Yes, this is a common Catholic practice.  The Eucharist ("Mass" is the name of the liturgy/ceremony, "Eucharist" or "Communion" is what you "take", so you take/receive Communion/Eucharist, not Mass) is only for Catholics (though the Eastern Orthodox and one or two other churches are exceptions in certain circumstances), however those that cannot partake for whatever reason can receive a priestly blessing by going up and doing what you described.

[saemo]

I went to a funeral today at a Catholic church, part of the services was a mass.  They said only Catholics could take the mass, that if we were not Catholic, we could still come up for a blessing, and to just let them know by crossing our arms over our chest when we approached.  I'm not sure if all churches do this?  It was a beautiful service, lovely music etc. etc. though. 

Condolences for your loss and prayers for the soul of the deceased.

 

Baptized Catholics who are not in mortal sin (have been to confession) receive Communion. It can mixed among Priests and Bishops as to who are OK with those who are not receiving, Catholic or non-Catholic, going up for a blessing. Our Bishop is fine with it and more than a few people receive a blessing at our parish. Some view it as an addition to the Mass, not ordinary, and duplicating the blessing over the entire congregation at the dismissal (end of Mass). So, if you go to Mass again at the same parish, going up for a blessing is OK. If you go to another parish, observe what others are doing.

 

A funeral Mass is both beautiful and sad.

[Spammer]

Yes, this is a common Catholic practice.  The Eucharist ("Mass" is the name of the liturgy/ceremony, "Eucharist" or "Communion" is what you "take", so you take/receive Communion/Eucharist, not Mass) is only for Catholics (though the Eastern Orthodox and one or two other churches are exceptions in certain circumstances), however those that cannot partake for whatever reason can receive a priestly blessing by going up and doing what you described.

 

Per canon law, Eastern Orthodox priests do not commune the non-Orthodox, including Catholics.  Non-Orthodox folks may partake of the blessed bread (antidoron), which is placed on a table to the side of the ambo (where the priest stands to give communion to the faithful).   It is acceptable and common for non-Orthodox to be invited to approach the chalice to venerate the Lord and receive a blessing from the priest, but they do not receive the eucharist (consecrated body and blood of our Lord). That is reserved for baptized and chrismated Orthodox Christians alone.

Edited January 7, 2014 by Spammer

[ChristKnight]

Per canon law, Eastern Orthodox priests do not commune the non-Orthodox, including Catholics.  Non-Orthodox folks may partake of the blessed bread (antidoron), which is placed on a table to the side of the ambo (where the priest stands to give communion to the faithful).   It is acceptable and common for non-Orthodox to be invited to approach the chalice to venerate the Lord and receive a blessing from the priest, but they do not receive the eucharist (consecrated body and blood of our Lord). That is reserved for baptized and chrismated Orthodox Christians alone.

Thank you for providing the Orthodox practiice. Interestingly, although Catholic canon law allows Eastern Orthodox to commune in a Catholic church (though they are instructed to follow the dictates of their Church), Orthodox are taught not to, from what I understand.

[Daniel2]

Pope Francis Indicates Catholic Church Could Support Some Types Of Civil Unions

http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2014/03/05/pope-francis-church-could-support-civil-unions/?hpt=hp_t2

In an interview published in Italy today, Pope Francis said that the Catholic Church could consider supporting some forms of civil unions, but not same-sex marriage.

The Pope reiterated the church's longstanding teaching that "marriage is between a man and a woman." However, he said, "We have to look at different cases and evaluate them in their variety." For instance, civil unions provide financial security to cohabitating couples, "as for instance in medical care," the Pope said in a wide-ranging interview published Wednesday in Corriere della Sera, an Italian daily. A number of Catholic bishops have supported civil unions for same-sex couples, including Pope Francis when he was Archbishop of Buenos Aires in 2010, according to reports in National Catholic Reporter and The New York Times.

This is the first time a Pope has "indicated even tentative acceptance of civil unions," according to Catholic News Service.In January the Vatican denied reports that Pope Francis supported civil unions.

Edited March 5, 2014 by Daniel2

[thesometimesaint]

 

Pope Francis Indicates Catholic Church Could Support Some Types Of Civil Unions

http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2014/03/05/pope-francis-church-could-support-civil-unions/?hpt=hp_t2

In an interview published in Italy today, Pope Francis said that the Catholic Church could consider supporting some forms of civil unions, but not same-sex marriage.

The Pope reiterated the church's longstanding teaching that "marriage is between a man and a woman." However, he said, "We have to look at different cases and evaluate them in their variety." For instance, civil unions provide financial security to cohabitating couples, "as for instance in medical care," the Pope said in a wide-ranging interview published Wednesday in Corriere della Sera, an Italian daily. A number of Catholic bishops have supported civil unions for same-sex couples, including Pope Francis when he was Archbishop of Buenos Aires in 2010, according to reports in National Catholic Reporter and The New York Times.

This is the first time a Pope has "indicated even tentative acceptance of civil unions," according to Catholic News Service.In January the Vatican denied reports that Pope Francis supported civil unions.

 

 

I've been saying it, I've been saying it. Get the government out of the marrying business, leave that to religion, and make them all Civil Unions.

[CV75]

I've been saying it, I've been saying it. Get the government out of the marrying business, leave that to religion, and make them all Civil Unions.

Civil unions is just getting into some other kind of business... ...Let's go all the way and get government out of the healing business, the feeding, housing and banking/investing, food growing and transporting businesses, the economic security business, etc. and leave all those to religion as well!

[MiserereNobis]

I don't know of a monastery who closes its doors to those who want to participate in their Mass.

 

The Carthusian Order, founded in 1084,  is the most strict of the Catholic monastic orders.  There are no visitors allowed at any time (unless you are discerning a vocation -- then you can go on a vocational retreat).

 

But, since it is so strict, there are very few of them.  There is only one in the United States:  Charterhouse of the Transfiguration.

 

The motherhouse of the order, the Grand Chartreuse monastery, is famous for making chartreuse liquor.  It is also the subject of a fascinating documentery Into Great Silence.

[thesometimesaint]

Civil unions is just getting into some other kind of business... ...Let's go all the way and get government out of the healing business, the feeding, housing and banking/investing, food growing and transporting businesses, the economic security business, etc. and leave all those to religion as well!

 

None of those is a religious rite. Marriage by definition is a religious rite, one that the state has control of. Get the government out of religious rites.

[Stone holm]

None of those is a religious rite. Marriage by definition is a religious rite, one that the state has control of. Get the government out of religious rites.

Actually it's both . Its a holdover from the days when religion was just another arm of the State, for much of human history there was no such thing as separation of Church and State, that was a relatively recent concept which we Americans actually helped get rolling with our Federal Constitution and we some Americans seem to want to repeal.