And This Pope Rocks On

[why me]

why me, The Magnificent. Will read your mind for freeeeeee.

I wonder where the lds person would be on your favorite catholic site if he or she had such a link? Gone for sure. But mormons are just a little more tolerant.

[Stone holm]

Saemo is here to convert. Her link at the bottom in her signature line is a conversion link. So, her platitudes are very nice and a little condescending, full of good soundbites.

Uh, we tend to generate a fair supply of those on our own.

[The Nehor]

Eh, well, I view chasing novelty as a sign of not trusting God. Different strokes.

Well I view not seeking out more of the Word of God as laziness, cowardice, and dereliction of duty. Different strokes i guess.

[bluebell]

Saemo is here to convert. Her link at the bottom in her signature line is a conversion link. So, her platitudes are very nice and a little condescending, full of good soundbites.

 

In that way, she's not any different than most of us who post here.  

[why me]

why me, The Magnificent. Will read your mind for freeeeeee.

 

Catholics don't seek to convert Catholics. 

You speak much about love and mercy but seem to forget the catholic hell. No mercy or love for the sinner. We need to be honest if we wish to save catholics from hell. Time to get back to basics. God's love or mercy will not save a sinner in the catholic faith. Hell is very real. But you do make it all sound so nice. But nice try.

[ChristKnight]

Then let's try to get an able Catholic representative on this thread (or on a new one) so we can point by point compare our answers to gospel questions. This way people can be informed and will be able to decide for themselves if I am correct when I say that the LDS answers to gospel questions are the best answers. I extend this challenge in a spirit of goodwill and humility. But understand that it would be dishonest on my part if I weren't to openly declare that I really do believe, from the very bottom of my soul, that the LDS answers to gospel questions are far surpassing all others in their logic, wisdom and brilliance.   

 

I admire your fervor, and enjoy reading your posts.  My point is merely that I've seen Catholics make the same claims about the Catholic Church versus the LDS Church, and that, as calmoriah shows, it doesn't have to be because Catholics *really* believe that the LDS claims are stronger, more logical, and appealing, and therefore have to denigrate the LDS faith.  It could really be that it's because Catholics believe the same things about the Catholic faith that you believe about the LDS faith. 

[saemo]

When you consider that He taught for three years during his mortal ministry, it's not very much (which i guess is the definition of 'little').  You can probably read all his words straight through in a couple of hours.  

 

That would seem to imply (a few hours worth of teachings compared to a three year ministry) that yes, we do have very little of His actual teachings.

 

This does not at all demean the teachings that have been preserved for us, of course.  I'm sure you did not mean to imply that Nehor does not appreciate them as much as you do, as that would not have been a logical interpretation of his post.

 

Seeking to understand the Word of God takes more than a couple of hours, is what I mean.

 

I don't know what Nehor thinks, but I get the idea that LDS believe Things are missing, and so must be hunted out. Everything is a clue to something or somewhere else.

 

For myself, I'd rather focus on what God has given, and seek to understand. I don't see clues to something else, I see references to reality, Who is a Person.

[why me]

Uh, we tend to generate a fair supply of those on our own.

On saemo's catholic site, mormons are banned for conversion links and conversion attempts. As are people of other faiths who are deemed to be attempting to convert. But mormons on rather tolerant and self assured. They are not so threatened.

[teddyaware]

"Mystery", in Catholic usage, does not mean "I dunno". Mystery is a word that Catholics use to describe revelation, in that, God has revealed both His justice and mercy. God has also revealed that His ways are not our ways. We accept what God has revealed, and we seek to do the will of God, not to seek do make God conform to our will. Rejecting what God has revealed, with the excuse that God does not conform to my will, will not save you.

 

D&C 76 does nothing to address the question the caller made in the second video.

God has revealed Himself as One. God has revealed Himself as three. AS I SAID, we accept what God has revealed.

The Catholic apologist Tim Staples did say that it was a mystery (in the usual sense of that word) why God created some humans knowing he was going to have to send them to an unspeakably horrible hell for ever.

D&C 76 does answer the caller's question. It is revealed therein that the reason why God creates people he knows He's going to have to send to hell is because he knows the vast majority of those people who are sent there will be there temporarily, and that for their own good and ultimate salvation. The sons of Perdition, who will dwell in hell forever (as far as we now know), will be sent there after being given every chance to repent and come unto God and Christ, but for their own reasons they chose to refuse the grace of God and His offer to bestow forgiveness. And that is the essence of what Latter-day Saints call the unpardonable sin -- it is the steadfast refusal of a human free agent to believe in Christ, come unto Christ, and repent and receive forgiveness from Christ by virtue of His infinite and eternal atonement.

 

As far as the Trinity is concerned, until non-LDS Christians can define exactly how the three members of the Godhead are three separate personages (something the Latter-day Saints believe), while at the same time being one God (something the Latter-day saints also believe), there can be no fruitful dialogue on the subject. It is impossible to have a worthwhile debate on a subject when one side in the debate is utterly unable to define their own terms on the subject being debated, but opting instead, in this instance, to stipulate their terms on the subject of the debate to be an unsolvable, unfathomable mystery.

Edited January 3, 2014 by teddyaware

[saemo]

You speak much about love and mercy but seem to forget the catholic hell. No mercy or love for the sinner. We need to be honest if we wish to save catholics from hell. Time to get back to basics. God's love or mercy will not save a sinner in the catholic faith. Hell is very real. But you do make it all sound so nice. But nice try.

 

What ya talkin' about Willis? 

 

God's love and mercy is EXACTLY what saves all sinners.

[why me]

 it doesn't have to be because Catholics *really* believe that the LDS claims are stronger, more logical, and appealing, and therefore have to denigrate the LDS faith.  It could really be that it's because Catholics believe the same things about the Catholic faith that you believe about the LDS faith. 

Could be. But as you know on the catholic apologetic site there seems to be a fear of mormonism and so, they must attack the lds faith and denigrate mormonism. How to explain it?

[why me]

What ya talkin' about Willis? 

 

God's love and mercy is EXACTLY what saves all sinners.

You need to read up on hell in the catholic faith. Even your catholic site calls it a real place reserved for sinners and for those who reject god's word.

 

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07207a.htm

 

Lets not fool people here. Be honest. Catholic moderators will not ban me for engaging you.

Edited January 3, 2014 by why me

[Stone holm]

On saemo's catholic site, mormons are banned for conversion links and conversion attempts. As are people of other faiths who are deemed to be attempting to convert. But mormons on rather tolerant and self assured. They are not so threatened.

Oh, maybe on this Board, we get pretty defensive ourselves so I wouldn't attribute that as a characteristic of Mormons in general. Have seen too many Mormon posters on this Board who challenge whether their fellow Mormons have testimonies because they applaud some other faith or question a Church policy. That tends to be a sign of a person with some inner repressed doubts.

[saemo]

You need to read up on hell in the catholic faith. Even your catholic site calls it a real place reserved for sinners and for those who reject god's word.

 

You need to read up on the Catholic faith! Hell is real place for the unrepentant sinner. It is God's love and mercy that we find forgiveness. 

[saemo]

On saemo's catholic site, mormons are banned for conversion links and conversion attempts. As are people of other faiths who are deemed to be attempting to convert. But mormons on rather tolerant and self assured. They are not so threatened.

 

If you are referring to CAF:

 

a) it is not my site

b) People are banned for questioning the sincerity of faith of other posters (Catholic or non-Catholic). Which seems to be very tolerated here! 

[teddyaware]

I admire your fervor, and enjoy reading your posts.  My point is merely that I've seen Catholics make the same claims about the Catholic Church versus the LDS Church, and that, as calmoriah shows, it doesn't have to be because Catholics *really* believe that the LDS claims are stronger, more logical, and appealing, and therefore have to denigrate the LDS faith.  It could really be that it's because Catholics believe the same things about the Catholic faith that you believe about the LDS faith.

To clear things up, I wasn't referring to all Catholics. Rather, I was referring to the specific unkind Catholics WHY Me was talking about in his post. Unless folks make themselves perfectly clear by being extra careful as they write, there are bound to be misunderstandings. The problem is I type too slowly and lack the mental energy to get everything out and posted in a timely fashion. I'm smart, but not smart enough.

Edited January 3, 2014 by teddyaware

[saemo]

The Catholic apologist Tim Staples did say that it was a mystery (in the usual sense of that word) why God created some humans knowing he was going to have to send them to an unspeakably horrible hell for ever.

D&C 76 does answer the callers question. It is revealed therein that the reason why God creates people he knows He's going to have to send to hell is because he knows the vast majority of those people who are sent there will be there temporarily, and that for their own good and ultimate salvation. The sons of Perdition, who will dwell in hell forever (as far as we now know), will be sent there after being given every chance to repent and come unto God and Christ, but for their own reasons they chose to refuse the grace of God and His offer to bestow forgiveness. And that is they essence of what Latter-day Saints call the unpardonable sin -- it is the steadfast refusal of a human free agent to believe in Christ, come unto Christ, and repent and receive forgiveness from Christ by virtue of His infinite and eternal atonement.

 

As far as the Trinity is concerned, until non-LDS Christians can define exactly how the three members of the Godhead are three separate personages (something the Latter-day Saints believe), while at the same time being one God (something the Latter-day saints also believe), there can be no fruitful dialogue on the subject. It is impossible to have a worthwhile debate on a subject when one side fn the debate is utterly unable to define their own terms on the subject being debated, but opting instead, in this instance, to stipulate their terms on the subject of the debate are an unsolvable, unfathomable mystery.

I appreciate your faith. I really do. But for me, what I see in the LDS teaching is this life doesn't matter. Do whatever, whenever, and it's even better if you do not become LDS. Party on!!

[bluebell]

Seeking to understand the Word of God takes more than a couple of hours, is what I mean.

 

I don't know what Nehor thinks, but I get the idea that LDS believe Things are missing, and so must be hunted out. Everything is a clue to something or somewhere else.

 

For myself, I'd rather focus on what God has given, and seek to understand. I don't see clues to something else, I see references to reality, Who is a Person.

 

It seemed obvious to me that Nehor was talking about quantity and not quality.  I guess it would be possible for that to be unclear to someone else and to assume he was speaking about quality.

 

I think most LDS also want to focus on what God has given, and view some other Christians (such as Catholics) as not doing that at all-as saying 'we have enough, we don't need anymore'.

 

Obviously, neither of us really understand how the other group actually views things or feels about the word of God.

[ChristKnight]

Hi there Chris,

 

Some years ago, I saw an interview with Father Theodore Hesbergh, Dean of Notre Dame University, conducted by ABC News' Ted Koppel. As I recall, the interview was about the possibility of the Catholic Church, at some time in the future, allowing priests and nuns to marry. In this interview, Hesburgh said it (marriage) would likely never happen. In fact, he said the reason why priests and nuns were celibate and forbidden to marry is because they -- the priests and the nuns -- were  trailblazers of sorts, setting the example for the married Catholics and their families; pointing the way to a "better world" in heaven, where there is neither male of female and where the family ties and emotions that bind on earth would no longer exist. It would be interesting to hear what other Catholic authorities would have to say about Father Hesburgh's comments. 

 

As for the other items, there's no doubt that some similarity exists; but that's all there is, some similarity. In reality we're very much apart in major points of belief and practice when it comes to what actually constitutes the true order of temple worship. Nevertheless, the similarities do provide a good starting point for dialogue. 

 

It would be great if we could see the exact words he said in the interview to determine how it relates to authentic Catholic teaching. 

 

When talking about Catholic priestly celibacy, I think it's always important to remember that only part of the Catholic Church practices this discipline.  The Catholic Church is actually made up of 23 different "particular" churches (also known as sui iuris churches.  The Roman Catholic Church is the largest of these.  The others fall under the umbrella of "Eastern Catholic Churches" (not to be confused with their Eastern Orthodox counterparts that are not in union with the Pope).  Many if not most of the Eastern Catholic Churches allow married priests (the marriage must occur prior to ordination).  Also, all of the churches, including the Roman, allow for married ordained deacons as well.  There are also instances of former Anglican priests that convert to Catholicism being married priests (naturally they would be "re"-ordained).  So, while the discipline of priestly celibacy is old and most likely won't be changed any time soon, it could be, since the Catholic Church itself has many married priests for various reasons, and acknowledges the history of married priesthood leaders even before the discipline of priestly celibacy developed (as well as ancient Jewish practices related to celibacy and priesthood). 

 

I don't think Catholics can be regarded as teaching that in Heaven there won't be males nor females.  Catholics believe in the bodily resurrection of the dead, which precludes such a concept.  Catholics do not share the LDS belief in eternal marriage, however this does not mean that there is a belief that those in Heaven are unisex/neuter.

 

My point on temples is merely the fact that the temple concept wasn't lost on Catholicism/Orthodoxy, and has been found there all along.  It isn't the same as the LDS temple concept, certainly (though there are similarities), however it's there.

[saemo]

It seemed obvious to me that Nehor was talking about quantity and not quality.  I guess it would be possible for that to be unclear to someone else and to assume he was speaking about quality.

 

I think most LDS also want to focus on what God has given, and view some other Christians (such as Catholics) as not doing that at all-as saying 'we have enough, we don't need anymore'.

 

Obviously, neither of us really understand how the other group actually views things or feels about the word of God.

Yes, we view Christ as enough! It is true I do not understand how LDS do not, and seek novelty. May as well just fire up your own religion, according to what you like the bestest, and throw in your favorite novelties…is how I see it.

[why me]

You need to read up on the Catholic faith! Hell is real place for the unrepentant sinner. It is God's love and mercy that we find forgiveness. 

Nice double talk. But that wasn't in your original post:

 

What ya talkin' about Willis? 

 

God's love and mercy is EXACTLY what saves all sinners.

 

Where is the unrepentant sinner? I just see all sinners.

[why me]

I appreciate your faith. I really do. But for me, what I see in the LDS teaching is this life doesn't matter. Do whatever, whenever, and it's even better if you do not become LDS. Party on!!

Maybe you should read up on lds teaching and read the articles written by lds leaders. I have seen no such advice. Just the opposite. And i do believe that you know that also.

[teddyaware]

Yes, we view Christ as enough! It is true I do not understand how LDS do not, and seek novelty. May as well just fire up your own religion, according to what you like the bestest, and throw in your favorite novelties…is how I see it.

You say this only because you are presumptuous when it comes to the LDS religion. You think you know what we believe but you actually don't know our religion quite well as you think you do. The simple fact that you said D&C 76 didn't answer the caller's question demonstrates you jumped to conclusions without sufficient knowledge and without giving proper consideration to the intricacies of the subject.

Edited January 3, 2014 by teddyaware

[why me]

In that way, she's not any different than most of us who post here.  

Not quite. This is a mormon discussion site. If i had a link telling catholics to come home to the lds church on their apologetic board, I would get banned. But the lds are more tolerant.

[teddyaware]

Maybe you should read up on lds teaching and read the articles written by lds leaders. I have seen no such advice. Just the opposite. And i do believe that you know that also.

Further proof you do not at all understand the LDS religion. Perhaps you should quit before you dig yourself in too deep?