And This Pope Rocks On

[Calm]

And I don't hear the priests talk about hell either in their homilies.

Do you go to a lot of masses?  Just curious.

[thesometimesaint]

I know. But the idea of hell is not that popular. Much better to talk about love and mercy. Better press and a better conversation will come from it. Many churches have foresaken hell now. I hardly hear anything about it from the christian churches that have it in their catechism or in their belief system. But with the catholic church I do believe that it should be in the conversation. I do believe that some catholics are now stressing god's love and mercy regardless if they are living in sin or doing acts that god would not approve of. And I don't hear the priests talk about hell either in their homilies.

 

I don't know if all this is doing catholics any favors. Hell is still a real place in the catholic faith.

 

http://lyricsplayground.com/alpha/songs/a/andwhenidie.shtml

[teddyaware]

But I do believe the LDS has much better answers....but that is because I have a certain set of assumptions that the LDS faith matches up with quite nicely.  For those who don't have that set of assumptions, the LDS faith does not have not the best answers...I believe they are wrong, but I don't "buy" that they are illogical, etc.  They are often (I see the Catholic as being as logical and full of answers with their set of assumptions as we are with ours) as fully developed and as reasonable in their doctrine as we are.  

 

Consider the depth the Catechism goes into, there is great appeal in such, our Gospel Principles manual is like an elementary school textbook compared to university textbook for the Catechism....but it doesn't answer my questions...only those who have chosen to be Catholics.  If I want to learn math, an elementary math textbook is still better than a university biology textbook for that process.  But it is only proper to realize that if one is interested more in biology than math, taking biology courses makes much more sense than taking math courses.

 

Everyone has a set of assumptions that they approach life with, things that they accept as truth without requiring proof for that acceptance.  Faith exists as part of those assumptions.

 

Never said otherwise.

Just as I figured, we're not far away in our thinking. I like that, Cal! What about this? Perhaps one has to start out with a weightier measure of the light of Christ in order to start out with better assumptions that will lead to a fuller measure of the truth? After all, all truth is inspired of the Spirit of the Lord and true assumptions would of necessity have to be inspired by the Spirit of Truth.

 

In light of your thinking on assumptions, one wonders what assumptions Paul had on the road to Damascus, and what assumptions Alma had on the road to "trouble?" 

 

Edited January 3, 2014 by teddyaware

[Stone holm]

I know. But the idea of hell is not that popular. Much better to talk about love and mercy. Better press and a better conversation will come from it. Many churches have foresaken hell now. I hardly hear anything about it from the christian churches that have it in their catechism or in their belief system. But with the catholic church I do believe that it should be in the conversation. I do believe that some catholics are now stressing god's love and mercy regardless if they are living in sin or doing acts that god would not approve of. And I don't hear the priests talk about hell either in their homilies.

 

I don't know if all this is doing catholics any favors. Hell is still a real place in the catholic faith.

And how often do hear sermons about hell, spirit prison, and outer darkness in the LDS Church although our leaders used to talk about it a lot?

[saemo]

Must have led a pretty dull life then. I can read everything we have about his mortal life in a few hours. You sure we are not missing anything?

Catholics are not sola scriptura.

[why me]

And how often do hear sermons about hell, spirit prison, and outer darkness in the LDS Church although our leaders used to talk about it a lot?

It's a little different. Hell is a real place and a place for eternity. For mormons the stress is the degrees of glory. I do hear talks about the degrees of glory. The concept of hell is not that favorable anymore. What we hear is god is love, god is merciful...god's grace etc. If catholics and other christians have a hell concept and those doing sin will go there...it should be talked more about. Why is there so much merciful talk and love talk when hell is real possibility for such christians?

 

With pope francis, we hear much about love and mercy. and it does play well. He has people convinced that all one needs is love and god will be merciful. But that is not enough to get one out of going to hell, if he would speak straight. I have no idea just where hell went in the catholic church.

[thesometimesaint]

Catholics are not sola scriptura.

 

Neither are the Saints. Kinda leaves the Protestants out on a limb. We don't accept all of yours and you don't accept all of ours. However the Bible itself claims that all the books in the world couldn't contain all that he did. Though I do believe that to have gone into the world of hyperbole not long after the invention of the printing press.

Edited January 3, 2014 by thesometimesaint

[why me]

Do you go to a lot of masses?  Just curious.

Yes. I made some good catholic friends and the priests were very nice and welcoming. I needed that experience and I still need my catholic friends. They are great people.

 

But the catholics on the catholic apologetic site were so antimormon and so uncharitable and the site itself was so hostile to the mormon church that one must question just what the catholic church has done to such people to make them have such hate and hostility. Especially when they claim to be christian.

 

They seem to have it all turned upside down. They have no mercy, no love, no kindness toward the mormons or toward the mormon church.

Edited January 3, 2014 by why me

[saemo]

The mere fact that Catholic apologist Tim Staples, who speaks of hell in the 2nd linked video, cannot satisfactorily answer the difficult questions about those destined for eternal hell, without saying it's a mystery, puts the LDS plan of salvation light years ahead of the mystifying Catholic "doctrine" on this subject. Doctrine and Covenants Section 76 standing alone puts the perplexing mysteries surrounding this issue to rest ministering understanding, clarity and inner peace to the soul who hungers for the kind of sound and reasonable answers that will fully vindicate God as a being who is truly the embodiment of justice, mercy and perfect love.   

"Mystery", in Catholic usage, does not mean "I dunno". Mystery is a word that Catholics use to describe revelation, in that, God has revealed both His justice and mercy. God has also revealed that His ways are not our ways. We accept what God has revealed, and we seek to do the will of God, not to seek do make God conform to our will. Rejecting what God has revealed, with the excuse that God does not conform to my will, will not save you.

 

D&C 76 does nothing to address the question the caller made in the second video.

[saemo]

Neither are the Saints. Kinda leaves the Protestants out on a limb. We don't accept all of yours and you don't accept all of ours. However the Bible itself claims that all the books in the world couldn't contain all that he did. Though I do believe that to have gone into the world of hyperbole not long after the invention of the printing press.

Well, I haven't been convinced that Protestants are sola scriptura. There is usage of a source to interpret scripture, which isn't found in scripture.

 

Catholics have confidence that the Holy Spirit guided the Church from the beginning, and still does.

Edited January 3, 2014 by saemo

[why me]

"Mystery", in Catholic usage, does not mean "I dunno". Mystery is a word that Catholics use to describe revelation, in that, God has revealed both His justice and mercy. God has also revealed that His ways are not our ways. We accept what God has revealed, and we seek to do the will of God, not to seek do make God conform to our will. Rejecting what God has revealed, with the excuse that God does not conform to my will, will not save you.

 

D&C 76 does nothing to address the question the caller made in the second video.

However the trinity is also a mystery. Where does that play in to your above post? Thus, mystery also has an unknown quality. I do believe that in this sense a "sacred mystery is public knowledge but cannot be explained by normal rational or scientific means". But it can also be unknown or incomprehensible for human intelligence. Thus, the rosary and the trinity is a mystery.

 

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10662a.htm

 

However, nice try with the justice and mercy part but it does not conform to the link above.

 

And then we have this from the vatican:

 

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p122a3p3.htm

 

Through the mystery of the unknown there is much interpretation just what the mystery means for our lives.

Edited January 3, 2014 by why me

[saemo]

Yes. I made some good catholic friends and the priests were very nice and welcoming. I needed that experience and I still need my catholic friends. They are great people.

 

But the catholics on the catholic apologetic site were so antimormon and so uncharitable and the site itself was so hostile to the mormon church that one must question just what the catholic church has done to such people to make them have such hate and hostility. Especially when they claim to be christian.

 

They seem to have it all turned upside down. They have no mercy, no love, no kindness toward the mormons or toward the mormon church.

So, you think Catholics should be more assertive about hell, but don't want to get your own feelings hurt when the bare truth is given to you? I think you need to make up your mind! Make no mistake, a Catholic who has left the faith has put their soul at risk, particularly when that faith is a non-Christian faith. You can try to worm your way around that all you like, but in the end, it's just you rejecting what the Catholic Church teaches about hell.

[The Nehor]

Catholics are not sola scriptura.

I did not mean to imply they were. I was saying that it seems unlikely that all of the teachings Jesus taught in mortality were preserved when we have so little of them.

[saemo]

However the trinity is also a mystery. Where does that play in to your above post? Thus, mystery also has an unknown quality. I do believe that in this sense a sacred mystery is public knowledge but cannot be explained by normal rational or scientific means. Thus, the rosary and the trinity is a mystery.

 

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10662a.htm

 

However, nice try with the justice and mercy part but it does not conform to the link above.

 

And then we have this from the vatican:

 

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p122a3p3.htm

God has revealed Himself as One. God has revealed Himself as three. AS I SAID, we accept what God has revealed.

[saemo]

I did not mean to imply they were. I was saying that it seems unlikely that all of the teachings Jesus taught in mortality were preserved when we have so little of them.

 

I don't share your view, that what Jesus gave us was "so little".

[Tacenda]

I don't share your view, that what Jesus gave us was "so little".

It seems that's all the non LDS Christians ever talk about, so there must be a-l-o-t He gave! 

[saemo]

It seems that's all the non LDS Christians ever talk about, so there must be a-l-o-t He gave! 

 

 One could spend a lifetime plumbing the depths and never get bored. That is how I see it.

[bluebell]

I don't share your view, that what Jesus gave us was "so little".

 

When you consider that He taught for three years during his mortal ministry, it's not very much (which i guess is the definition of 'little').  You can probably read all his words straight through in a couple of hours.  

 

That would seem to imply (a few hours worth of teachings compared to a three year ministry) that yes, we do have very little of His actual teachings.

 

This does not at all demean the teachings that have been preserved for us, of course.  I'm sure you did not mean to imply that Nehor does not appreciate them as much as you do, as that would not have been a logical interpretation of his post.

[why me]

 One could spend a lifetime plumbing the depths and never get bored. That is how I see it.

That may be true. But if all he gave is just in the gospels, he didn't give much during his 33 years. He was a person of few words. And that was what nehor implied. What we have is what the gospel writers chose to give us. They wrote what they wanted us to know. Christ did not write it. Can we be assured that the gospel writers remembered correctly word for word decades later when they quote christ? The human aspect of christ's life in not mentioned. We have no childhood, no teenage years, no childhood friendship or teenage friendships, no conversations with his mother etc. Historians are quick to point this out. They claim that the narratives are not historical but narrations that have been pieced together. But yes, the gospel writers were geniuses with what they wrote. They gave the early church much to have faith about.

Edited January 3, 2014 by why me

[why me]

When you consider that He taught for three years during his mortal ministry, it's not very much (which i guess is the definition of 'little').  You can probably read all his words straight through in a couple of hours.  

 

That would seem to imply (a few hours worth of teachings compared to a three year ministry) that yes, we do have very little of His actual teachings.

 

This does not at all demean the teachings that have been preserved for us, of course.  I'm sure you did not mean to imply that Nehor does not appreciate them as much as you do, as that would not have been a logical interpretation of his post.

Saemo is here to convert. Her link at the bottom in her signature line is a conversion link. So, her platitudes are very nice and a little condescending, full of good soundbites.

[Stone holm]

It's a little different. Hell is a real place and a place for eternity. For mormons the stress is the degrees of glory. I do hear talks about the degrees of glory. The concept of hell is not that favorable anymore. What we hear is god is love, god is merciful...god's grace etc. If catholics and other christians have a hell concept and those doing sin will go there...it should be talked more about. Why is there so much merciful talk and love talk when hell is real possibility for such christians?

 

With pope francis, we hear much about love and mercy. and it does play well. He has people convinced that all one needs is love and god will be merciful. But that is not enough to get one out of going to hell, if he would speak straight. I have no idea just where hell went in the catholic church.

Not sure that gets you out in our Church either, my guess is you have to belong to a "born again " Evangelical to qualify for that.

[saemo]

That may be true. But if all he gave is just in the gospels, he didn't give much during his 33 years. He was a person of few words. And that was what nehor implied. What we have is what the gospels chose to give us. They wrote what they wanted us to know. Christ did not write it. Can we be assured that the gospel writers remembered correctly word for word decades later when they quote christ? The human aspect of christ's life in not mentioned. We have no childhood, no teenage years, no childhood friendship or teenage friendships, no conversations with his mother etc. Historians are quick to point this out. They claim that the narratives are not historical but narrations that have been pieced together. But yes, the gospel writers were geniuses with what they wrote. They gave the early church much to have faith about.

AS I SAID, I trust that the Holy Spirit has guided Christ's Church continually, since the beginning. It is a matter of faith, but also reason, as I find no reason to believe Christ abandoned His bride. I find no reason to believe truths were lost, to the contrary, I find the evidence for continuity to be convincing.

[The Nehor]

One could spend a lifetime plumbing the depths and never get bored. That is how I see it.

This is true to a degree. I admit if I spent a whole lifetime doing it I would get bored. Humans are not designed for that level of monomania nor do I think God smiles on it. I am grateful for what we have and love it but i want more. Lots more. Part of it is the love of novelty and new things (which is usually innocent but not a good reason for God to deliver) and part of it is a love of God that wants to know better the object of its love (which God delivers on bounteously).

[saemo]

Saemo is here to convert. Her link at the bottom in her signature line is a conversion link. So, her platitudes are very nice and a little condescending, full of good soundbites.

why me, The Magnificent. Will read your mind for freeeeeee.

 

Catholics don't seek to convert Catholics. 

Edited January 3, 2014 by saemo

[saemo]

This is true to a degree. I admit if I spent a whole lifetime doing it I would get bored. Humans are not designed for that level of monomania nor do I think God smiles on it. I am grateful for what we have and love it but i want more. Lots more. Part of it is the love of novelty and new things (which is usually innocent but not a good reason for God to deliver) and part of it is a love of God that wants to know better the object of its love (which God delivers on bounteously).

Eh, well, I view chasing novelty as a sign of not trusting God. Different strokes.